Obesity becoming civil rights issue for some

[txsqlchick]

I dunno what to make of this. On the one hand, everyone should be treated equally. However, I firmly believe that obesity is almost always a self-imposed condition. Some of us are definitely more prone to it than others....I speak from personal experience here....but I've also been able to beat it for the time being so it IS possible with lifestyle changes.

Am I saying it's OK to treat obese people like shit? OF COURSE IT'S NOT OK. Am I saying that fat is unhealthy? YES.

 

[San2]

Hmmm....promoting health at any weight is good. But obesity comes with health issues, if not right away, then in the long run. So promoting health and being overweight at the same time is, essentially, mutually exclusive.

I don't know about being disadvantaged because of being overweight. That must be an American thing. When I started my working life, I never had a problem getting a job, regardless of my size. I worked as a nurse and geriatric care nurse, worked in ER (A&E for the Brits), did my 12 - 14 hour shifts just like everybody else.

As for the plane seats - if you're so big that the seat next to you can only be used by somebody who's extremely skinny, you pay extra. You use two seats, you damn well pay for two. If you don't like it, tough. Lose weight, then you won't have that problem. It's not discrimination - if you don't fit into one seat, you have to pay for two. Simple. *shrug*

 

[txsqlchick]

Hmmm....promoting health at any weight is good. But obesity comes with health issues, if not right away, then in the long run. So promoting health and being overweight at the same time is, essentially, mutually exclusive.

I don't know about being disadvantaged because of being overweight. That must be an American thing. When I started my working life, I never had a problem getting a job, regardless of my size. I worked as a nurse and geriatric care nurse, worked in ER (A&E for the Brits), did my 12 - 14 hour shifts just like everybody else.

As for the plane seats - if you're so big that the seat next to you can only be used by somebody who's extremely skinny, you pay extra. You use two seats, you damn well pay for two. If you don't like it, tough. Lose weight, then you won't have that problem. It's not discrimination - if you don't fit into one seat, you have to pay for two. Simple. *shrug*

I agree.

I never had much trouble finding work when I was obese; when I came back to the U.S. I had 2 job offers within 2 weeks of starting to look for a job, and I was morbidly obese at the time. Maybe I'd have gotten more offers if I was slim, maybe not; I don't know. But I am one of the highest-paid people on my team at work so being fat definitely didn't hold me back professionally!

 

[Steve]

I agree that simply with the article in that focusing on dieting the weight off isn't the answer since a majority of dieters fail at dieting or a majority of diets fail dieters depending on how you want to look at it.

But when they say:

"The emphasis has just been 'lose weight and everything will be fine,' and it's becoming really clear that people aren't losing weight," she said. "So we want to shift the emphasis to making us as healthy as we can be at whatever weight we are."

The thing with that is, living healthfully and being large really don't go hand in hand. I mean, sure, you might start living healthfully after growing large but over time, assuming you're consistent with your healthy lifestyles, you're going to shrink.

Living healthfully and remaining large are opposing forces.

With regards to things like:

Activists say the movement is beginning to amass some victories, from larger seat belts in cars to a decision by the Supreme Court in Canada that obese and disabled people traveling on airplanes can't be forced to buy a second seat

I take issue with this. Obesity isn't a disease where victims have no control over their "illness." Sure, in very rare instances obesity is caused by true, biological defects. But the vast majority of cases is simply a matter of having an imbalance with regards to energy in vs. energy out.

To fix that requires ownership. People need to start owning their choices in life. I'm aware that it's a fine balance and there are a lot of large people out there. We don't want to make their lives completely uncomfortable but at the same time, in my opinion, we don't' want to make it completely comfortable either.

Doing so would incentivize stagnation in terms of losing weight and healthy pursuits and that's not fair to obese people, that's not fair to their children and families, it's not fair to society, etc.

Now jumping back to what I said about:

But the vast majority of cases is simply a matter of having an imbalance with regards to energy in vs. energy out.

Societal influences certainly play a huge role here. Pressure to consume more and move less is everywhere.

And that's the part people need to start owning up to.

But at the same time, this imbalance in energy in vs. out typically stems from a host of emotional/psychological issues which are much more complex than the problem (energy in vs. energy out) itself.

 

[T2 Trucker]

Well, sadly, this has legs. The U.S. of A. largely supports rights for those who get it wrong (i.e. the prison system). Unless you have a video or audio proof you've been violated, only then have you been a victim of discrimination. Otherwise we all have to adapt to standards of measurement allotted to us as a society.

I know first-hand the feeling of violating said spaces through my own free will to be bigger than 'the average person'. Yanno, this did play on my mind to the extent I hoped that my own self-induced embarrassment would assist my turnaround. In fact, it should hurt you inside. That and other compelling factors finally was my motivator.

This is a sad message the authors are sending out. I see this as a white flag for those who can't and won't help themselves. Statistically, I don't know what percentage of obesity can turn itself around due to medical reasons, but I'd dare to say the high 90 percentile is curable through proper mind development. If our Gov issues 'fat passes' of a flaunting nature, Lord help us all. This will only get worse in our country. The price tag will be enormous.

 

[sinui]

As for the plane seats - if you're so big that the seat next to you can only be used by somebody who's extremely skinny, you pay extra. You use two seats, you damn well pay for two. If you don't like it, tough. Lose weight, then you won't have that problem. It's not discrimination - if you don't fit into one seat, you have to pay for two. Simple. *shrug*

simple common sense

 

[Tamago]

^
Common sense maybe..but didn't the supreme court in the US rule not too long ago that it was wrong to charge one person for two seats?
in the end I guess it's all about the individual and what they want for themselves. One of the fears here is that people will stop losing motivation to be healthy if everyone else around them is also unhealthy and overweight..for me it was the opposite, I lived abroad in asia for a few years then came back to the US and knew I had to change after taking a look around

 

[txsqlchick]

^
Common sense maybe..but didn't the supreme court in the US rule not too long ago that it was wrong to charge one person for two seats?
in the end I guess it's all about the individual and what they want for themselves. One of the fears here is that people will stop losing motivation to be healthy if everyone else around them is also unhealthy and overweight..for me it was the opposite, I lived abroad in asia for a few years then came back to the US and knew I had to change after taking a look around

And what about the people who are squished by large passengers? What about their civil rights? Your right to be obese without "discrimination" ends where my airplane seat begins. I think it's fair to charge extremely large people for 2 seats if they require 2 seats; if they didn't, another paying passenger could have fit into that seat. I don't think it's discrimination, and I say this as someone who was close to needing an extra seat herself.

 

[Wild Vulpix]

A large person having to pay for two seats isn't fair. They should get the second one free and the airline should have to eat the loss.

Though nothing can really, truly be done about the situation. Telling someone that they're too fat will surely result in a lawsuit somewhere down the road. Imagine having to step on a scale prior to boarding, or being pulled aside to be told you'll have to wait until the next flight because you're too big for a single, and this flight is full...

 

[ChefChiTown]

I dunno what to make of this. On the one hand, everyone should be treated equally. However, I firmly believe that obesity is almost always a self-imposed condition. Some of us are definitely more prone to it than others....I speak from personal experience here....but I've also been able to beat it for the time being so it IS possible with lifestyle changes.

Am I saying it's OK to treat obese people like shit? OF COURSE IT'S NOT OK. Am I saying that fat is unhealthy? YES.

I'm glad you posted this, because it's a PERFECT example of something I've been saying for YEARS...

With everybody crying for equal rights, the line will never be drawn until every single grouping of people is treated exactly the same as every other grouping of people.

With that being said...

Equal rights are equal rights. Technically, obese people SHOULD be getting the same exact rights and opportunities as everyone else, according to our Civil Rights. Even if their obesity is self-inflicted or considered a personal choice, it is no different than people who practice a certain religion asking for equal rights or homosexual people asking for equal rights.

Personally, I'm tired of people who bitch and moan about equal rights. Nobody will ever have equal rights. When some grouping of people achieves equal rights, it only changes the public's perception on the issue...not the reality. Gay people will still be treated like gay people. Black people will still be treated like black people. Relgious people will still be treated like religious people. And, fat people will still be treated like fat people...no matter what sort of equal rights they are given.

A large person having to pay for two seats isn't fair. They should get the second one free and the airline should have to eat the loss.

Pun intended?

Anyway, I agree. Charging fat people for two seats is unfair. If someone is extremely skinny and only takes up half of a seat, does the airline charge them for half of a seat? No, they pay for one seat, because they are one person. If two extremely skinny people, who only take up half of a seat each, decided to share a seat, do they just pay for one seat? No, they pay for two, because they are two people. Why should that mentality change because somebody is fat?

What if somebody wasn't fat, but still huge? Huge, in a muscular or extremely tall and wide kind of way? Even though they aren't fat, should THEY have to pay for two seats?

 

[San2]

A large person having to pay for two seats isn't fair. They should get the second one free and the airline should have to eat the loss.

Why? Is it the airline's fault that the person is fat?? If the plane is fully booked, and they could fit one more passenger in there, why should they pay for the fact that a person is overweight? If that person takes up the space of another paying customer, you'll have to compensate them for their loss.

If that person went into a restaurant and ordered double portions of everything, would they get it for free? No, they would have to pay double....if they need a bigger car because they are so fat, they pay more. If you need more, you pay more. Sounds simple to me.

Anyway, I agree. Charging fat people for two seats is unfair. If someone is extremely skinny and only takes up half of a seat, does the airline charge them for half of a seat? No, they pay for one seat, because they are one person. If two extremely skinny people, who only take up half of a seat each, decided to share a seat, do they just pay for one seat? No, they pay for two, because they are two people. Why should that mentality change because somebody is fat?

What if somebody wasn't fat, but still huge? Huge, in a muscular or extremely tall and wide kind of way? Even though they aren't fat, should THEY have to pay for two seats?

Sorry, have to disagree here. There is nothing unfair about it. If somebody takes up two seats, why should they not pay for them? I don't get it. If I need extra large jeans to fit onto my fat arse, I need to pay more for them than smaller sizes as well. Is that unfair as well? I've got big feet, I pay more for shoes because of that, is that unfair? I wanted a Mini Cooper but didn't fit into it, so I had to buy a car that was more expensive. Unfair?

Nope. My own fault. And personally, I think the airline has every right to charge me double if my fat behind doesn't fit into the seat. As for extremely large people....I don't know anybody who didn't fit into an airplane seat even if muscular / broad / tall. But if that happened, yes, they should pay for two seats if they can't fit into one. It's not about being fat, it's about paying for what you get - if you require two seats, you pay for two, what is so difficult about that?

What about people with babies? Over here, they have to pay for a second seat, and bring a car seat that the baby is strapped into. They could hold it on their laps the whole flight, but they HAVE to buy a second seat. Unfair? Don't think so....usually the seat next to them is full of bags, toys, baby food and hell knows what else, so it's not usable for another passenger. So yepp, they should pay extra for that.

On a sidenote - nope, skinny people don't pay half price. But I have seen countless occasions where skinny people were allowed vast amounts of luggage, more than your 'average' passenger, because they didn't weigh much themselves.

Equal rights? Nobody wants equal rights. Everybody wants to get the most out of whatever 'group' they belong to.
Why do gay people need parades? What for? I thought they just want to be treated like everybody else? I'm a 34 year old, married, white, bisexual female. Nobody ever made a parade for me. Maybe I should start fighting for my equal rights.....*shakes head*

And just so people won't start to flame me - this is just an example. I have no problems with gay people at all. I used to live in a gay relationship for a long time, most of my friends are gay, and I had this discussion with all of them. They still love me, and I love them. It's just an EXAMPLE, so put down the handbags!

 

[PaperAirPlanes]

My view on this is...

I think its rude to charge fat people extra ticket price but my mother brought up a good point, weight limits on planes are for certain fuel amounts...heavier people = more fuel. maybe not by a HUGE amount but over the course of a year it might make a dent.

But, my issue with it is.....how long before airlines start weighing people? how fat is too fat? I'm fat, I weigh 252lbs but I can fit nicely into plane seats, theater seats, etc. It's only a matter of time before they start implanting what's fat and what's not. Yanno? That's where my issue lays..when things go too far.

As for equal rights...lol I'm all for them, but it'll never happen, for anything.

 

[Steve]

Anyway, I agree. Charging fat people for two seats is unfair. If someone is extremely skinny and only takes up half of a seat, does the airline charge them for half of a seat? No, they pay for one seat, because they are one person. If two extremely skinny people, who only take up half of a seat each, decided to share a seat, do they just pay for one seat? No, they pay for two, because they are two people. Why should that mentality change because somebody is fat?

What if somebody wasn't fat, but still huge? Huge, in a muscular or extremely tall and wide kind of way? Even though they aren't fat, should THEY have to pay for two seats?

Still huge? Depends on how muscularly huge. If they're taking up two seats, they should have to pay for two seats.

The question is, are you paying per body or are you paying per seat?

My take is you're paying per seat. It doesn't matter if you're large enough to take up two seats due to excess fat or muscle.

 

[txsqlchick]

A large person having to pay for two seats isn't fair. They should get the second one free and the airline should have to eat the loss.

Though nothing can really, truly be done about the situation. Telling someone that they're too fat will surely result in a lawsuit somewhere down the road. Imagine having to step on a scale prior to boarding, or being pulled aside to be told you'll have to wait until the next flight because you're too big for a single, and this flight is full...

I disagree strenuously with this.

First of all, if someone is too big to fit into a normal airplane seat, they will be encroaching upon whoever is sitting next to them. If you have to lift the armrest to fit into the seat, sorry, you are too big for it. Airplane seats may be on the small side, but you know that before you ever buy your ticket. Also, the airline could sell an empty seat to a full fare-paying passenger if you weren't slopping into it...so why shouldn't you have to pay for it?

Also, if airliners are going to be expected to have seats for people of every possible size, so should public venues like stadiums, concert halls, classrooms, etc. I'm assuming a lot of the adults here attended college and have sat in small, uncomfortable wooden auditorium seats in classrooms built in the 1940s or 1950s, when EVERYONE was a lot smaller. I don't hear everyone bitching about how tiny those seats are. There's a reason for that....it's because airplane tickets are expensive, and you can usually find a more comfortable seat in the front of a classroom where you can sprawl out.

Personally I don't think it's unfair at all. I say this as someone who has flown transatlantically many times...often squeezed into a standard-size coach seat, barely able to fit into it without infringing on my seatmates, and developing painful edema after every flight because of how immobilized I was.

Is it fair for an airline to charge passengers for 2 seats? YES. Yes, yes, yes.

 

[ChefChiTown]

Why? Is it the airline's fault that the person is fat??

No, but it might not be the fat person's fault either. Some people just have terrible genetics. Why should those people be charged twice for something that is completely out of their control?

If that person went into a restaurant and ordered double portions of everything, would they get it for free? No, they would have to pay double....if they need a bigger car because they are so fat, they pay more. If you need more, you pay more. Sounds simple to me.

Do fat people get charged for two fares if they take the bus? A cab? The train? No, they don't. And, nobody would argue that they should be. Why is it different just because it's on an airplane?

Sorry, have to disagree here. There is nothing unfair about it. If somebody takes up two seats, why should they not pay for them? I don't get it. If I need extra large jeans to fit onto my fat arse, I need to pay more for them than smaller sizes as well. Is that unfair as well? I've got big feet, I pay more for shoes because of that, is that unfair? I wanted a Mini Cooper but didn't fit into it, so I had to buy a car that was more expensive. Unfair?

Nope. My own fault. And personally, I think the airline has every right to charge me double if my fat behind doesn't fit into the seat. As for extremely large people....I don't know anybody who didn't fit into an airplane seat even if muscular / broad / tall. But if that happened, yes, they should pay for two seats if they can't fit into one. It's not about being fat, it's about paying for what you get - if you require two seats, you pay for two, what is so difficult about that?

What if their size wasn't their fault? Why should they have to pay twice for something that is nature's fault?

What about people with babies? Over here, they have to pay for a second seat, and bring a car seat that the baby is strapped into. They could hold it on their laps the whole flight, but they HAVE to buy a second seat. Unfair? Don't think so....usually the seat next to them is full of bags, toys, baby food and hell knows what else, so it's not usable for another passenger. So yepp, they should pay extra for that.

You have to pay for a child's seat? Here in the US, we don't have to do that (in most cases).

Still huge? Depends on how muscularly huge. If they're taking up two seats, they should have to pay for two seats.

The question is, are you paying per body or are you paying per seat?

My take is you're paying per seat. It doesn't matter if you're large enough to take up two seats due to excess fat or muscle.

What about somebody like Andre the Giant? He couldn't help how big he was; it was a genetic disorder that caused him to be so huge. So, why should he be charged for two seats when he had absolutely no control over how large he was?

Or, what about cabs? Most cabs have a limit of 4 passengers for 1 fare. Meaning, if there are 5 passengers or more, the fare is twice as much. So, if there are 3 skinny people and 1 really fat person (who takes up two seats), should the fare stay the same (because it's within the limits of 4 passengers) or be multiplied by two (because the obese person takes up the space of 2 passengers)?

Also, with the mentality of "you're paying per seat", then people who take babies on planes should be charged for their child's seat. But, they're not. Children under the age of 2 (depending on what airline you take) aren't charged for their seat. Even though they are taking up a seat, they don't have to pay for it. How is that fair?

 

[txsqlchick]

No, but it might not be the fat person's fault either. Some people just have terrible genetics. Why should those people be charged twice for something that is completely out of their control?



Do fat people get charged for two fares if they take the bus? A cab? The train? No, they don't. And, nobody would argue that they should be. Why is it different just because it's on an airplane?

Because unlike cabs and buses, airplanes are heinously expensive to operate and their profit margins are very small. One of my relatives is an executive with a major US airline...I know more about it than the average bear. The seats are on the small side to cram as much revenue as possible per hour of operation. Some flights still operate at a loss, but the airlines continue to operate those routes so other airlines can't monopolize a route that may be potentially profitable in the future. Routes that operate at a profit get a large share of their profit from first/business class travelers or last-minute travelers, but you still cannot expect the airlines to give seats away for free to obese passengers. It isn't fair to anyone.

What if their size wasn't their fault? Why should they have to pay twice for something that is nature's fault?

Because people do it every day. "Fair" is where you go to ride rides. Very tall men pay extra for their clothing because their size is so extraordinary that major manufacturers don't make clothing in their size (because it isn't profitable for them). Overweight and obese women often have to shop in specialist stores like Lane Bryant because stores like The Gap, Banana Republic, J. Crew, etc. do not make clothing in their size. Lane Bryant is RIDICULOUSLY expensive for the quality you get. I know a woman who wears a size 12 shoe. She often has to go to specialist stores to get womens' shoes and pays out the nose for them (she buys mens' athletic and casual shoes, but has to go specialist for boots and heels). She has never complained once about that that I've heard.

What about somebody like Andre the Giant? He couldn't help how big he was; it was a genetic disorder that caused him to be so huge. So, why should he be charged for two seats when he had absolutely no control over how large he was?

Andre the Giant is a pretty extreme example. His size wasn't his fault, but it's not the airline's problem.

Also, with the mentality of "you're paying per seat", then people who take babies on planes should be charged for their child's seat. But, they're not. Children under the age of 2 (depending on what airline you take) aren't charged for their seat. Even though they are taking up a seat, they don't have to pay for it. How is that fair?

People traveling with children should have to pay for a seat for them. It is not safe for children to travel on their parents' laps, and this money-saving BS is one of my pet peeves about traveling on airplanes in the US. It has killed children before and will kill them in the future.

 

[San2]

No, but it might not be the fat person's fault either. Some people just have terrible genetics. Why should those people be charged twice for something that is completely out of their control?

If it is a proven, medical reason, it would be treated the same as a disability. But let's be brutally honest, how many people are obese for medical reason with absolutely NO control over it whatsoever? And how many of those are taking a plane? Come on, it's a very small percentage. The majority of what we are talking about here are people who are overweight for just one reason - eating too much. And that is not out of their control.

Do fat people get charged for two fares if they take the bus? A cab? The train? No, they don't. And, nobody would argue that they should be. Why is it different just because it's on an airplane?

No for the bus and the cab (you don't pay per seat in either), yes in trains. And yes, the same criteria should be applied to trains and busses. Anywhere you take up more than one space (the one you paid for), you should pay extra.

What if their size wasn't their fault? Why should they have to pay twice for something that is nature's fault?

See above. If there is really a genuine medical reason, the person would most likely be classed as disabled anyway. If not and they can prove that it is a medical thing, then the airline should suck it up. But as said before, the amount of those people is negligible.

You have to pay for a child's seat? Here in the US, we don't have to do that (in most cases).

Yes, and you should. Two people, two seats. As you said, extremely skinny people don't get reduced fares or half priced seats, why should kids do?

What about somebody like Andre the Giant? He couldn't help how big he was; it was a genetic disorder that caused him to be so huge. So, why should he be charged for two seats when he had absolutely no control over how large he was?

Again, see above, medical reason. Completely different box of frogs.

Or, what about cabs? Most cabs have a limit of 4 passengers for 1 fare. Meaning, if there are 5 passengers or more, the fare is twice as much. So, if there are 3 skinny people and 1 really fat person (who takes up two seats), should the fare stay the same (because it's within the limits of 4 passengers) or be multiplied by two (because the obese person takes up the space of 2 passengers)?

I have never heard of paying cabs by passenger. Cabs here (and where I grew up) carry a maximum of passengers, usually 4, unless it's a van or something. So it doesn't matter how many people are in there, price is by distance, not amount of people. You pay per cab, not per passenger or per seat. So, if somebody is so big that they take up two or three seats in the cab, it wouldn't make a difference. If they were in a larger group, they would just cause others in the group to have to take an extra cab if they don't fit into one.

Also, with the mentality of "you're paying per seat", then people who take babies on planes should be charged for their child's seat. But, they're not. Children under the age of 2 (depending on what airline you take) aren't charged for their seat. Even though they are taking up a seat, they don't have to pay for it. How is that fair?

I whole heartedly agree. They should be charged for their children's seat no matter what age the child is. Again, charge per seat. You use it, you pay for it.

 

[Steve]

No, but it might not be the fat person's fault either. Some people just have terrible genetics. Why should those people be charged twice for something that is completely out of their control?

An extremely small percentage of people's obesity is out of their control from all the data I've seen and those I've worked with. It may be harder for some but to go as far as calling it "completely out of their control" is a bit far.

What are you talking about specifically?

What about somebody like Andre the Giant? He couldn't help how big he was; it was a genetic disorder that caused him to be so huge. So, why should he be charged for two seats when he had absolutely no control over how large he was?

That's a tough situation. The logistics of this are extremely sensitive, obviously. If it is your fault, which in the vast majority of cases it is, I have to side with the pay for your usage.

But you certainly have a point... for those who are huge due to uncontrollable factors... it's not fair.

Also, with the mentality of "you're paying per seat", then people who take babies on planes should be charged for their child's seat. But, they're not. Children under the age of 2 (depending on what airline you take) aren't charged for their seat. Even though they are taking up a seat, they don't have to pay for it. How is that fair?

I didn't think we were debating about airlines being fair. At least I wasn't. I thought we were discussing excessively large people paying for their seat usage.

You're right... I would agree 100% that if the child is taking up a seat, they should pay.

Edit: Responded as I was reading along... obviously repeated a lot of what was said above.

 

[Wild Vulpix]

I suppose arguing this is kind of silly. Airlines are a business, so their priority is in making a profit. Most businesses care a LOT about customer service, but when it comes to flying... well, they have enough business, so they really don't need to make sure everyone is having a super happy day. Like Health Insurance companies, as well as all companies, they're going to look out for themselves and their profit more than the welfare of their customers. It's simply not their problem, as they have enough business as it is.

But, as I find Health Insurance companies denying someone Health Care due to preexisting conditions, I find it unfair that a large person would have to pay extra money for a seat that, in reality, they only take up, at max, 25%. I really don't care about the welfare of the company and what's in their best interest--the company will be able to take care of itself.

Furthermore, simply because somebody is overweight, doesn't mean its their fault. I'm not suggesting genetics are the cause, but more so nurture over nature. For the most part, our educational system fails at teaching us how to safely lose weight, what's a calorie, and the role it plays in our weight and energy. So, when you get out into the real world and are bombarded with all the weight loss tips from the television, internet, and magazines, as well as all those fad diets out there, you come out really lost. I know because I've been there. Had I known how easy it is to lose weight before, I would have done it LONG ago.

Going back though: I still feel it's a waste of breath to argue about this, because airlines are a business, and it'll be in their hands if it's worth eating the loss to make two (the overweight person and the person they'd be sitting next to) happy customers. They'll do whatever it is that's in the best interest of the company. So it makes sense that they wouldn't give an overweight person a free seat, nor go through the hassle of forcing them to pay for two seats.

 

[San2]

I don't really see this as an argument. Just an exchange of opinions. I mean, I see the points other people make, I simply don't agree with them. And they don't agree with me. But we're not arguing.....or are we?

Seriously, I enjoy discussions like this. I know I sometimes have rather ... uhm .... strong opinions about things, but I am not trying to stir up the bio mass. I have a tendency to do so, but it's not on purpose. I just enjoy discussing stuff, having people tell me their point of view, and being able to stand up for my own. Confrontational much? Maybe, but it's all in good fun, at least as far as I am concerned. Hope everybody else sees it the same way.