Obesity becoming civil rights issue for some
- Thread starter txsqlchick
- Start date
ShiverMeTimbers
New member
It's a discussion, people ARE allowed to talk about other issues that stem from a posters topic. In this case, airlines and weight were still being discussed, they just weren't being discussed how YOU wanted them to be. If you want it specified you should of said "talk about this only."
Everyone here has stated in one way or not if this is an issue obese people face, among many other issues.
Personally, it is one of the bigger issues, why? Because it's weight actually being a "make it or break it" factor. Too fat to fly? Can't afford to buy two tickets? Ooops, you're shit out of luck. That's one more step to government and business controlling what people are allowed to do or not. The issue really is not paying a higher price, etc. The real issue with the article is how large companies and the such are sticking their nose in people's business.
Which brings us back to a discussion about AIRLINES. No matter whom says what, this particular discussion will always come back around to the airlines themselves. Why should they be able to stick their nose in each persons personal business? How fat is too fat? Should they charge an extra fee instead of making you buy another full price ticket? Why can airlines not come up with a better solution? What determines if someone needs a second seat? Is it the amount of body fat they have? Is it how big their frame is? How much space on either side of them must they take up in order to have to buy another seat? Will airlines start weighing people? What happens if you're traveling with family and a skinny family member doesn't mind sitting next to another member of the family who is large? Will they still have to buy another ticket? The list could go on.
Everyone here has stated in one way or not if this is an issue obese people face, among many other issues.
Personally, it is one of the bigger issues, why? Because it's weight actually being a "make it or break it" factor. Too fat to fly? Can't afford to buy two tickets? Ooops, you're shit out of luck. That's one more step to government and business controlling what people are allowed to do or not. The issue really is not paying a higher price, etc. The real issue with the article is how large companies and the such are sticking their nose in people's business.
Which brings us back to a discussion about AIRLINES. No matter whom says what, this particular discussion will always come back around to the airlines themselves. Why should they be able to stick their nose in each persons personal business? How fat is too fat? Should they charge an extra fee instead of making you buy another full price ticket? Why can airlines not come up with a better solution? What determines if someone needs a second seat? Is it the amount of body fat they have? Is it how big their frame is? How much space on either side of them must they take up in order to have to buy another seat? Will airlines start weighing people? What happens if you're traveling with family and a skinny family member doesn't mind sitting next to another member of the family who is large? Will they still have to buy another ticket? The list could go on.
txsqlchick
New member
Don't tell me how the internet works. I know how it works; I've been using it longer than some of these forum members have been alive. Literally.
You guys can bitch about airlines all you want, but that was not the original subject of discussion and frankly, I'm sick of talking about it.
San2
Mod
I agree with txsqlchick, I think we've come to the point where we are flogging a dead horse. It's quite obvious that we don't agree, so can't we just agree to disagree?
In the end our opinions don't make a difference anyway. The government and the businesses will come to an agreement, and we'll just have to live with it.
Personally, I wouldn't be surprised to see weight limits applying to not just luggage, but passengers as well, in the not so far future. When that happens (not if, when) then everybody over a certain weight will pay extra, no matter if their weight is their fault or nature's.
Unfair? Extremely. The majority pays for the selected few. But oh well....as said, nothing we can do about it anyway. It just sucks.
In the end our opinions don't make a difference anyway. The government and the businesses will come to an agreement, and we'll just have to live with it.
Personally, I wouldn't be surprised to see weight limits applying to not just luggage, but passengers as well, in the not so far future. When that happens (not if, when) then everybody over a certain weight will pay extra, no matter if their weight is their fault or nature's.
Unfair? Extremely. The majority pays for the selected few. But oh well....as said, nothing we can do about it anyway. It just sucks.
You're walking a tight rope with this take. Which is fine, as you said we're all entitled to our own opinions, and I most certainly agree.
That said, obesity costs all of us a lot of money via health care. So by not controlling their weight, are the obese not sticking their nose in my business by affecting what I must pay in health care?
Mind you, this is sooooo not the reason I'm in the weight loss industry and it's not something I feel terribly strong about... I'm just offering a counter to your opinion. And yes, there are many subsets of the population who impact health care costs negatively.
txsqlchick
New member
You're walking a tight rope with this take. Which is fine, as you said we're all entitled to our own opinions, and I most certainly agree.
That said, obesity costs all of us a lot of money via health care. So by not controlling their weight, are the obese not sticking their nose in my business by affecting what I must pay in health care?
Mind you, this is sooooo not the reason I'm in the weight loss industry and it's not something I feel terribly strong about... I'm just offering a counter to your opinion. And yes, there are many subsets of the population who impact health care costs negatively.
Another good point.
ChefChiTown
New member
You said all that stuff about how you have connections to people in the airline industry and that you know a lot more than the people here, then you followed that up by making 2 long posts, which pretty much defended the airliner charging for two seats, but...you're "not playing?" Ok...
The article you posted had to do with equal rights. The airplane seat thing is just one example of what obese people could be reaching for during their quest to obtain equal rights.
But, no...the biggest issue obese people face is their obesity. As much as I disagree with airliners charging obese people for two seats, it's not going to kill them; their obesity might.
Technically, I'm obese and I won't deny it (my BMI is 41.85 at the moment). I know damn well that my weight can end up being a bigger problem than it currently is. The only negative things that my weight has brought upon me are little things (getting tired after walking up a flight of stairs, sore back, etc), but I know that my obesity can kill me one day, via - heart attack.
So, I think that the biggest problem that obese people have is their weight and their struggle to lose it.
You're walking a tight rope with this take. Which is fine, as you said we're all entitled to our own opinions, and I most certainly agree.
That said, obesity costs all of us a lot of money via health care. So by not controlling their weight, are the obese not sticking their nose in my business by affecting what I must pay in health care?
Mind you, this is sooooo not the reason I'm in the weight loss industry and it's not something I feel terribly strong about... I'm just offering a counter to your opinion. And yes, there are many subsets of the population who impact health care costs negatively.
I'm glad you said that, because every single person effects the price of your health care. Just like every single person effects your car insurance, life insurance, etc.
I'm not as dumb as I might look.
Now if we're talking about relative costs or weighted costs... that's the matter that should be emphasized IMO. Not that everyone has an effect.
G
Guest
Guest
This is not logical, you cannot share a seat belt no matter how long it is. It's not safe.
Agreed. Everyone has these.
It's not a competition. It's a discussion. And knowing with any discussion there will usually be both sides. With both sides come opposing stand points. Neither right or wrong. Since it is a public forum, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, whether or not it may beat something to death in a different direction. If one cannot handle a discussion, one may opt out of it.
maverick2
New member
My take, blunt as it is:
- I do not like to sit next to fat people on planes. Their fluff invades my personal bubble. If you are fat to the point that you cannot avoid touching a complete stranger on mass transportation, you should have to buy two tickets. Coach is uncomfortable enough without having some random person's gut resting on you. Also, flying is already scary. Let's keep the load as light as possible, shall we?
- Having to pay health care for irresponsible people like this chick pisses me off royally: To me, it's like having to pay for the health care of a crackhead. Why should I be expected to help someone unwilling to help themselves?
I have no problem paying for weight loss incentive programs and preventative nutrition/fitness programs. But I'll be damned if I'll support my taxes paying for their gastric bypass (or their triple heart bypass) when it's not going to stop them from cramming Mickey D's down their gullet every day. Fat isn't a condition, it's a lifestyle choice that you make every time you sit down to a meal (hell, any time you sit down period when you could be doing something active instead).
- The obesity acceptance movement is to me as stupid and damaging as the pro anorexia movement. Both promote a lifestyle which proves fatal for a lot of people. Morbidly fat AND thin people are equally unattractive and unhealthy. I don't think that all women should go around as a size 0, but I don't think all women should go around as a size 16, either.
- "Individuals ... who are discriminated against because of their weight are more likely to engage in unhealthy eating behaviors and avoidance of physical activity." (Puhl)
Total cop-out.
In summary: I think people should take responsibility for their own lives instead of making excuses and expecting people to fall all over themselves to accomodate what is in almost all cases a self-imposed condition (I am not talking about big, broad and tall people - I am talking about fat people).
Yes, I'm fat, and I don't want to be treated like sh*t any more than anyone else does. But if I was so fat I was hanging over the seat, I'd buy two. If I couldn't fit into the roller coaster harness, I wouldn't sue - I just wouldn't ride.
My parents are also overweight and I have seen first-hand the toll it has taken on their health. Both have had multiple surgeries of the neck and lower back. Both can't make it up the stairs without being out of breath or work out in the yard for the afternoon without being in serious states of exhaustion and pain afterwards. I worry perpetually that they will keel over of a coronary. They take prescription medication for pain and acid reflux constantly. They pop antacids like candy.
People who tell you to lose weight are not trying to discriminate against you. They are trying to save your life.
Digging your grave with a knife and fork is a cliched expression, but for many people it's almost certainly true as well.
Race is a civil rights issue. Religion is a civil rights issue. Sexual orientation is a civil rights issue. These are things which either a) cannot be changed, or b) should not be subject to the interference of unconcerned parties.
Fat is not a civil rights issue to me, and to call it one cheapens real civil rights issues in my opinion. There are MUCH bigger civil rights issues to worry about in the United States right now than whether or not fat people have to pay for two seats on a plane...or a few extra bucks per paycheck on their health insurance.
Ce la vie.
- I do not like to sit next to fat people on planes. Their fluff invades my personal bubble. If you are fat to the point that you cannot avoid touching a complete stranger on mass transportation, you should have to buy two tickets. Coach is uncomfortable enough without having some random person's gut resting on you. Also, flying is already scary. Let's keep the load as light as possible, shall we?
- Having to pay health care for irresponsible people like this chick pisses me off royally: To me, it's like having to pay for the health care of a crackhead. Why should I be expected to help someone unwilling to help themselves?
I have no problem paying for weight loss incentive programs and preventative nutrition/fitness programs. But I'll be damned if I'll support my taxes paying for their gastric bypass (or their triple heart bypass) when it's not going to stop them from cramming Mickey D's down their gullet every day. Fat isn't a condition, it's a lifestyle choice that you make every time you sit down to a meal (hell, any time you sit down period when you could be doing something active instead).
- The obesity acceptance movement is to me as stupid and damaging as the pro anorexia movement. Both promote a lifestyle which proves fatal for a lot of people. Morbidly fat AND thin people are equally unattractive and unhealthy. I don't think that all women should go around as a size 0, but I don't think all women should go around as a size 16, either.
- "Individuals ... who are discriminated against because of their weight are more likely to engage in unhealthy eating behaviors and avoidance of physical activity." (Puhl)
Total cop-out.
In summary: I think people should take responsibility for their own lives instead of making excuses and expecting people to fall all over themselves to accomodate what is in almost all cases a self-imposed condition (I am not talking about big, broad and tall people - I am talking about fat people).
Yes, I'm fat, and I don't want to be treated like sh*t any more than anyone else does. But if I was so fat I was hanging over the seat, I'd buy two. If I couldn't fit into the roller coaster harness, I wouldn't sue - I just wouldn't ride.
My parents are also overweight and I have seen first-hand the toll it has taken on their health. Both have had multiple surgeries of the neck and lower back. Both can't make it up the stairs without being out of breath or work out in the yard for the afternoon without being in serious states of exhaustion and pain afterwards. I worry perpetually that they will keel over of a coronary. They take prescription medication for pain and acid reflux constantly. They pop antacids like candy.
People who tell you to lose weight are not trying to discriminate against you. They are trying to save your life.
Digging your grave with a knife and fork is a cliched expression, but for many people it's almost certainly true as well.
Race is a civil rights issue. Religion is a civil rights issue. Sexual orientation is a civil rights issue. These are things which either a) cannot be changed, or b) should not be subject to the interference of unconcerned parties.
Fat is not a civil rights issue to me, and to call it one cheapens real civil rights issues in my opinion. There are MUCH bigger civil rights issues to worry about in the United States right now than whether or not fat people have to pay for two seats on a plane...or a few extra bucks per paycheck on their health insurance.
Ce la vie.
ChefChiTown
New member
I won't go into it in this thread (as it's WAY off topic), but I've seen people's sexual orientations change right in front of my eyes. So, personally, I don't believe that a person's sexual orientation is something that doesn't change.
ChefChiTown
New member
Oh C'MON Chi, that was just a drunken fling. You promised not to tell anyone...
Is this where I say, "But, a hole is a hole"...???
txsqlchick
New member
THUNDEROUS APPLAUSE. Couldn't agree more!
anewaj
New member
I read this earlier and was pretty disgusted with the idea... yeah, I'm not skinny, but I'm working on it.
I came out of the gym today (it's right across from McDonalds) and saw this huge lady walking with a cane towards the entrance. Doesn't seem you can be healthy if you're morbidly obese.
I came out of the gym today (it's right across from McDonalds) and saw this huge lady walking with a cane towards the entrance. Doesn't seem you can be healthy if you're morbidly obese.
txsqlchick
New member
I can see that airplane seats are a BIG issue for some people, though I cannot really fathom why since most people don't fly all that frequently unless they have to travel for work.
I suppose it's a verifiable form of "discrimination" when other forms of discrimination against the obese are more subtle and more difficult to prove, so I guess the "fat acceptance" movement is going to ride the airplane seat thing to death.
However, it's far from the most insidious form of discrimination against the obese. FAR. FROM. IT. Obesity not only costs you more in healthcare...it can cost you raises, promotions, or even your job. Statistically speaking, obese people make less than their similarly-qualified counterparts in a wide range of professions, and it takes them longer on average to secure permanent employment. I've been lucky in that my obesity did not really seem to hold me back, though the ramped-up professional success I've enjoyed recently has only occurred after I was no longer obese....so who knows.
Also, nobody has really addressed whether obesity deserves the same protection from discrimination as disability, religion, race, gender, or sexual orientation. Some people think obesity is a disability. I disagree. A disability by definition is something you can't help and/or can't do anything about. If you were born with only one leg, that's a disability, even though it may not hinder you in your day to day life due to adaptations you've made. You can't grow a new leg. No lifestyle change you make will cause a leg to magically appear where there isn't one. You can use a prosthetic, but I've known amputees before and sometimes prosthetics can cause as many problems as they solve.
On the other hand, obesity is something most people can help unless they've let it get to the point where they cannot move. Even then, they have people in their lives enabling them....if they were fed a healthy diet, they would lose weight even if they couldn't exercise. Just look at that guy in Monterrey in Mexico (can't remember his name) who has lost hundreds of pounds while bed-bound....mainly through modifying his diet.
I suppose whether obesity is a disability to you depends on what's more important in your opinion: whether the disability can be remedied/eliminated, or the effects of it.
I'd rather address THAT than airplane seats. Humor me.
I suppose it's a verifiable form of "discrimination" when other forms of discrimination against the obese are more subtle and more difficult to prove, so I guess the "fat acceptance" movement is going to ride the airplane seat thing to death.
However, it's far from the most insidious form of discrimination against the obese. FAR. FROM. IT. Obesity not only costs you more in healthcare...it can cost you raises, promotions, or even your job. Statistically speaking, obese people make less than their similarly-qualified counterparts in a wide range of professions, and it takes them longer on average to secure permanent employment. I've been lucky in that my obesity did not really seem to hold me back, though the ramped-up professional success I've enjoyed recently has only occurred after I was no longer obese....so who knows.
Also, nobody has really addressed whether obesity deserves the same protection from discrimination as disability, religion, race, gender, or sexual orientation. Some people think obesity is a disability. I disagree. A disability by definition is something you can't help and/or can't do anything about. If you were born with only one leg, that's a disability, even though it may not hinder you in your day to day life due to adaptations you've made. You can't grow a new leg. No lifestyle change you make will cause a leg to magically appear where there isn't one. You can use a prosthetic, but I've known amputees before and sometimes prosthetics can cause as many problems as they solve.
On the other hand, obesity is something most people can help unless they've let it get to the point where they cannot move. Even then, they have people in their lives enabling them....if they were fed a healthy diet, they would lose weight even if they couldn't exercise. Just look at that guy in Monterrey in Mexico (can't remember his name) who has lost hundreds of pounds while bed-bound....mainly through modifying his diet.
I suppose whether obesity is a disability to you depends on what's more important in your opinion: whether the disability can be remedied/eliminated, or the effects of it.
I'd rather address THAT than airplane seats. Humor me.
maverick2
New member
I'm one of these people. I have only had to fly twice in my whole life. But the airplane seat point I was making really applies to ANY public situation. I don't want to be jostled by the super-obese person on the bus or crammed in next to them on the subway. I don't want to be shoved in close to ANYONE because I'm a fairly aloof person, but if I have to be, I'd rather they weren't so large that they could not help but touch me.
Americans in general are a non-contact culture as far as personal space goes. We put an empty seat between us at the movie theater and an empty urinal between us in the bathroom (when possible). The average personal space "bubble" for an American is, anthropologically speaking, 1.5-4 feet. Obese people are often put into public situations where they cannot help but invade that personal space.
If I had to put myself in the shoes of a corporate manager, I will always choose the fit and "put-together" person over the obese person every time. Because I'm disgusted with fat people? No. The reason I would do this is because outward appearance reflects inward mentality. When I look at an overweight person (including myself) I see lack of discipline, lack of initiative, lack of follow-through - weakness, not to put too fine a point on it.
When I see someone who is fit, I automatically assume that she is not only capable of handling her professional life, she also has enough time management skills to be able to run her life on an even keel outside of work. I see someone I would not have to constantly prod to get things done. People who are physically fit are happier, less stressed, more productive, more energetic, more pleasing to look at, and generally nicer to be around. They have better self-esteem and are more likely to be assertive in the workplace, rather than passive-aggressive. There have been studies that show people who are physically fit show a significantly higher job satisfaction than those who do not. (Probably all those extra endorphins.)
It doesn't, in my opinion. People in denial about their lifestyle choices throw around genetics, thyroid problems, and all manner of excuses about their weight, but the truth that I know is this: I have been alive almost twenty-four years and in that entire time, I have never known a single person who was not directly responsible for their own obesity. Not a single one. But all of them have had plenty of excuses, including myself - tired from work, can't afford the gym, no extra time, can't cook, runs in the family, large frame, blah blah blah.
That dog just doesn't hunt for me. Not anymore.
There is a high-school wrestler in Georgia with no arms and legs. There are deaf musicians and blind painters. These people have disabilities with no hope of permanent solution for their problems, so they have learned not only to adapt, but excel.
Overweight people, on the other hand, have an even greater level of adaptation available to them, and with just a decision to change their lifestyles, the transformation is often dramatic. People have reversed their weight-related diabetes in a matter of months through diet change alone. People in this very community have lost hundreds of pounds through nothing but the sheer strength of their will, even those who have been told by doctors that they would be dead in a matter of years (or months) if they did not take care of themselves.
If those fine determined souls can do it, I have almost no sympathy for those who will not even deign to try.
To me, these acts of discrimination are not discrimination at all. They are the consequence of personal decision.
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ChefChiTown
New member
Religion is a choice. You choose what religion you want to believe in and follow (in the United States anyway). Even though religion is a choice, people who practice religion have obtained equal rights and then some. Hell, religious organizations get tax breaks just for being a religious organization, even if they do absolutely no good for society. Nobody can make a person follow a certain religion and nobody has to even be religious in the first place. Yet, those people are given more rights than the average Joe, even though it's a lifestyle choice.
Equal rights are given to people based on their religion (which is a choice - something that can be changed), so why shouldn't equal rights be given to people who are obese (something that can be changed)...???
Food for thought.
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ChefChiTown
New member
Religion is the most influential thing in the entire world, so...yes.
When churches are built in your neighborhood, it effects your housing costs, mortgage rates, property taxes and the re-sale value of your house. Religions also get tax breaks, which costs the US government money. How does the government make up that "missing" money? By taxing you and I more.
Wars are fought over religion all over the world. The United States assists various countries during their wars by providing soldiers, weapons and money. Who pays for that? You and I, with our tax dollars.
People in certain religions can't/don't eat certain foods and observe various holidays.
In regards to the food: Restaurants, hotels, airliners and other venues that serve food have to accomodate for those needs. That makes those establishments take on extra cost, as they have to carry menu options that they normally wouldn't. How do they make up for those extra costs? By raising the prices of all the meals, including yours and mine.
In regards to the holidays: If someone is Jewish, for example, and can't work during a Jewish holiday, those hours need to be made up somehow. If you work for a company that employs people who take off a lot of days for religious beliefs, you, or someone else, will probably get stuck covering for them. Yes, that might put a little more money in your pocket, but it's also taking you away from your wife, kids, friends and family.