Alligatorob's Diary

[Llama]

Yay for more food and less processed stuff! If you're increasing your fiber by a lot make sure to also drink more water or the slide might get a little rough. I know for me if I'm eating more whole grains and pulses I can't also eat wholegrain bread/pasta or my organism won't cope. Would probably work if increased slowly of course.

 

[bensanon]

I have to say this new diet is taking a little getting used to, don't know that I have ever planned to eat this much. Makes a normal day feel more like a binge physically, I know its less food than most of my binges, but it still has that same full feeling.

You’re eating a healthier amount of food, Rob. It’s great! You’re certainly not overeating. Give your body and mind time to adjust.

That is interesting. You appear more knowledgeable than I on this subject. Can you point me to research that suggests "Our genes don’t determine our behaviors and explain only a fraction (less than 1%) of these disorders. Environmental and familial factors explain much much more (50% or more)." It would be helpful. I know some of the identical twin studies, studies of twins separted at birth have shown some very interesting behavioral similarities despite very different environments. However I don't know of any that have looked at addictive behavior.

I’m mostly familiar with schizophrenia and genetic research because my sister has “schizophrenia”. It’s much more complex than a 1:1 relationship between genes and behavioral disorders. I like how Gabor Maté explains it:

"Genes affect how sensitive one is to environment and environment affects how relevant one's genetic differences may be. When an environment changes, all bets are off. Some people will feel more pain and will therefore have greater need to escape into the adaptations that mental illness or addiction represent. They will have more need to tune out, to dissociate, to split into parts, to develop fantasies to account for realities they are unable to endure. That's a far cry from saying they have a heritable neurobiological disease.”

Here’s an article about a forthcoming summary on the failures of genetics research to explain “schizophrenia.” It mentions flaws with twin studies.
https://www.madinamerica.com/2024/01/psychiatric-yeti-schizophrenia-genetic/

There’s more like this out there about genetics and addiction too. More on the flaws of twin studies too. I’ll try to look for more and share it. There’s been so much hype and not very many answers after decades of genetic research. For example, hype about the “alcoholism gene”. The disorder and its development are so much more complex than one gene or set of genes. Environment plays a major role but there’s hardly any focus on childhood development and encouraging healthier environments. We spend peanuts on it meanwhile we spend millions on genetic research. It’s entirely possible to change your behavior and learn healthier ways of coping. You’re not pre-determined to become mentally ill or an addict, etc.

I’ve lived this. I used to believe I had “bad” genes and needed to take medication for the rest of my life and I had doctors telling me as much. I don’t take medication at all anymore. I’ve witnessed my sister’s medical abuse too. It’s mostly BS in my opinion.

I don’t think it matters one way or the other if you believe you have a propensity to overeat because of you’re genes though. You do seem to believe a solution is to change your behavior and your environment in healthier and more positive ways to reduce overeating.

 

[bensanon]

Slight correction here, even though it doesn't influence your simile too much: having one copy of the hemoglobin beta gene found on chromosome 11p15 gives you a reasonable degree of malaria resistance while inheriting one from both parents gives you sickle cell anemia. Which would always have been considered a disease (if people had known what was going on) since it comes with great pain, often multiple mini strokes starting in early childhood, and severe infections. At that point it doesn't matter if you have even perfect malaria resistance (I don't actually know if two copies would protect more than one) because most sufferers would never have come close to reaching adulthood before antibiotics. And we still don't have a cure, we can only treat symptoms. In evolutionary terms a mutation that kills off a quarter of your kids would be perfectly fine if it gives half your offspring reasonable protection against an infectious disease that would normally kill much more than a quarter of them. But that doesn't mean humans would ever have been fine with it.

Did you see this?

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/pre...-therapies-treat-patients-sickle-cell-disease

 

[alligatorob]

Today was not a bad day, but I sure feel like I am overeating... Got pretty close to my goal, and I got some good exercise in.

Yay for more food and less processed stuff! If you're increasing your fiber by a lot make sure to also drink more water or the slide might get a little rough. I know for me if I'm eating more whole grains and pulses I can't also eat wholegrain bread/pasta or my organism won't cope. Would probably work if increased slowly of course.

Thanks Llama, and it will be slow and halting. Today's Hello Fresh was not much fiber, but a lot of grease... One more and I think I'll cancel them. The food isn't bad, but I think I could do better shopping for myself.

You’re eating a healthier amount of food, Rob. It’s great! You’re certainly not overeating. Give your body and mind time to adjust.

I will, I plan to stick to this at least a month, then weigh in and see where I am. By then the adjustments should be further along.

I’m mostly familiar with schizophrenia and genetic research because my sister has “schizophrenia”. It’s much more complex than a 1:1 relationship between genes and behavioral disorders. I like how Gabor Maté explains it:

"Genes affect how sensitive one is to environment and environment affects how relevant one's genetic differences may be. When an environment changes, all bets are off. Some people will feel more pain and will therefore have greater need to escape into the adaptations that mental illness or addiction represent. They will have more need to tune out, to dissociate, to split into parts, to develop fantasies to account for realities they are unable to endure. That's a far cry from saying they have a heritable neurobiological disease.”

Here’s an article about a forthcoming summary on the failures of genetics research to explain “schizophrenia.” It mentions flaws with twin studies.
https://www.madinamerica.com/2024/01/psychiatric-yeti-schizophrenia-genetic/

Thanks, that is an interesting article. I know little to nothing about schizophrenia, so it is hard to judge. However I know enough about genetics to believe that failure to have found a gene does not disprove the possibility of something being hereditary. Too many gene not yet well understood, and the interplay of gene expression and things like behavior I believe is also poorly understood. The article makes a good point that just because something "runs in the family" is not always evidence of heredity either. Families tend to live in similar environments through generations. I did not realize how much schizophrenia has increased, that is worrisome and certainly worthy of research.

There’s more like this out there about genetics and addiction too. More on the flaws of twin studies too. I’ll try to look for more and share it. There’s been so much hype and not very many answers after decades of genetic research. For example, hype about the “alcoholism gene”. The disorder and its development are so much more complex than one gene or set of genes. Environment plays a major role but there’s hardly any focus on childhood development and encouraging healthier environments. We spend peanuts on it meanwhile we spend millions on genetic research. It’s entirely possible to change your behavior and learn healthier ways of coping. You’re not pre-determined to become mentally ill or an addict, etc.

I’ve lived this. I used to believe I had “bad” genes and needed to take medication for the rest of my life and I had doctors telling me as much. I don’t take medication at all anymore. I’ve witnessed my sister’s medical abuse too. It’s mostly BS in my opinion.

I don’t think it matters one way or the other if you believe you have a propensity to overeat because of you’re genes though. You do seem to believe a solution is to change your behavior and your environment in healthier and more positive ways to reduce overeating.

I am interested, if you find some of that research I'd read it.

However, I think you are right that in the end it doesn't matter a whole lot. Except maybe to help one feel they don't have some personality defect, but are just part of the range of normal humans. Its a problem we need to learn to deal with, no matter the reason.

 

[alligatorob]

Did you see this?

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-first-gene-therapies-treat-patients-sickle-cell-disease

That is interesting. Years ago I took a genetics course, the sickle cell anemia story was one of our case studies. The prof was an expert on genetic diseases (Eldon Gardner, for whom Gardner's syndrome was named). Sickle cell anemia, involving only the one gene made it simple and easy to understand. Unfortunately most of our genetics are not so simple.

 

[Cate]

@alligatorob
Hi, Rob. I'm happy to see you eating more & especially less processed food. I'm sure you could do better with your shopping, rather than using Hello Fresh. How different is what your wife likes to eat & what you think would be a healthy diet?

 

[Llama]

Hello Fresh mostly seems like a way to avoid spending time meal planning and shopping (and maybe to reduce the stress of infinite choices while hungry). If you the time and motivation I'm sure you can do better yourself.

 

[bensanon]

I sure feel like I am overeating...

You’re not. You’re doing great! Cate and Llama are encouraging you too, Rob! More wholesome food is fantastic!

I plan to stick to this at least a month, then weigh in and see where I am.

Oh no! This, right here. You’re viewing this through your weight. It’s obsessing on your weight still. You have to let go of this thinking, Rob. Let go of your weight and celebrate the success you’re already achieving. You are not bingeing and you’re eating more, healthier food every day. Those are wins, every day! Let that be your success and driving behavior, not your weight!

I think you need to eat even more and am interested in your activity calorie estimates…

By then the adjustments should be further along.

What do you mean by this?

 

[Llama]

I don't think it's wrong to keep counting calories, although it might make sense to aim for maintenance rather than weightloss while you're establishing your maintenance calories. And while most people tend to eat more one day and less another day that probably won't feel ok for you at least for a good while. (1200 kcal feeling safe and binging feeling alluring are both bad signs for that).
But if you have a bit of time maybe sit down and add up your calories for the past two months or so. Assume days you didn't track were binge days and reconstruct some binge days to the best of your ability to get a general idea of how many calories to add for the untracked days. Average out your calories per day and compare them to your weight change between the start and end of that time. See if 2500 kcal/day is ballpark reasonable given what the data says. Due to your activity level I expect it probably is. And if so it might ease your anxiety a little, which in turn might make it easier to stick to your plan.

 

[alligatorob]

How different is what your wife likes to eat & what you think would be a healthy diet?

We are probably closer now, if I prepare some meat to go with her vegetarian food I think it will work. Sometimes anyway. We have been sharing the Hello Fresh meals, I get half the meat, the dog the other half... Works so far but today is the last Hello Fresh day.

Hello Fresh mostly seems like a way to avoid spending time meal planning and shopping (and maybe to reduce the stress of infinite choices while hungry). If you the time and motivation I'm sure you can do better yourself.

I think you are right on the Hello Fresh thing, even this first order that was at a 50% discount it cost about what it would have at the store. At full price its no bargain. Will try it on my own for a while.

I don't think it's wrong to keep counting calories, although it might make sense to aim for maintenance rather than weightloss while you're establishing your maintenance calories. And while most people tend to eat more one day and less another day that probably won't feel ok for you at least for a good while. (1200 kcal feeling safe and binging feeling alluring are both bad signs for that).
But if you have a bit of time maybe sit down and add up your calories for the past two months or so. Assume days you didn't track were binge days and reconstruct some binge days to the best of your ability to get a general idea of how many calories to add for the untracked days. Average out your calories per day and compare them to your weight change between the start and end of that time. See if 2500 kcal/day is ballpark reasonable given what the data says. Due to your activity level I expect it probably is. And if so it might ease your anxiety a little, which in turn might make it easier to stick to your plan.

I have thought about trying to figure out how many calories were in the binges, but to be honest I don't remember well all I ate. I am sure the average was in the 2,500+ range. I was gaining weight, slowly and in spurts, sometimes down when I could hold off the binges longer. But the long term average trend was up.

You’re not. You’re doing great! Cate and Llama are encouraging you too, Rob! More wholesome food is fantastic!

Thanks, and yes Cate and Llama are being supportive. They have always said something like this is what I should be doing.

Oh no! This, right here. You’re viewing this through your weight. It’s obsessing on your weight still. You have to let go of this thinking, Rob. Let go of your weight and celebrate the success you’re already achieving. You are not bingeing and you’re eating more, healthier food every day. Those are wins, every day! Let that be your success and driving behavior, not your weight!

I can't completely let it go. To be honest I fear gaining weight at the calorie level I am eating now. So I decided to not weigh for a month and then just check to see that my weight was not going up, or going up much. It has been hard to resist the scale, I see it every time I go in the bathroom, but so far I have not stepped on it. It would make this feel better if I knew I was not gaining weight doing this. I am with you on the not bingeing being the best measure of success, but I feel the need to calibrate calories.

I still have urges and want to eat more, been able to control them so far and am hopeful I can make the month that way. Today, right now, I feel the need to eat, after a good relatively high veggie with some meat 500 calorie lunch. It doesn't just go away...

I think you need to eat even more and am interested in your activity calorie estimates…

Got a new fitbit today, charging now. Hopefully I can track things tomorrow. Will see what it says about calories burned.

What do you mean by this?

Just that I am still trying to figure out shopping, cooking, etc for the new diet. Hello Fresh was my first experiment, not an awful way to go, but I will now try just shopping for myself.

 

[alligatorob]

Today was a good day, I ate well, exercised and feel good tonight. I struggled a bit, with binge urges this afternoon and then with getting enough calories this evening. But in the end it was ok enough. Got a fitbit today, I think its working will see what it says tomorrow. I am not good with things that require apps and connect to my phone, too old I guess...

 

[Cate]

Today was a good day, I ate well, exercised and feel good tonight. I struggled a bit, with binge urges this afternoon and then with getting enough calories this evening. But in the end it was ok enough. Got a fitbit today, I think its working will see what it says tomorrow. I am not good with things that require apps and connect to my phone, too old I guess...

You’re not too old, but you may have something in common with my G. He seems to have an allergy to technology!
Well done resisting those binge urges, Rob.

 

[Llama]

Welcome to the Luddite clan The fitbit app kept crashing my computer but that's almost ten years ago.

 

[bensanon]

Hey Rob,

This is the difficult part. I understand it’s hard to get the calories up and keep them up. I am honestly telling you that it looks like you’re not eating enough and I see that fear of gaining weight. This is the state that will lead to a binge. Don’t try to control more and reduce your calorie further. Push through that whatever the number on the scale says or how weird it feels. You will be ok eating more. You will eventually level out, you will normalize and the cravings will subside but it takes time and it’s very uncomfortable for a long time.

How long have you been doing this? 10 days or so? I think the cravings are because you’re in a deficit that has caught up with you over this time. You’re already super conditioned to binge and you can’t will your way through it when you’re in this state. If you do binge, you’re not weak-willed, it’s because you haven’t eaten enough!

Let us know what the total calories burned is on your Fitbit. I looked at the past 10 days for me. My 10-day average calories burned was 3500. My average intake was 2600. I walked 49 miles (4.9 average per day). I think I’m in a bit of a deficit but I also think my Fitbit overestimates my calories by about 20%. I’ve worked this out over time and it’s individual to me. I eat enough whole food and if I lose a little weight, that’s fine. I’m not starving and I’m not in any danger of bingeing like I used to be. I hope that helps…….

 

[bensanon]

To be honest I fear gaining weight at the calorie level I am eating now. So I decided to not weigh for a month and then just check to see that my weight was not going up, or going up much. It has been hard to resist the scale, I see it every time I go in the bathroom, but so far I have not stepped on it. It would make this feel better if I knew I was not gaining weight doing this. I am with you on the not bingeing being the best measure of success, but I feel the need to calibrate calories.

If you need to, just go weigh yourself. Get it over with. If you weigh in the morning, do it tomorrow morning. You may have gone up a little because your body might be expecting a binge soon so it’s been holding onto more weight but I bet it won’t be much different than your last weigh in. Weigh yourself once and then try to let go of this again……. the fear distorts everything. It’s a gradual process of letting go. You did great not to weigh for this long.

 

[alligatorob]

Today was a reasonable day, I ate pretty well, exercised and feel good now. No urges, in fact I had to find things to eat to be sure and get enough calories.

My new fitbit came last night and I wore it for the first time. Here is what it says, as of about 7 pm:

7,151 steps
3.09 miles
143 Active Zone Minutes (Active Zone Minutes count time spent in any activity that increases your heart rate. The default goal is 150 minutes of moderate activity or 75 minutes of vigorous activity per week.)
2,278 calories burned

I still have a few hours to go to midnight, but they will not be high activity hours. Today was one of my most active days of the week, 2 hours in the gym including a circuit training class, and 1+ hours of physical therapy. So this isn't really typical. I am not going to the gym, or probably doing much exercise tomorrow so it will make an interesting contrast. I am a little skeptical of the "Active Zone Minutes" I had an older fitbit that died about a year ago. I never saw the minutes this high, despite many days I know to have been more active than today. I know its based on heart rate, next week the physical therapist offered to let me take their pulse monitor along as I exercise to compare to the fitbit, kind of a calibration. I did do one calibration with it today, when my heart rate was about 80 bpm, that agreed pretty week. However to count as an active zone minute the rate has to be a lot higher.

You’re not too old, but you may have something in common with my G. He seems to have an allergy to technology!

The too old thing was said tongue in cheek, well kind of. It's what I tell the grandkids when they want me to play a video game, I tell them its not allowed for someone my age.

Welcome to the Luddite clan

I like it, and am sure I can qualify for membership! When smart phones came out I would always ask the salesman for a phone that just made and received phone calls, voicemail optional. At first it frustrated them, but after a while they just laughed and told me no such thing exists...

 

[alligatorob]

Hey Rob,

This is the difficult part. I understand it’s hard to get the calories up and keep them up. I am honestly telling you that it looks like you’re not eating enough and I see that fear of gaining weight. This is the state that will lead to a binge. Don’t try to control more and reduce your calorie further. Push through that whatever the number on the scale says or how weird it feels. You will be ok eating more. You will eventually level out, you will normalize and the cravings will subside but it takes time and it’s very uncomfortable for a long time.

Right now I don't plan to try and reduce calories. And I am sure you are right about it taking time to adjust to.

How long have you been doing this? 10 days or so? I think the cravings are because you’re in a deficit that has caught up with you over this time. You’re already super conditioned to binge and you can’t will your way through it when you’re in this state. If you do binge, you’re not weak-willed, it’s because you haven’t eaten enough!

About 10 days is right, I know that is not long enough to expect much change. I can tell you there have been times in my life when I was eating in excess of my calorie needs, I was gaining weight. And yet my urge to binge was as strong or stronger than ever. The difference was that then I was obsessing about eating too much and feeling guilty for it. So far I am not feeling guilty about this, time will tell on the obsessing...

Let us know what the total calories burned is on your Fitbit. I looked at the past 10 days for me. My 10-day average calories burned was 3500. My average intake was 2600. I walked 49 miles (4.9 average per day). I think I’m in a bit of a deficit but I also think my Fitbit overestimates my calories by about 20%. I’ve worked this out over time and it’s individual to me. I eat enough whole food and if I lose a little weight, that’s fine. I’m not starving and I’m not in any danger of bingeing like I used to be. I hope that helps…….

Right now my fitbit says I have burned 2,304 calories, it's about 7:30, it will be more by midnight, but I will not be very active, so maybe not a lot more. As I said above today has been a more active day than usual. I know it's kind of hard to conclude much from just one day.

If you need to, just go weigh yourself. Get it over with. If you weigh in the morning, do it tomorrow morning. You may have gone up a little because your body might be expecting a binge soon so it’s been holding onto more weight but I bet it won’t be much different than your last weigh in. Weigh yourself once and then try to let go of this again……. the fear distorts everything. It’s a gradual process of letting go. You did great not to weigh for this long.

I am going to do my best to wait the month, that will make it more of a calibration than giving into the obsession. I can force myself to do most anything for a month. Not saying I will change much, or not, after that month, we will see.

Hey Rob, I appreciate your advice and the time you have given me. It has helped me gain some new insights, and new ideas.

 

[Cate]

The too old thing was said tongue in cheek, well kind of. It's what I tell the grandkids when they want me to play a video game, I tell them its not allowed for someone my age.

You are funny, Rob! I hate video games. I'm glad our GKs haven't asked me to play them.

 

[Llama]

Yay for not feeling guilty and another good day! The detail will take a while to sort out either way but even if you're off by 250 kcal/day it takes about a month to gain/lose a kilo (assuming a spherical cow, or no adjustments by your body) so it's not a big risk.

 

[bensanon]

I can tell you there have been times in my life when I was eating in excess of my calorie needs, I was gaining weight. And yet my urge to binge was as strong or stronger than ever. The difference was that then I was obsessing about eating too much and feeling guilty for it.

This sounds like not being able to distinguish between physical hunger and emotional hunger and when you need to eat something versus when you want to eat it. I believe you can learn this if you listen to and identify correctly the right signals. Also, I think the junk including any processed sugar, trans and even more saturated fats can mess with these signals and even the fact that you have additional weight can change how hormones signal satiety. If you eat flour and simple carbs they’re more quickly absorbed and spike blood sugar. Meal timing too. There’s a lot of research around these things. I believe most people, to some degree or another, desire to eat more food all the time. People can “let themselves go” by giving in and eating whatever they want. I had to accept that I couldn’t eat whatever I wanted anymore. I had to change myself at a level that was closer to my actual personality or identity. I had to allow myself to see myself as a different person. I don’t eat whatever I want anymore. I still smell and see foods that make me want to binge on them but I don’t. I say no and accept that I can’t have them. I changed and accepted a new me. Eating enough healthy whole food greatly reduced my cravings and abstaining from eating whatever looks or smells good or eating only a little helped satisfy my cravings just enough and over time it all got easier and it’s not that big of a deal anymore. I think, yeah that looks good but better not go there and I go on. It’s not my food. I changed Rob, and I think you can too if you start to look at things differently, even after a lifetime of eating that way, I believe you can change.

If you truly think you’re some other type of human with this disease (because of your genes e.g.) and you’re always going to want more and more and more and those cravings won’t ever go away, go to OA and pray to a higher power to relieve you of those obsessions. You’ll undergo a “personality change” as it states in Appendix 2 of the “Big Book” by identifying your character “defects” and pray to God to remove them. You work the steps, you make amends where needed and try to live a spiritual life and be helpful to others. You let go of your will and accept God’s will for you. That’s how it works…. I can go on and on about all that but just trying to give you the basics so you can decide if you actually think OA is a good solution for you. There are plenty of other helpful messages if you just show up to meetings too and just listen which is totally fine to do, you don’t have to believe in all that other stuff.

Right now my fitbit says I have burned 2,304 calories, it's about 7:30, it will be more by midnight, but I will not be very active, so maybe not a lot more. As I said above today has been a more active day than usual. I know it's kind of hard to conclude much from just one day.

Cool. Glad this gives you some idea. Seems like you’ll be able to work out where you should be each day and the margins to stay within. My suggestion is to keep those margins small every day, no extreme deficits or excesses. I think Fitbits tend to overestimate expenditures 15-20%.

I can force myself to do most anything for a month.

This mentality is very worrisome. It’s ok to acknowledge how you feel and deal with it honestly and appropriately. Forcing is part of the problem in my experience.

Hey Rob, I appreciate your advice and the time you have given me. It has helped me gain some new insights, and new ideas.

You’re welcome, Rob! Glad it’s been helpful.