How To Develop Force and What To Do w/ That Information

[goergen1]

This is a new thread. Everyone should get involved. The more interactive it is the more we will get out of it. So, here are the first questions. We will build from here.

We all know that strength and weight training is force training. So this first post has a couple questions.

1. What is the equation for force?

2. Based upon the answer to question #1, how many ways are there to develop force?

That is all for now. I will be back this evening. (hopefully to move things to the next stage ) I hope to get some folks involved here.

 

[Big_Idiot]

Doesnt a force equation vary, depending what the force is?

Im thinking its something to do with: Force = mass and speed.

Not sure how the equation goes.

 

[ciarzy_boy]

1. What is the equation for force?

Force = mass x acceleration.

2. Based upon the answer to question #1, how many ways are there to develop force?

Ways to develop force, well using the above formula there are 3.
Acceleration is (v-u)/s with v being final velocity, u being start velocity and s being time.To develop force then you either need to

a) increase the mass you are lifting while keeping the same acceleration of
b) increase the final velocity of your lift
c) decrease the time you take in lifting from start to finish

 

[evolution]

What ^^ said above about the first part.

Part 2-
Dynamic effort day
Maximal effort day

I w1n

 

[Woodt]

What ^^ said above about the first part.

Part 2-
Dynamic effort day
Maximal effort day

I w1n

Way to steal the show

 

[ciarzy_boy]

exactly....I just said it science-y

 

[Karky]

Force = mass x acceleration.




Ways to develop force, well using the above formula there are 3.
Acceleration is (v-u)/s with v being final velocity, u being start velocity and s being time.To develop force then you either need to

a) increase the mass you are lifting while keeping the same acceleration of
b) increase the final velocity of your lift
c) decrease the time you take in lifting from start to finish

then we need to figure out ways of doing these 3 things.
For example, I lift 135kg now in the squat, when I lift 150, I'll probably be able to do 135 kg quicker, so max effort, like evo said.
Then increasing velocity, would be something like dynamic effort, whic is normally done with light weight, however you can do a heavy weight and just focus on lifting it faster each time, the question though would be what is more effective

one of the most important parts is of course to lift the weight as explosively as possible and not going slow on purpose. Lifting fast (the intent) will make you recruit more muscle fibers and eventually it will make your CNS more efficient at recruiting MTs, meaning you will be using more MTs which means you will be stronger and faster.

Now I have a question I've been wondering about:
Lifting explosively, what determines how fast I accelerate the weight?
At the start of the lift, the slow fibers will be recruited, then it will go up towards the fastest fibers, now, the time your body uses to go from the slow to the fast fibers must mean something. If I try to max out on the squat, my slow fibers won't be able to do much, my fast ones will have to kick in quickly. If it takes too long to recruit the fast fibers, won't I just fall flat on my ass? Can the definition of how explosive you are be determined by how fast you recruit your fastest fibers and, of course, how strong those fibers are? I've always believed that acceleration really is how fast you will go from the slow to the fast fibers. And yes, I do realize we are talking ms here.

If you have a lot of strength, but it takes a long time for you to "recruit" that strenght, you're not very "forceful" and if you don't have a lot of strength, but it doesn't take a long time to recruit it, you're still not very forceful.

Sorta messy there, but do you see what I'm getting at?

 

[goergen1]

Equation points go to ciarzy_boy. :biggrinsanta:

On to Karky.

Lifting explosively, what determines how fast I accelerate the weight?
At the start of the lift, the slow fibers will be recruited, then it will go up towards the fastest fibers, now, the time your body uses to go from the slow to the fast fibers must mean something.

The fast twitch / slow twitch thing is funny. There are a couple of things.

1. You can decrease the amount of time it takes to recruit motor units.

2. You can increase the number of motor units recruited in the same amount of time.

3. You can do both.

All three can be improved through proper training.

Other things on this topic.

1. There are a wide range of motor units, not just fast and slow twitch.

2. Slower motor units can change to faster motor units with proper training.

3. The opposite is true as well. Faster motor units can change to slower motor units with the proper training.

I see where you are coming from.

This raises my next question. Of the different ways to increase force production, do you get the same results from the different methods?

If they are different, why are they different? What are the different results?

Which method is best used to increase max strength?

a) increase the mass you are lifting while keeping the same acceleration of
b) increase the final velocity of your lift
c) decrease the time you take in lifting from start to finish

And the bonus question.

Have you ever heard of the strengthening threshold? If so, what is it?

I will be back on the morrow for more.

 

[matt182]

Force equals mass times acceleartion thats basic phsyics. More important for weight training is moment = length of moment arm times perpendicular force.

 

[goergen1]

^^^^^ Except that the length of the moment arm changes throughout the range of motion and is based upon the muscle attachment to the bone. Meaning that we are not going to change the length of our limbs or where muscles attach to the bone, so this factor remains a constant, and will vary from person to person. (most people won't be measuring the moment arm at different joint angles anyhow) So there is no need to discuss a variable that can't be changed or measured easily.

Never mind that the joint angle that the muscles produce maximal force is not the same as the moment arm at its maximum.

Since force production changes throughout the range of motion, as well as the angle of the lever arm, perpendicular force only matters at a specific joint angle. Again, something that is not all that useful when talking about training principals and how to progress.

That brings us back to the most effective, and practical, way to increase force production. Which is the topic at hand.

Yes, force = mass X acceleration. It is a basic equation. Within that simple formula are endless possibilities to help us increase force production in strength training and sporting activities.

That is why I started this thread, to open discussion on the best way to increase force production for the purposes of increased strength and explosive power.

Thanks for making me sound like a science geek.

(for those who need to know. Moment arm - the perpendicular distance from the muscle insertion to the axis of joint rotation. That I took from a book)

 

[Karky]

If you are a fast, weak guy, I think you would see best results with doing ME trainig, since that is what you need. You recruit your monitor units fast, but they aren't strong.

If you are strong but slow, you need more speed work.

Now I'd guess that you would get different results from doing speed or ME work. There is a big difference in the method (what you actually do) which usually means that the results are different. I for one, don't think you will get far by just doing speed work, I think you would get further by doing just strength work, but that would eventually come to a stop too. Atleast if you are relatively new.

Does speed training (for example, squats/deads/whatever at like 50-60% 1RM fast, 3 reps) decrease the time it takes for the fast MTs to be recruited? If so, training a lot of speed training would make you fast, but not necessarily strong, explosive exercises might be what you're good at compared to ME work on squats and deads. While someone who trains a lot of strength will be the opposite. I know that strength work probably can decrease the time it takes to recruit MTs but probably not as much as true speed work.
I really think you should use both to increase max strength, but if you had to choose one, heavy training would probably get you longer than speed training alone.

Just my thoughts.

 

[matt182]

^^^^^ Except that the length of the moment arm changes throughout the range of motion and is based upon the muscle attachment to the bone. Meaning that we are not going to change the length of our limbs or where muscles attach to the bone, so this factor remains a constant, and will vary from person to person. (most people won't be measuring the moment arm at different joint angles anyhow) So there is no need to discuss a variable that can't be changed or measured easily.

Im no biomechanic geek (in fact i hate it), but the moment length doesnt change, but the force required for a movement will.

When doing a leg extension for example, more force is required to lift the weight when the leg is at 90deg compared to 10deg. Because it is the perpendicular force which is important. This could easily be found using simple trigonometry.

 

[ciarzy_boy]

Equation points go to ciarzy_boy. :biggrinsanta:

If they are different, why are they different? What are the different results?

Which method is best used to increase max strength?



And the bonus question.

Have you ever heard of the strengthening threshold? If so, what is it?/QUOTE]

Wohoo equation points

Onto the point of why changing final velocity, mass and time taken are different.

As a point of relative increases, a .1s decrease in time taken over a lift of 1s leads to a 10% increase in porce produced, for obtain the same kind of force increase you'd need ot massively increase(again its 10%) of your final velocity and same with weight, for me any a 10% increase in weight is fairly big, regardless of the lift!

Strengthening threshold is basically the 'achievement' of which fails to ellicit any further increase in muscular strength, after which strength can only be increased by intensifying the training. (Hettinger 1961)

I'm looking at this from a purely mathematical point because my power lifting knowledge is, pretth much, non existant

 

[goergen1]

Matt,

Changes in the tibialis anterior tendon moment arm from rest to maximum isometric dorsiflexion: in vivo observations in man. Clinical Biomechanics, Volume 14 , Issue 9 , Pages 661 - 666 C . Maganaris

"At any given ankle angle, the tibialis anterior tendon moment arm during maximum isometric dorsiflexion increased by 0.9–1.5 cm (P<0.01) compared with rest. This was attributed to a displacement of both tibialis anterior tendon action line by 0.8–1.2 cm (P<0.01) and all instant centres of rotation by 0.3–0.4 cm (P<0.01) distally in relation to their corresponding resting positions."

Constantinos N. Maganaris
(1)Institute for Biophysical and Clinical Research into Human Movement (IRM), Manchester Metropolitan University, Alsager ST7 2HL, UK
Accepted: 11 November 2003 Published online: 18 December 2003

"The results obtained by actual measurements on 2-D magnetic resonance images indicate that the moment arm lengths of the Achilles and tibialis anterior tendons increase during MVC compared with rest by between 22% and 44%, due to (1) joint displacement, (2) muscle thickening and (3) stretching of collagenous structures mediating the action of tendon."

Things change when the body in under a load. There are no constants. The above are just examples. There is more to.

When doing a leg extension for example, more force is required to lift the weight when the leg is at 90deg compared to 10deg. Because it is the perpendicular force which is important. This could easily be found using simple trigonometry.

While that it true. It can't be changed. (limb length) It is something that we have to deal with through accommodating resistance methods, which change the load being lifted across the range of motion. This is a valid training method, when used in accordance with methods to produce the greatest force.

 

[goergen1]

Karky gets points for the training methods. Yes, speed training as you described will not make significant changes in overall strength. That is why it has to be coupled with the max effort method.

High 5!!

(like the accommodating resistance method that I brought up with matt. It is a good method for increasing strength when coupled with the speed work and heavy max work)

ciarzy_boy

As a point of relative increases, a .1s decrease in time taken over a lift of 1s leads to a 10% increase in porce produced, for obtain the same kind of force increase you'd need ot massively increase(again its 10%) of your final velocity and same with weight, for me any a 10% increase in weight is fairly big, regardless of the lift!

That is a good point. Which is why the the max effort method. needs to be used for strength gain. Also, that is why the weights for speed work are about half that for the strength work, so the proper speeds for the increase in force production can be reached.

High 5!!

To expand on your strengthening threshold answer. I the 70's it was found that loads of 20, 40, 60, and 80 percent of the 1 rep max (regardless of speed of time of rest) did not always enhance the increase in strength. It was was not until later in the training career that more intense training methods were necessary.

OK, Lets take off the science hats off and get into the practical world. We have seen the thoughts on increasing force by using speed work in weightlifting movements. (Karky brought that one up)

1. What are other methods of increasing force production?
1.5. With both resistance training as well as without external resistance?

2. What are some examples of how to work these methods into your training program?

3. What happens to recovery time when we use these methods?

Thanks for making this thread interesting everyone.

 

[Karky]

3. as for recovery, when you do speed work it is very CNS dependant, what you're really working is the CNS, it takes a lot to recover from.

As for methods, I mentioned doing speed squats, deads, etc, but there are also the oly lifts (not just the full ones) they are cool since you have to be quick on order to make them. With a speed squat it is easy to put too much weight on because of your ego, with a power clean you have to be quick.

As for other methods, you've got plyometrics. And if I am right (which I believe I am) plyometrics is NOT simply jumping, it is challenging the stretch reflex thingy. For example, jump off a low box and onto a high box and spending as little time on the ground as possible. You have to stop and absorb the landing an a very sudden and quick eccentric movement and then go into a concentric movement when you jump onto the high box. If you don't have this rapid eccentric motion it is not a plyometric exercise, am I right?

 

[LeiYunFat]

1. What are other methods of increasing force production?
1.5. With both resistance training as well as without external resistance?

Plyometrics/sprint work
Technique work. More leverage=more force

2. What are some examples of how to work these methods into your training program?

Wherever it fits. Technique work can be done all day without resistance, if you just think about it and do it in your head. Plyos can take the place of a DE day.

3. What happens to recovery time when we use these methods?

Light weight/no resistance technique work will only go so far. However, it has negligible effects on recovery. Learning the right technique when the weight gets heavy is another thing. Recovery time will increase with plyometrics. Unless you would normally lift maximal weights or do something more taxing. In which case plyometrics may aid in muscular recovery through increased blood flow. Plyometrics have a taxing effect on the CNS, however. SO this needs to be taken into consideration. Although once you get your work capacity up, generating maximum force day in, day out, shouldn't be a problem. So long as training has some form of periodization.

 

[goergen1]

vojdancov - that is friggin funny.

Lei and Karky both mentioned plyometrics. Which is a form of non-load power training.

Box jumps, broad jumps, and most other kinds of jumps are great. (though not technically plyometric) A lot of lifters use this type of training to increase their rate of force production.

I would also like to talk about throwing stuff. Overhead throws initially here. Vasily Alexiev used to throw a 135lb bar in this manner. This is a great way to increase force production because the weight leaves your hands and there is no need to slow it down. So the acceleration phase can be much longer.

The polish weightlifting team would do overhead heaves outdoors using logs.

Of course the overhead heave has been done with kettle bells and puds of different weights. As well as medicine balls.

There is a huge variety of other throwing movements that can be done to increase rate of force production in different movements.

Both Karky and Lei have stated that the recovery time after doing speed work is a bit because power and speed exercises are taxing on the nervous system.

Lei brought up an interesting point of -

Although once you get your work capacity up, generating maximum force day in, day out, shouldn't be a problem.

Which is true. As long as the maximum force is produced with different methods.

This brings up some more questions.

1. What are methods of improving GPP? (General Physical Preparation)

2. Where would GPP fit into a program?

3. If we wanted to produce maximum lower body force 4 days in one week, what are different ways of doing this? (since recovery time is a factor)

4. Since I brought up different types of jumps and we were talking about plyometrics. When would an additional load be used with these types of exercises? What is the difference between using a load for jumping exercises and no load for jumping exercises?

5. What are some examples of how to work the above methods into your training program?

 

[LeiYunFat]

This brings up some more questions.

1. What are methods of improving GPP? (General Physical Preparation)

2. Where would GPP fit into a program?

3. If we wanted to produce maximum lower body force 4 days in one week, what are different ways of doing this? (since recovery time is a factor)

4. Since I brought up different types of jumps and we were talking about plyometrics. When would an additional load be used with these types of exercises? What is the difference between using a load for jumping exercises and no load for jumping exercises?

5. What are some examples of how to work the above methods into your training program?

1.) Odd object training, anything that is submaximal that is done for time, distance, etc. This can include sledging, car pushing, sled work, shoveling dirt...

2.) GPP would be a day where you have to make a new planter for the backyard. Or helping your family redo the roof. Or when your car runs out of gas and you have to push it to the nearest gas station.

A good time for GPP is when you need to build a base of work capacity, or you need to find some way to keep it up.

3.) Periodization. Speed day, heavy day, speed/sprint, heavy. Recovery methods are important. Implementing spas, massage, soft tissue work, static and dynamic stretching, and eating are important. 4 days a week for the lower body. Crazy.

4.) Load for jumping in essence increases mass. Unloaded jumping would require greater acceleration.

5.) I would ask G how I could do that ^^^^. Then I would probably pass out from training lower body 4x a week.