Obesity becoming civil rights issue for some

[Blancita]

I have a kid.

I would never be so irresponsible to hold it on my lap during take-off and landing.

I happily paid for the second seat and even the baby seat I needed to rent so she could be safe and sound the whole flight.

And kid's meals are smaller than adult meals, hence the lower price. There are no children's seats in an airplane, thus the comparison is limping a tiny bit.

I have travelled with my daughter many times without my H so there is no way I could carry my daughter and everything else on board, plus a large heavy car seat. In all the flights I have taken, I have never seen a child strapped into a car seat, so maybe that's more common where you're from.. The airlines' protocal is that you hold your child so it can't be that dangerous or they wouldn't allow it. Then again, its dangerous to cross the street too! Absolutely ANYTHING can happen!

As to lower prices of children's meals, it is well known that the cost of the food is the least of a restaurant's expenses, hence why it has cost restaurants little to increase our portion sizes dramatically over the years. Lower price children's meals is a business decision, a way to get families to come out. Has nothing to do with saving a few pennies on the actual food. So what about half prices for kids at movies etc, or seniors paying less on the bus -- aren't those groups using the same one seat that an adult who is not a senior would use? So why do they pay less? Because someone decided it was a good idea, for whatever reason, to charge less. It is not out of the realm of reality that airlines would also take the opposite approach to what they seem to be increasingly be taking.

 

[wishes]

Whilst i realize Steve understands what 'eating healthy' is and thinks that everyone should eat healthy because then they will loose the weight etc.
I think, as a former seriously obese person, that half my problem was that i didnt KNOW what that was.

As an example. my friend is skinny as a rake and apparently eat as much as she wants of all sorts of bad foods. Apon watching her she loads up her plate, shares with husband or kids, decides food isnt up to her standerds, or she had a large lunch, or even that shes plain hungry.
Shes kidding herself of course, she eats less than a rabbit in reality. Her mother on the other hand is very fat. Her mother, everyone agrees, doesnt eat much at all! she eats salads all the time and very healthy apart from the odd muffin at work or biscuits.
Apon watching carefully, she does have salads and what most people would term 'healthy' food. She has a huge salad thats slathered in mayo or oil, and an entire avacado on the side. She might be eating 'healthy' , and even the correct foods (and good oils to boot!), however she still doesnt understand properly that a snack of a cup of nuts is too much.

Obesity is a self inflicted condition, not an illness you "suffer" from. If you cant read then you go to school and get educated. If you don't understand why you are fat you go read some books, or talk to somebody who knows and can teach you.

If you choose not to do this and remain fat, then why should an airline have to carry the cost of that extra seat they can no longer sell? And airline is a company, they are there to make money to pay employees. They budget to sell say 300 seats in a craft and because they get say 100 overweight people, they can only really get 200 people on. This means they are loosing money, cant pay wages and other niceties. Just because a person is slim does not mean that you can fit 2 people in the seat does it?

Anyway, thats my views on it. And to be fair, when i was overweight, i would have paid for 2 seats had i required 2 seats.

 

[txsqlchick]

Religion is a choice. You choose what religion you want to believe in and follow (in the United States anyway). Even though religion is a choice, people who practice religion have obtained equal rights and then some. Hell, religious organizations get tax breaks just for being a religious organization, even if they do absolutely no good for society. Nobody can make a person follow a certain religion and nobody has to even be religious in the first place. Yet, those people are given more rights than the average Joe, even though it's a lifestyle choice.

Equal rights are given to people based on their religion (which is a choice - something that can be changed), so why shouldn't equal rights be given to people who are obese (something that can be changed)...???

Food for thought.

You do and you don't. Usually the religion you "choose" is what's forced on you and you're kept in it by peer/family pressure.

Also, there are some religions that you don't choose. Take for example Judaism. You can become a "Jew by choice" these days, but even Jewish people admit that if you're born Jewish, you're still Jewish...even if you're atheist and haven't set foot inside a synagogue in decades. People talk about being "half Jewish" and having a single Jewish ancestor would make you Jewish in Nazi Germany. Choice? Hardly.

I think you are assuming that the world...including this country...is more enlightened than it really is by likening the ease of "choosing" a religion to picking out a good melon at the supermarket.

 

[txsqlchick]

The airlines could be even more profitable if they would simply shrink those seats even smaller so that even mildly overweight people wont fit without having to buy 2 or more seats. Whose to say that the seat size they chose is realistic or is the proper standard? On the other hand, I would be pissed if I'm getting squeezed by another person who is encroaching into my own seat that I paid for because they can't fit into theirs. A tricky debate..

As to being required to pay for a seat for your baby, in the US you generally pay if your kid is over 2 years old. If they are younger, you are expected to hold them on your lap, which I have done on full flights and did not use an extra free seat. So why should I have to pay for my baby when she is on my lap and not using an extra seat? Whomever is against the fare waiver for children under 2, have yourself a kid and see how quickly you change your mind. And why shouldn't the airlines make a business decision that they are OK with giving away free flights to children under 2, its not a law as far as I know, its the airlines decision and I wonder why people have a problem with it. Do you have a problem with kids meals at restaurants? They're usually cheaper..

It was me, and I won't have a child simply to see what it's like to have to buy an extra seat.

My brother has a son and he has always had his own seat while flying. Why? Because it's safer. My brother and his ex-wife both think the extra cost is worth not having to live with themselves if, by some chance, there's a mishap and their son is killed simply because they didn't want to fork out for an extra seat.

If I ever have a child, which is pretty fucking unlikely seeing as I'm 33 and dateless, I'll pop for the extra seat. And thanks for rubbing it in.

 

[ChefChiTown]

You do and you don't. Usually the religion you "choose" is what's forced on you and you're kept in it by peer/family pressure.

Also, there are some religions that you don't choose. Take for example Judaism. You can become a "Jew by choice" these days, but even Jewish people admit that if you're born Jewish, you're still Jewish...even if you're atheist and haven't set foot inside a synagogue in decades. People talk about being "half Jewish" and having a single Jewish ancestor would make you Jewish in Nazi Germany. Choice? Hardly.

I think you are assuming that the world...including this country...is more enlightened than it really is by likening the ease of "choosing" a religion to picking out a good melon at the supermarket.

What religion are you, if any?

I was taken to church as a child. My parents are religious and have been Christian for as long as I can remember. But, I'm not Christian. I'm not Jewish. I'm not Buddhist. I'm not religious at all. Why? Because, religion is a choice. Whether or not it's tradition for your family to force it upon you, nobody is making you follow anybody else's beliefs. That is a personal choice that is made within yourself.

Skin color? Not a choice.
Sex? Not a choice.
Hair color? Not a choice.
The sound of your voice? Not a choice.
Religion? Choice.

 

[San2]

I have travelled with my daughter many times without my H so there is no way I could carry my daughter and everything else on board, plus a large heavy car seat. In all the flights I have taken, I have never seen a child strapped into a car seat, so maybe that's more common where you're from.. The airlines' protocal is that you hold your child so it can't be that dangerous or they wouldn't allow it. Then again, its dangerous to cross the street too! Absolutely ANYTHING can happen!

As to lower prices of children's meals, it is well known that the cost of the food is the least of a restaurant's expenses, hence why it has cost restaurants little to increase our portion sizes dramatically over the years. Lower price children's meals is a business decision, a way to get families to come out. Has nothing to do with saving a few pennies on the actual food. So what about half prices for kids at movies etc, or seniors paying less on the bus -- aren't those groups using the same one seat that an adult who is not a senior would use? So why do they pay less? Because someone decided it was a good idea, for whatever reason, to charge less. It is not out of the realm of reality that airlines would also take the opposite approach to what they seem to be increasingly be taking.

How you handle your child is your decision, I am not going into that.

The reason for the airline's protocol is that if you hold your child on your lap, they won't have to give you another seat for free. They can just sell it to a paying customer instead. Plus, if you read the fine print, if you decide to hold your child on your lap, and anything happens, it is entirely your own responsibility, and not the airlines'. If it was on it's own seat, it would be the airlines'. THAT is why they allow it, even encourage it.

And I doubt half prices for children were the businesses idea. I am assuming they just didn't want to have to face the constant moaning and whining of people having to pay full price for their children, and the government put their ever present foot down and decided that for whatever reason, a child should pay less for the same thing.

 

[San2]

Skin color? Not a choice.
Sex? Not a choice.
Hair color? Not a choice.
The sound of your voice? Not a choice.
Religion? Choice.

..................

 

[txsqlchick]

What religion are you, if any?

I was taken to church as a child. My parents are religious and have been Christian for as long as I can remember. But, I'm not Christian. I'm not Jewish. I'm not Buddhist. I'm not religious at all. Why? Because, religion is a choice. Whether or not it's tradition for your family to force it upon you, nobody is making you follow anybody else's beliefs. That is a personal choice that is made within yourself.

Skin color? Not a choice.
Sex? Not a choice.
Hair color? Not a choice.
The sound of your voice? Not a choice.
Religion? Choice.

I disagree. Given that even in this country you can be killed if you leave the Islamic faith (if your family is thusly motivated), I don't believe that we have achieved true religious freedom. People are still defined by the religion they grow up with. People refer to me as Catholic even though I haven't set foot inside a Catholic church since college. I know atheists who refer to themselves as Jewish. Etc. Not a choice. It's not so black and white.

 

[ShiverMeTimbers]

I disagree. Given that even in this country you can be killed if you leave the Islamic faith (if your family is thusly motivated), I don't believe that we have achieved true religious freedom. People are still defined by the religion they grow up with. People refer to me as Catholic even though I haven't set foot inside a Catholic church since college. I know atheists who refer to themselves as Jewish. Etc. Not a choice. It's not so black and white.

Religion is a choice in a country that has freedom. Like America.
Regardless of what the Islamic do to their own people, we're still in a country where we have choices. Islamic faith is from another country. America is backed by Christianity [for majority sake], we don't exactly kill people for being Christian, Catholic, Buddhist, or Mormon here.
I was brought up Christian, I refuse to pick one religion.
People want to say a Jewish person will always be Jewish, no a Jewish person can renounce their faith, it's their family,usually, that wont acknowledge that they have. Family and religion is less of a choice then the choice to pick your own individual religion.
How many of us were brought up in one religion, but we feel differently within ourselves, but people say we're such and such a religion because our parents are? I know that's the case with me and many others.

Things will never be black and white, but we all have choices. Everytime we wake up, we have a choice. Every minute of our lives is built upon choices. And if I happen to decide to switch religions, regardless of what the world around me says I am or should be, I made a choice of my own freewill.

You cannot possibly ever convince me that religion isn't a choice.

 

[txsqlchick]

Religion is a choice in a country that has freedom. Like America.
Regardless of what the Islamic do to their own people, we're still in a country where we have choices. Islamic faith is from another country. America is backed by Christianity [for majority sake], we don't exactly kill people for being Christian, Catholic, Buddhist, or Mormon here.
I was brought up Christian, I refuse to pick one religion.
People want to say a Jewish person will always be Jewish, no a Jewish person can renounce their faith, it's their family,usually, that wont acknowledge that they have. Family and religion is less of a choice then the choice to pick your own individual religion.
How many of us were brought up in one religion, but we feel differently within ourselves, but people say we're such and such a religion because our parents are? I know that's the case with me and many others.

Things will never be black and white, but we all have choices. Everytime we wake up, we have a choice. Every minute of our lives is built upon choices. And if I happen to decide to switch religions, regardless of what the world around me says I am or should be, I made a choice of my own freewill.

You cannot possibly ever convince me that religion isn't a choice.

Again, I disagree. In some respects, religion is a choice...but in others, it isn't.

For example, I cannot choose to be Catholic. Why? Because I don't BELIEVE in Christianity. I can't force myself to believe it. So, fundamentally, I can't choose to be Catholic.

I don't think anyone chooses what they believe. You can't make yourself believe in god. You can't make yourself believe in the Holy Trinity, even if you WANTED to. It would be fake. That's not really a choice.

You have the legal freedom to act upon what your beliefs are, but I don't believe that you CHOOSE your beliefs. Also, while you have the legal freedom to act upon your beliefs, i.e. to practice a religion or NOT to practice a religion, societal pressure is still intense in many parts of the country and among many religious/ethnic groups to remain in the group you were raised with.

I don't believe that someone's religious beliefs are a choice any more than someone's sexual orientation is a choice.

 

[stancel]

I think that most depression in obese people is caused by how they feel about themselves....I mean, yes people can be ridiculously insensitive when it comes to weight, but when it comes to my experiences, I can't speak for fat people in general, but I feel bad about my weight. And I did become interested in the whole fat acceptance thing, but it's not for me. I want to think of myself as attractive, and I can't do that if I'm fat. Even if some chubby chaser type can.

There's a lot of demonization of fat people, and that's what I don't like, and it comes down to BMI all the time, what many people don't know is that the National Institutes of Health lowered the limit for a "healthy" BMI from 27.8 to 24.9. What this meant was 30 million people, about 10% of the entire US population, were now overweight because of that decision. So that kinda puts things into perspective, "the obesity epidemic" is very overblown, you'd be silly to think that fat people aren't a minority because they most certainly are. Sometimes I feel like the only fat person around.

 

[Steve]

Whilst i realize Steve understands what 'eating healthy' is and thinks that everyone should eat healthy because then they will loose the weight etc.
I think, as a former seriously obese person, that half my problem was that i didnt KNOW what that was.

Right, education is a huge part of the process for some. I don't expect to tell my clients, "you have to start eating healthy" and have them actually follow through.

For most, it requires a relatively lengthy stint of appropriate education as well as some accounting of one's perceptions, beliefs and thoughts.

This is the easiest of cases.

Not everyone is in chronic excess of calories though, b/c of being misinformed or uneducated.

The driving force can be something psychological, which has been brought up in this thread... and it's something I can certainly attest to in my experience.

It's such a delicate line though since many people jump at the chance to push ownership of the problem onto some other, outside force.

Rightfully so as who in their right mind wants to own up to something that has caused so much negativity in one's life? But for those who don't have true psychosis fueling the disordered eating... owning up to the responsibility and doing what has to be done to right the issues is the only solution.

And what has to be done to right the issue is extremely individual, IMO.

 

[San2]

I think practicing a certain religion is a choice. I was brought up by catholic grandparents, then had protestant religious education in school (until it was decided that RE can't be a mandatory course anymore). Most of my friends as a kid were turkish, so I learned about Muslims, and read the Koran. I read the bible (the several versions that are around - catholic, jewish, jehova's witnesses, protestant and a few others), and informed myself about Buddhism, Paganism and a load of other isms out there.

What did it lead to? At the age of 16, I made the conscious choice not to believe in any of it. I do not believe in god(s) of any kind, period. There isn't a single religion that I could practice without it clashing, at some point, with my personal views and opinions. So I decided that I wouldn't believe in any of it. To this day, I am getting a lot of stick about it from certain people. 'You don't believe in GOD?' - looking at me as if I suddenly sprouted a second head. Nope, I don't. Get over it. And don't preach to me, I am not interested.

Now on the other hand, if I had wanted to practice any of those religions I studied, that would have been my choice as well. I would have been aware that certain religions come with certain disadvantages (Jehova's witnessess anybody??), so by practicing my religion, I would have chosen to deal with whatever comes with it.

Jews? How do you know what religion anybody is by just looking at them? I can't, unless that person is wearing a cross, or a veil, or some other outward sign of what religion they belong to. Which again, is a choice the person in question makes. If they want to show their religious beliefs to everybody, that is their choice, but then they have to deal with the fact that certain people will have certain opinions about them. Again, a conscious choice they make.

Social pressure is certainly an issue, but once more, it comes down to your choice if you give into it, or stand up against it.

I know there are extreme cases where standing up could cost a person their life, but usually that is applicable to more than just religious choices. There are countries in which, by law, women can be stoned to death if they leave their house while menstruating, and where men are required to take their own daughters virginity. So....religion is probably not the first thing on the agenda there anyway.

 

[txsqlchick]

I think practicing a certain religion is a choice. I was brought up by catholic grandparents, then had protestant religious education in school (until it was decided that RE can't be a mandatory course anymore). Most of my friends as a kid were turkish, so I learned about Muslims, and read the Koran. I read the bible (the several versions that are around - catholic, jewish, jehova's witnesses, protestant and a few others), and informed myself about Buddhism, Paganism and a load of other isms out there.

What did it lead to? At the age of 16, I made the conscious choice not to believe in any of it. I do not believe in god(s) of any kind, period. There isn't a single religion that I could practice without it clashing, at some point, with my personal views and opinions. So I decided that I wouldn't believe in any of it. To this day, I am getting a lot of stick about it from certain people. 'You don't believe in GOD?' - looking at me as if I suddenly sprouted a second head. Nope, I don't. Get over it. And don't preach to me, I am not interested.

Now on the other hand, if I had wanted to practice any of those religions I studied, that would have been my choice as well. I would have been aware that certain religions come with certain disadvantages (Jehova's witnessess anybody??), so by practicing my religion, I would have chosen to deal with whatever comes with it.

Jews? How do you know what religion anybody is by just looking at them? I can't, unless that person is wearing a cross, or a veil, or some other outward sign of what religion they belong to. Which again, is a choice the person in question makes. If they want to show their religious beliefs to everybody, that is their choice, but then they have to deal with the fact that certain people will have certain opinions about them. Again, a conscious choice they make.

Social pressure is certainly an issue, but once more, it comes down to your choice if you give into it, or stand up against it.

I know there are extreme cases where standing up could cost a person their life, but usually that is applicable to more than just religious choices. There are countries in which, by law, women can be stoned to death if they leave their house while menstruating, and where men are required to take their own daughters virginity. So....religion is probably not the first thing on the agenda there anyway.

Sorry San; I usually agree with you, but I don't agree with you on this.

You don't choose to believe/not believe in something. Either you believe or you don't. You can choose how to act on those beliefs, but you do not choose your beliefs.

As for Jewish people...uh...you can often tell if someone is Jewish simply by watching them or listening to them. I grew up in a majority Jewish neighborhood and can often recognize Jewish people by their gestures or the cadence of their speech. Sometimes I can even accurately pinpoint whether they're Reform or Conservative (the Orthodox ones are easy). It's not just a religion; it's a culture too. You can "choose" to walk away from that if you find your beliefs are no longer compatible, but you'll never convince me that someone ever stops being Jewish. Here's what's even weirder...we have Jewish ancestors but our Slavic ancestors converted (or were forced to convert) at least 150 years ago. I'm frequently mistaken for being Jewish. Is it simply because I'm a product of my environment? Or is it due to my appearance? Who knows? Doesn't matter to me, because I'm not insulted by people assuming I'm Jewish.

Muslims...whole other kettle of fish. Apostasy is still a capital offense in many Islamic/Arab countries, and American Muslims are not very tolerant of it. There have been cases in the United States and Europe where apostates have been killed by their families or peer groups. Free to choose? Not if it's going to cost you your life. Doesn't matter if the laws of the land "guarantee" your freedom to choose if you're killed by your family for "choosing". And even if they're prosecuted (which they usually aren't in the ME and aren't always in the West), it does YOU no good...you're still dead.

I think people really do have this wrong.

 

[San2]

Hey, I don't expect you to agree with me all the time.

As for the religion, we'll just have to agree to disagree there. It's a dangerous topic anyway. We could discuss it until we are blue in the face, and not get any closer to agreeing than we were at the beginning.

I firmly believe that everything in my life is down to choice. The only thing I HAVE to do at some point is to die, and that's okay. Everything else I can influence in some shape, form or fashion. *I* meaning me, I know it doesn't go for everybody else unfortunately. But more often than not, people who claim that they don't have a choice in a matter, in fact do have one, and are just too scared or plain lazy to take it.

I pity those people, I really do.

 

[ChefChiTown]

I disagree. Given that even in this country you can be killed if you leave the Islamic faith (if your family is thusly motivated), I don't believe that we have achieved true religious freedom. People are still defined by the religion they grow up with. People refer to me as Catholic even though I haven't set foot inside a Catholic church since college. I know atheists who refer to themselves as Jewish. Etc. Not a choice. It's not so black and white.

By "in this country", do you mean the United States? I'm sure it has happened on very, very, very few occasions, but please point me in the direction of ONE instance where someone has been killed for leaving the Islamic faith in the United States.

No, people aren't defined by what religion they grow up with. I've heard countless stories and know numerous people who grew up as a Catholic and, as they got older, converted to a different religion. People often convert to a different religion before they get married as well, because they're not bound by the religion that good old Mom and Dad taught them as a child. Religion is a choice in this country, which is why so many people risk their lives to come to the United States...religious freedom.

Also, a lot of people who follow religion don't even follow the rules of their religion like they are "supposed" to, according to their respective religion's guidelines. Muslims who drink, Jews who eat pork, Christians who commit adultery, etc. That happens because they made the choice to do so. If religion wasn't a choice, then they would be 100% bound by their religion and their religion's rules. Yet, there are countless examples of people who defy their religion, in one form or another. Why? Because, it's a choice that they made.

 

[maverick2]

I don't see what the right to religious freedom has to do with the right to being morbidly obese is. I guess in all the hairsplitting I am missing the ultimate point.

I don't care if anyone else is fat. I just don't want to be inconvenienced by it or have to pay taxes for it, because it's not my responsibility. Maybe it is an underlying societal problem that needs to be addressed (in America, where the idolized women's figure is a size 0 and the average female figure is a size 16 and people pay money to be walking billboards for McDonald's by wearing Walmart-made tee-shirts with the golden arches on them, this is obviously the case) but I still hold to my belief that obesity is ultimately a choice made. Even if that choice is NOT to be fit, instead of the choice to be fat.

Yeah, obesity denotes a lack of psychological control, just like drug addiction does. But I don't think fat people should be enabled any more than heroin addicts should. And they certainly shouldn't be glamorized or catered to. Nor should they be treated like pariahs. They should be treated like people with a potentially fatal mental/emotional/physical issue that needs to be addressed firmly, but with a great degree of compassion.

I remember when I was a teenager, my grandfather said to me very seriously: "If you keep gaining weight the way you are now, you're going to dig your grave with a knife and fork." At the time I was deeply shocked and hurt by his words, but now that I'm older I understand that they were spoken out of love. No one in my immediate family had ever even broached the subject with me for fear of hurting my self esteem or feelings.

I appreciate his words now, because as harsh as they seemed at the time to a tender teenage girl, they are the crux of the truth.

You shouldn't lose weight if you're obese because it'll make you sexier or you'll earn more money or fit into a coach airplane seat comfortably. You should do it because being obese is the top avoidable cause of death in the United States, and other first world countries are quickly following suit.

And yeah, you have the human right to commit death by chocolate just like you have the right to take a whole bottle of sleeping pills or slit your wrists in the bathtub, but that is not going to stop people from not wanting you to do it. Or society from scorning your choice.

Being fat may not kill you today, and it might not kill you six months from now, but eventually, it almost certainly will. For every 20 people in America, 2 of them will die prematurely from obesity-related disease.