Obesity becoming civil rights issue for some
- Thread starter txsqlchick
- Start date
txsqlchick
New member
I don't see it as an argument either, just a spirited exchange of opinions.
To me it doesn't matter if the large passenger is taking up 10%, 25%, 50%, or 100% of the extra seat. If the airline can't sell that seat to another passenger, it might as well be 100%. Look at it from their point of view.
To me it doesn't matter if the large passenger is taking up 10%, 25%, 50%, or 100% of the extra seat. If the airline can't sell that seat to another passenger, it might as well be 100%. Look at it from their point of view.
Wild Vulpix
New member
Discussion, then? 
I really do apologize if I sounded defensive or attack-y, or made the discussion uncomfortable. It's mostly timing, as I had JUST read an online debate about this very subject, so it got rather touchy for me, as I felt really bad for the overweight person who sparked the debate. Link:
I really do apologize if I sounded defensive or attack-y, or made the discussion uncomfortable. It's mostly timing, as I had JUST read an online debate about this very subject, so it got rather touchy for me, as I felt really bad for the overweight person who sparked the debate. Link:
txsqlchick
New member
Discussion, then?
I really do apologize if I sounded defensive or attack-y, or made the discussion uncomfortable. It's mostly timing, as I had JUST read an online debate about this very subject, so it got rather touchy for me, as I felt really bad for the overweight person who sparked the debate. Link:
The pro buy 2 seats argument was fairly mean-spirited but I agree in principle with it. The con argument was rambling and incoherent and usually had nothing to do with the actual topic being discussed; sorry, but I don't see how anyone could be convinced by it.
The problem is especially if some of the discussions on the internet about this are any indication is that people would be indignant about that 25% of fat oozing onto their side. And they have a right to be to a certain extent..maybe there is some middle ground..such as only charging them for an extra seat if it's a full flight..? but then everyone will be complaining 'why do fat people get two seats for the price of one but I only get one?'
San2
Mod
The problem is especially if some of the discussions on the internet about this are any indication is that people would be indignant about that 25% of fat oozing onto their side. And they have a right to be to a certain extent..maybe there is some middle ground..such as only charging them for an extra seat if it's a full flight..? but then everyone will be complaining 'why do fat people get two seats for the price of one but I only get one?'
If the flight is not fully booked, I guess it's down to the airline's discretion. I mean, I have turned the armrests up and stretched out over three seats before, when the flight wasn't even half full. Most people use a free seat next to them to place magazines, bags, snacks, whatever, so that's only fair I guess.
On a full flight, with no spare seats available, the airline should be allowed to charge for two seats if the person requires two seats. Otherwise they would make a loss, and why should they?
sinui
0
I've read/seen similar studies confirming that actually, the percentage of people genetically prone to obesity to the point that control becomes an issue, is really low. I think it was in a BBC program about weight gain...
of course they might be wrong.
ChefChiTown
New member
Eh, maybe I can use a personal example to illustrate the point I'm trying to make...
When I was still playing baseball and was in really good shape, I was still a large guy (5' 7", around 200 lbs). During that time, I took a flight to San Antonio to visit my cousin in Texas. Even though I wasn't fat and had a healthy, muscular, fit frame on me, the airplane seat was still pretty small for me to sit in.
I have always had a large frame, making it uncomfortable for me to sit in a "normal" sized seat. I've always had a wide mid-section, extremely thick legs and very broad shoulders. Even when I'm in great shape, I am still a large enough guy to where it is uncomfortable, and sometimes very tight fitting, for me to sit in an airplane seat.
You know those really crappy excuses for arm rests that you find on airplane seats? When those are down, they dig into my body so bad that it leaves marks and sometimes bruises. That's how tight it is for me. So, if I wanted to comfortably fit, I would have to use 2 seats (obviously not the WHOLE second seat).
That's the kind of situation I'm talking about when I say that it's not their fault for being large.
Obviously, there are people in which it totally is their fault for being fat/large, but I know a lot of people who are extremely uncomfortable and barely fit into airplane seats, even though they aren't fat at all.
Plus, somebody already mentioned it, but airlines make their seats smaller on purpose, to fit as many people on the airplane as possible. They know damn well that people won't be comfortable, or even fit at all at times, but they still put all of the responsibility on the passenger to fit in their tiny seats. That's not fair, in my opinion.
txsqlchick
New member
As obese as this country is, most people can fit comfortably into an airplane seat. Airplane seats, as seats in other public venues and transportation mediums, are designed not only to fit as many people as possible into the space but are also designed to accomodate the MAJORITY of people. Obviously, they cannot possibly design a seat that would comfortably fit EVERY person.
It's not a big person's fault, but it's not the airline's fault either.
sinui
0
CheChiefTown: I agree that seats are indeed small and even uncomfortable for normal weight people.. but must point out that it's economy class but cattle class will always be cattle class. and must not forget that airlines are businesses too, they need to make profit and hence try accomodate as many people as possible by making seats that can accomodate most people. Still seats are even too small for an adult fit man, taking my father as example: 1m85 and 85 kg, he has to squeeze into economy.
heh. I don't expect more though, else go to business/first class
Not defending them but I understand unfortunately their business logic
heh. I don't expect more though, else go to business/first class
Not defending them but I understand unfortunately their business logic
San2
Mod
Okay, airplane seats are uncomfortable. I totally agree with that. Now....I'm 5"10 and a few. For me, even though I am also fat, the discomfort doesn't stem from the width of the seat, but from the lack of leg room. My legs are so long that my knees are digging into the seat in front of me. Once I sit, I am wedged in there for however long it takes. I cannot get up, I can't stretch out, I can't change positions. When I get out of the plane, my knees are killing me. They (together with the rest of my legs) are swollen and bruised, and sometimes it takes days to go away.
Now....if the plane isn't fully booked, I can remove the armrest and move sideways, which helps. If it is fully booked (like the time when I went to the USA), I can't do that. Can't expect the person next to me to take my legs on their lap either. So, for 8 hours, I was cramped into the seat, and spent the first week of my holiday in excruciating pain.
The length of my legs is not my fault. Nothing I can do about it. Should I expect the airline to remove the seat in front of me so I have more room? Should I expect them to remove the passenger next to me so I can put my legs on that seat? Hardly. It's just one of those things. You live with it, or you don't fly.
Certainly not fair, but it's a sad truth that life just isn't fair. *shrug*
Now....if the plane isn't fully booked, I can remove the armrest and move sideways, which helps. If it is fully booked (like the time when I went to the USA), I can't do that. Can't expect the person next to me to take my legs on their lap either. So, for 8 hours, I was cramped into the seat, and spent the first week of my holiday in excruciating pain.
The length of my legs is not my fault. Nothing I can do about it. Should I expect the airline to remove the seat in front of me so I have more room? Should I expect them to remove the passenger next to me so I can put my legs on that seat? Hardly. It's just one of those things. You live with it, or you don't fly.
Certainly not fair, but it's a sad truth that life just isn't fair. *shrug*
ChefChiTown
New member
Obviously, they can't design a seat that would fit 100% of the population. Well, a seat that is reasonable anyway. But, the airliners know exactly what they're doing by putting such small seats in their airplanes and they're being scumbags by making, what they call, "fat" people pay for two seats, when the airliner has purposely designed their seats to NOT accomodate larger people.
I'm fat now, but I didn't use to be this size. Even when I was in great shape, I could barely fit into an airplane seat. Yes, I have a very thick frame (which is something that nobody can really control), but why should I be forced to be extremely uncomfortable just because airliners purposely shrink their seats as small as they can, just so they can fit more people onto the plane?
Is it the airliner's fault that people are fat? No, it's not. But, it IS their fault that their seats are so small and, like it or not, do not fit the "average" person. According to the CDC, the obesity rate in the United States is anywhere between 30-35%. So, the airliner is knowingly excluding nearly 1/3 of the US population from comfortably fitting into their seats by designing smaller, more "profitable" seats that can allow each airplane to fit more passengers on each flight.
FYI - I put quotes around "profitable" because, well...airliners hemorrhage money. Their business plan isn't working, including their "Hey, let's make really small seats and cram as many people as we can onto our flights" idea.
CheChiefTown: I agree that seats are indeed small and even uncomfortable for normal weight people.. but must point out that it's economy class but cattle class will always be cattle class. and must not forget that airlines are businesses too, they need to make profit and hence try accomodate as many people as possible by making seats that can accomodate most people. Still seats are even too small for an adult fit man, taking my father as example: 1m85 and 85 kg, he has to squeeze into economy.
heh. I don't expect more though, else go to business/first class
Not defending them but I understand unfortunately their business logic
Oh, their business logic makes perfect sense...if you're a successful business. But, their customer relations are horseshit and they're ruining their own business by following their business logic. There are a lot of things that people dislike about airplanes, which is why they don't fly as much anymore, but the fact that airplane rides are extremely uncomfortable for most people is one of the main reasons why people avoid airplanes.
txsqlchick
New member
We're getting off-topic here. I'm not going to argue about the airline industry with you, but suffice it to say that I do feel it is fair to charge someone for two seats if they have to use two seats.
Also...as I said before...as large as the American population is, most of us can still fit comfortably into an airplane seat. They can't design airplanes for huge people because most people are not huge. If you need more room in coach there are ways to get it...sit on an exit row or sit right behind a bulkhead for more legroom. Most flight attendants are also pretty good about trying to make you comfortable (mostly so you'll get comfy, fall asleep, and leave them alone).
Also, as I said before, many airlines' profit margins are razor-thin and many don't operate at a profit at all. Also, I disagree that airlines are purposely designing seats that 1/3 of people would find uncomfortable. I was obese most of my adult life, flew frequently, and was fine. Just because someone is obese does not mean they need two seats. Even at 5'7" and 200 pounds, I cannot picture someone who is so wide that they can't fit into a seat comfortably. I'm 5'6" and flew back here from England at about 250 lbs...and could put both armrests all the way down. At that weight I was not merely obese...I was morbidly obese.
Airlines don't exist to fly us around in the lap of luxury. Airlines exist to make money. Period. They struggle to make a profit even with the seats as small as they are. If you think it's uncomfortable now, I probably shouldn't even mention that some airlines have kicked around the idea of having coach passengers stand for the flights. Yup. Stand. You'd have restraints, but you wouldn't have a seat. But that'd probably be more comfortable for you: no armrests.
G
Guest
Guest
Oh I was doing so well, I wasn't going to say anything
Also, as I said before, many airlines' profit margins are razor-thin and many don't operate at a profit at all. Also, I disagree that airlines are purposely designing seats that 1/3 of people would find uncomfortable. I was obese most of my adult life, flew frequently, and was fine. Just because someone is obese does not mean they need two seats. Even at 5'7" and 200 pounds, I cannot picture someone who is so wide that they can't fit into a seat comfortably. I'm 5'6" and flew back here from England at about 250 lbs...and could put both armrests all the way down. At that weight I was not merely obese...I was morbidly obese.
Getting off topic here, still interesting point, I think it's different is someone has Squishy Molding Fat, compared to what Chef is stating with a full, Husky, Muscular body, Muscle that cannot btw be squished.
As it has been said, it is a business, it's nothing personal, all of that other stuff DOES NOT matter. As it has been previously mentioned.
Luckily I cannot be sued (hopefully), that when I get onto an airplane seat, and my knees too are jammed up, and the person in front of me decides to recline their seat back to a laying down position, because they've paid for the benefits of having a seat that is adjustable in that respect and finding out it WON'T. haha Domino affect, does that mean they get to pay less, for a seat without all the benefits?? Nope. It's not my fault. And it's too bad if they end up in front of me. We're just paying for A SPOT.
Now for my own personal rant:
Now for the Ichy Beeing-ness...if you get onto a plane that does not have first class, and the shortest people (I Swear To God Every Bloody Time) take the only Two spots left up at the front with all the leg room...just boils my blood...haha I've always said you should be a certain height to get those seats, OR pay more. It's whomever gets there first though.
I still get a kick out of it.
BTW Great Thread!! Some very good posts on here.
Also, as I said before, many airlines' profit margins are razor-thin and many don't operate at a profit at all. Also, I disagree that airlines are purposely designing seats that 1/3 of people would find uncomfortable. I was obese most of my adult life, flew frequently, and was fine. Just because someone is obese does not mean they need two seats. Even at 5'7" and 200 pounds, I cannot picture someone who is so wide that they can't fit into a seat comfortably. I'm 5'6" and flew back here from England at about 250 lbs...and could put both armrests all the way down. At that weight I was not merely obese...I was morbidly obese.
Getting off topic here, still interesting point, I think it's different is someone has Squishy Molding Fat, compared to what Chef is stating with a full, Husky, Muscular body, Muscle that cannot btw be squished.
As it has been said, it is a business, it's nothing personal, all of that other stuff DOES NOT matter. As it has been previously mentioned.
Luckily I cannot be sued (hopefully), that when I get onto an airplane seat, and my knees too are jammed up, and the person in front of me decides to recline their seat back to a laying down position, because they've paid for the benefits of having a seat that is adjustable in that respect and finding out it WON'T. haha Domino affect, does that mean they get to pay less, for a seat without all the benefits?? Nope. It's not my fault. And it's too bad if they end up in front of me. We're just paying for A SPOT.
Now for my own personal rant:
Now for the Ichy Beeing-ness...if you get onto a plane that does not have first class, and the shortest people (I Swear To God Every Bloody Time) take the only Two spots left up at the front with all the leg room...just boils my blood...haha I've always said you should be a certain height to get those seats, OR pay more. It's whomever gets there first though.
I still get a kick out of it.BTW Great Thread!! Some very good posts on here.
txsqlchick
New member
I just have to ask...is this REALLY the most critical issue facing obese people? I know for damn sure it ISN'T.
I mean, come on. How frequently do most of us fly? Unless we have relatives who live far away or we travel frequently for work, I'm guessing most of us get on a plane a couple of times a year...if that. Personally I have not flown in almost 2 years.
I think GENUINE malicious discrimination against the obese exists in many forms, though I do not agree that being asked to buy an extra seat is malicious discrimination. The obese do not receive the same quality of healthcare that non-obese people do. Obesity costs you promotions, raises, even jobs sometimes. And people really do treat you differently when you're obese than when you're not. I haven't been not obese for very long, and I REALLY notice the difference.
I mean, come on. How frequently do most of us fly? Unless we have relatives who live far away or we travel frequently for work, I'm guessing most of us get on a plane a couple of times a year...if that. Personally I have not flown in almost 2 years.
I think GENUINE malicious discrimination against the obese exists in many forms, though I do not agree that being asked to buy an extra seat is malicious discrimination. The obese do not receive the same quality of healthcare that non-obese people do. Obesity costs you promotions, raises, even jobs sometimes. And people really do treat you differently when you're obese than when you're not. I haven't been not obese for very long, and I REALLY notice the difference.
Kori
New member
There is always the option of First/ Business/Premium Economy Class.. bigger seats more leg room.. but most of us don't want to pay for it.
If airlines had to make all seating wider and with the extra leg room like that.. obviously they could fit fewer passangers, thus having to charge those that fly more... no one would be able to afford to fly. Should 66% of the population have to pay extra for the 33% who are obese?
A number of airlines are now offering an "inbetween" class with a bigger seat, and more leg room, but it comes at a price.. it HAS to .. they are a business, as someone said, one that is often borderline profitable anyways. I am flying to the US (from Australia a 14 hour flight) later in the year, and will be flying with a carrier that offers a Premium Economy class with a bigger seat and more leg room - I will be paying 3 times the normal Economy price as a result.. but at least I know I will be comfortable! I hope by then I don't "need" the extra room.. and that it is just lovely to have a huge seat to stretch out in!!!
I have had the misfortune of sitting next to a hugely obese person on a flight, and seriously it was the most unpleasant two hours of my life!!! I have major issues with ANYONE invading my space! and at that time I was no where near as big as I am now, perhaps a little overweight, and this person was touching me the whole way!!! arghghghghgg horrible horrible horrible!
If airlines had to make all seating wider and with the extra leg room like that.. obviously they could fit fewer passangers, thus having to charge those that fly more... no one would be able to afford to fly. Should 66% of the population have to pay extra for the 33% who are obese?
A number of airlines are now offering an "inbetween" class with a bigger seat, and more leg room, but it comes at a price.. it HAS to .. they are a business, as someone said, one that is often borderline profitable anyways. I am flying to the US (from Australia a 14 hour flight) later in the year, and will be flying with a carrier that offers a Premium Economy class with a bigger seat and more leg room - I will be paying 3 times the normal Economy price as a result.. but at least I know I will be comfortable! I hope by then I don't "need" the extra room.. and that it is just lovely to have a huge seat to stretch out in!!!
I have had the misfortune of sitting next to a hugely obese person on a flight, and seriously it was the most unpleasant two hours of my life!!! I have major issues with ANYONE invading my space! and at that time I was no where near as big as I am now, perhaps a little overweight, and this person was touching me the whole way!!! arghghghghgg horrible horrible horrible!
ChefChiTown
New member
Who's arguing about the airline industry?
It's a business. Businesses do whatever it takes to make money. That's why airliners put smaller seats in their planes, so they can make more profit. What is going to make an airline more money (hypothetically)?
100 seats x $100 ticket = $10,000 per flight
150 seats x $100 ticket = $15,000 per flight
Of course they're going to make smaller seats so they can fit more ticket-paying passengers on board. Unfortunately, their plan isn't working, which is one of the many reasons why the airline industry is struggling.
Anyway, if a blind person gets onto an airplane and has a seeing eye dog, they don't have to pay for the extra room that the dog takes up. If a person brings a carry-on bag that is bigger than allowed, they don't have to pay for the extra room that their luggage takes up. So, why should a bigger person have to pay for the extra room that they take up? There are a lot of contradicting charges that are found when you look at what airlines charge/don't charge their customers.
Like I said, it's a business and business will do whatever they can to get the most money out of their customers...even if it's BS.
txsqlchick
New member
This. This is arguing about the airline industry, or you trying to draw someone into an argument about it.
Not playing.
Sorry.
Wild Vulpix
New member
If a large person who takes up a bit more than one seat has to pay for two, then three small girls who can safely and comfortably fit into two seats should be able to pay for only two ticket prices, by this logic. A seatbelt extender should solve the problem of the middle girl not being able to buckle in.
txsqlchick
New member
Enough of airplane shit...seriously...like I asked before, is this really the biggest issue obese people face? I noticed nobody has answered that question yet.