alligatorob
Respected Member
Thanks for those. You are eating well, and a lot of food.
Alligatorob's Diary
- Thread starter alligatorob
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though You’re not ready. You need to be able to rely on enough wholesome nutritious food every day. Take time to figure this out so you can rely on it day in and day out. If you don’t have this, you’ll reach for junk. This has to be solid.
Good. If it’s too much food, you’re less likely to binge on it. If it feels weird, push through it anyway.
Sounds good, Rob. If you eat 2000 calories of healthy food consistently, you will eventually lose weight. But get an activity tracker and pay attention to the margins and not that 2000 number. Maybe you lose 1 pound a month but that’s absolutely fine because you’re no longer living in extremes. You can’t afford extremes anymore with your history. You will binge if you go extreme. Let go of the extreme thinking and behavior. Think much smaller margins and slower or no weight loss. Weight loss probably won’t happen for months, when your body is healthier and used to adequate calories.
Do you feel shame because of the extra 25 pounds? Is it because you’re not at a perfect weight? Why do you feel ashamed? Accept yourself. All of yourself. Today. Right now. Rejecting yourself because of some ideal or image you have in your mind in the future is the problem. Accept yourself and love yourself today, including those extra 25 pounds. Even if you were 400 pounds heavier, I would be saying the same thing. The healthier mindset is to love and accept yourself no matter what weight you are. You’re not going to binge or restrict if you truly do. You’re not the number on the scale. This is an OA message and I think it’s a really good one. If it helps, think about the people that love you and what you’ve accomplished in your life and everything you’ve already achieved with getting healthier. People see you now and know your history and they love you just the same. You are enough, just the way you are. You can still get healthier but you have to start from that mindset first. Make sense?
There’s a lot more to unpack here, Rob. What messages and history do you have in your head that are driving your behavior?
alligatorob
Respected Member
Today wasn't a bad day, still not really transitioned to my new diet approach but working on it. I ordered a thing from HelloFresh www.hellofresh.com a few of the "healthy" meals and tried the cranberry kale salad one. I substituted tuna for the chicken and left out the butter and some of the fatter ingredients. Calories were kind of a guess, but probably not too far wrong. For lunch I had some banana bread and cookies, ate on the run no time to do much better. We got a whole lot more snow and even working until dark I did not get finished clearing the driveway... This is a shot before I started clearing the snow, and its supposed to snow more tonight.
That does sound like a good idea. What a lot of people here do is set up a small tent and run a propane heater. Not quite sure how I will do it, probably need to go with the friend who knows what he's doing. Seems ice fishing, like all similar endeavors, offers lots of stuff for lots of money to get set up, not really sure I need it all.
My favorite quote on ice fishing came from a guy I used to work with in Alaska. He described his set up, a small hut on the ice with a heater and stereo to keep him company. He was in Fairbanks where it is much colder than here. After he described it all in great detail I asked him if it was fun. He said "Hell no, but what else are you going to do in winter around here". He kind of had a point.
alligatorob
Respected Member
You are right, it will take some adjustment but I think I am slowly getting there.
I will get an activity tracker, actually ordered one so that will help. I'd be happy with losing a pound a month, that's 12 lbs a year.
Thanks Rob, that does make sense. I don't really feel ashamed, more of a bit self consciousness. And a fear that I could regain lots of the weight I lost.
I can think of a couple of ways of answering that. On the one hand I cannot forget over 60 years of being obese, that weighs heavily on my thoughts. As to what drives the craving and bingeing after much reflection and self searching I can only think it's a genetic thing, an instinct to eat whatever I can get my hands on. Through most of human history that would not have been a bad trait, but today it is a disease.
Llama
Well-known member
I'm glad to see you're trying to eat more calories from whole food sources. Best of luck! Doesn't Hello Fresh tell you the nutritional information with each pack? Looks like you could've eaten the meal as planned by them and still been within calories no problem.
Ice fishing - or any line fishing where you just sit and wait - looks like an excuse to sit quietly in a meditative state to me.
Ice fishing - or any line fishing where you just sit and wait - looks like an excuse to sit quietly in a meditative state to me.
alligatorob
Respected Member
Today was a good day, I ate well, exercised a little and feel good tonight. And we got no more snow! It actually got above freezing today and I was able to get the plowing done. This isn't the most snow we have gotten, but it sure was the hardest to get plowed I have had to deal with.
Kind of, they give you a total and the packages of meat have calories on them, but if you don't use or eat everything its hard to figure out what the total is. Also the calories on the menu do not match those on MyFitnessPal. Oh well, good enough I guess.
Actually yesterday's salad was listed with over 1,000 calories, if you ate everything. A bit much I think. Today's was lower. In the end you are probably right, if you just ate the meal as your biggest of the day things would probably workout.
Or smoke a cigar and sip a whiskey?
Llama
Well-known member
Some might say that's the same thing
Cate
Long term member
I'm glad the snow has stopped, at least for now!
The calories on MFP are just what someone like you or I puts in, so going with what they put on their packages should be more accurate. Good enough is good enough if we're not being obsessive.
You could go ice fishing & smoke a cigar & sip a whiskey?
Yeah, it doesn’t seem like a lot of shame with you, maybe the next day feels that way sometimes though.… It sounds like the extra 25 pounds might hurt your pride a little bit? Or a projection you have of yourself? It also seems like you’re not able to fully trust yourself to live binge free or to not end up like you’ve lived for so long? Maybe on some level, you know you haven’t beaten this thing? You know how you got there and you can easily get back there and you just don’t fully trust yourself that you won’t end up like that again?
Do you also think, “Why can’t I have some of that? I can have some if I want! No one can tell me differently!”? Would you say you have that kind of attitude sometimes?
alligatorob
Respected Member
Not real proud of yesterday's food, but it was only about 10% above my 2,000 calorie goal, and I don't believe any bingeing, so I will call it a learning experience. Also the cookies and banana bread are now gone. Otherwise I got in good exercise and feel pretty good. Slept in this morning and probably will not go to the gym, plenty to do here without it.
Yep, that was my thinking.Some might say that's the same thing
I might, but I really don't do much of either. Probably smoked half a dozen cigars in the last year, and I gave up any drinking whilst fishing years ago.
I most think about it in the gym. Lots of mirrors and just shorts and a tee shirt, I can see that I am not as slim as I was at my lowest. However, as I said I know its not really that much and I am probably healthy even with it. When I got down into the 140s I did not feel well, light headed and dizzy. That went away when I got back up into the 160s, that is the reason I think the 160s should be my ultimate goal.
Absolutely, right on! I know I have not beaten it, and so long as I binge or have strong binge craves I don't think I will. In fact, I am not sure that I will ever be comfortable that I have beaten it, only that I have found a way to manage it. As OA says, I think I will always be a compulsive overeater, just hopefully a recovering one...
Yep, all too often, and all too often it has lead to a binge. The problem is it is kind of true, and would not hurt me if I only gave in once in a while. However I know when I give in once, the next binge is sooner and easier, and stopping is harder.
alligatorob
Respected Member
Today was a better food day, and I feel good tonight. Did not go to the gym, but kept busy cleaning up after the banana brandy thing, it is a lot more mess than the peaches were. Had the first of my banana brandy, it has a very distinct banana taste, much more than the peach. I think its good. Problem is MFP doesn't seem to list banana brandy calories, had to go with generic brandy.
Seems like lunch was a struggle the day before last but the calories were much much better. Yesterday it seems like you didn’t really have much of a dinner and calories were much worse. Of the 2 days, the day before looked a lot better to me. It looks like you’re trying to control your calories and have a resistance to anything above 2000. That control and fear are the problem.
Seems like you’re not able to accept yourself the way you are right now! Like you said, you are probably healthy even with it. What ideal are you trying to achieve?
It would take a long time of straight bingeing to get over 350 again, right? It’s irrational, considering all you’ve done, to think you’d end up back there in an instant and to control everything you do today based on that fear. Let go a little bit more, Rob. This is the process of letting go. One day, you may believe there’s nothing wrong with you!
I didn’t like that label in OA. I believe it is counterproductive. People would talk about themselves as “recovered”, not “recovering” after a certain amount of time which I think is a little better. I think if I were to start eating junk food all day, all week, I could end up back there pretty quickly. I could get hooked on bingeing and restricting again and get sugar highs and crashes and that would be familiar to me. I don’t believe there’s something inherently wrong with me that I need to follow the OA program to keep myself from that and that is the only solution. I believe I’m much healthier now and if I have a bad food day, I’ll be totally fine. I’m not going to flip out and clamp down on my control. Some people in OA believed that if they had a little bit of sugar (e.g., in the fruit salad at a potluck) they would end up in years long relapse. The rigidity around that and irrational thinking, to me, is part of the problem.That said, OA may work for you, Rob. They believe in that “first compulsive bite.” And that it sets off an “allergy of the body” that brings on the addiction cycle. To me, that was nonsense. If I have a bite of cake, I’ll be ok and I don’t need to obsess about it. If I keep eating the cake and eat the whole thing and repeatedly overeat like that, I will start obsessing and compulsively bingeing again and then restricting to try to control my calories. Maybe a normal eater can eat a whole cake and not get in this cycle but if they keep doing it they’ll eventually develop this cycle or some variant of disordered eating, in my opinion.
If I start thinking I can have anything I want and no one can stop me, I’m already in self-defeat. No one cares what I eat and I will only end up hurting myself. If I’m thinking that way, it’s usually because I’m already in restriction and I’m starving already and I’m at the point that I don’t care and I want relief. It’s a sign that I haven’t been treating myself well already and I need to do a lot of self-care to get out of that attitude and thinking. Otherwise, it’s just harming myself. Does that make sense?
alligatorob
Respected Member
Today I was pretty close to the 2,000 mark, but I feel uncomfortably full tonight. Oh well, not so bad as after a binge... No gym today, but back tomorrow.
I think of it as a little like sickle cell anemia. The genes that cause sickle cell anemia also impart a degree of malaria resistance. So many tropical populations developed the gene. With the good malaria prevention and treatment we have today it is seen as a disease, and it is one. Just as the instinct to overeat may have once been a benefit today its a disease.
Anyway those are my non expert views of it, I could be wrong.
Compulsive is a kind of derogatory word for something I believe to be a natural instinct. But it is pretty true. Humans practiced many things in our past, a lot of violence was common place for most of our existence. We have managed to overcome at least some of that to make civilization work. If we can do that I am hoping I can figure out how to better live with my feelings of compulsion, natural or not.
Thanks, I am glad too, it was more work than the peach and I was a bit worried. At the rate I drink I have a supply of about 50 years now, LOL. Probably end up giving most of it away. And I am sure you are right about the calories.
I am controlling, I have to. If I didn't I'd eat 5,000+ calories. I know the consequences of not controlling. I think I just need to find a way to more comfortably control and not binge.
Good question, I think I would be happy to find a way to not binge. And I think that includes no strong urges, resisting those urges every day just doesn't seem to work. I am coming to believe weight is secondary. However all things being equal I think 25 lbs or so down would make me happier with my weight.
Not so long. I have lost over 100 lbs before, and I know when the diet ends I can gain 100 lbs back in less than a year. Much easier and quicker than losing it. I don't even have to think about it, just comes naturally.
I am not sure there is anything wrong with me, I just have the urge to eat more than is good for me. As I have said I think this is a genetic trait, like all such traits some people have more than others. Like height, some are shorter some are taller. I believe I am just at the extreme end of eating. For millions of years this could be a favorable trait, most of human existence we have lived in times of restriction driven by food shortage. However that trait does not serve me well today, and leads to lots of problems. When cave people got fat they slowed down and could not get as much food, it was naturally controlled.It’s irrational, considering all you’ve done, to think you’d end up back there in an instant and to control everything you do today based on that fear. Let go a little bit more, Rob. This is the process of letting go. One day, you may believe there’s nothing wrong with you!
I think of it as a little like sickle cell anemia. The genes that cause sickle cell anemia also impart a degree of malaria resistance. So many tropical populations developed the gene. With the good malaria prevention and treatment we have today it is seen as a disease, and it is one. Just as the instinct to overeat may have once been a benefit today its a disease.
Anyway those are my non expert views of it, I could be wrong.
Its really hard for me to know what that “first compulsive bite” is, but by the 5th or so in a row it becomes clearer. Yes I can eat a few cookies or a piece of cake, but I know those bites are more likely to lead to a binge than if I don't start. That said I have been eating a few cookies of late without problems, but it is kind of a relief to have them gone.
Compulsive is a kind of derogatory word for something I believe to be a natural instinct. But it is pretty true. Humans practiced many things in our past, a lot of violence was common place for most of our existence. We have managed to overcome at least some of that to make civilization work. If we can do that I am hoping I can figure out how to better live with my feelings of compulsion, natural or not.
I think so, you are right few people care much what others eat, it is our responsibility to control our own eating. It is nice and rare to get help from others, and I appreciate yours.
Llama
Well-known member
Slight correction here, even though it doesn't influence your simile too much: having one copy of the hemoglobin beta gene found on chromosome 11p15 gives you a reasonable degree of malaria resistance while inheriting one from both parents gives you sickle cell anemia. Which would always have been considered a disease (if people had known what was going on) since it comes with great pain, often multiple mini strokes starting in early childhood, and severe infections. At that point it doesn't matter if you have even perfect malaria resistance (I don't actually know if two copies would protect more than one) because most sufferers would never have come close to reaching adulthood before antibiotics. And we still don't have a cure, we can only treat symptoms. In evolutionary terms a mutation that kills off a quarter of your kids would be perfectly fine if it gives half your offspring reasonable protection against an infectious disease that would normally kill much more than a quarter of them. But that doesn't mean humans would ever have been fine with it.
You’re doing great, Rob!
That is, “any behavior that gives you temporary relief, temporary pleasure, but in the long term causes harm, has some negative consequences and you can’t give it up, despite those negative consequences.”
That’s Gabor Maté’s definition of addiction. I like some of his other quotes about genetics:
"Genetics, that neutral impersonal handmaiden of nature seems to absolve us of responsibility and of its ominous shadow, guilt"
"If genes truly rule our fate like capricious microscopic gods then we are off the hook"
"The genetic argument is used to justify social inequalities and injustices that are otherwise hard to defend"
As far as the comparison with sickle cell, sickle cell is not a behavioral disorder. Genetic research for behavioral disorders hasn’t panned out. Our genes don’t determine our behaviors and explain only a fraction (less than 1%) of these disorders. Environmental and familial factors explain much much more (50% or more). Much of our environment is toxic (which I think we agree on) and that causes many people to cope with pain with these types of behaviors. The research is already there but we don’t want to take responsibility and deal with the truth. Genetics is a great justification more acceptable to all!
The process is to make a list of your “alcoholic” or red light foods and don’t eat them. For most people that is “recreational” (added) sugar and white flour. Then, you eat by your food plan, kind of like you’re doing now, never wavering from that, and you work the steps indefinitely as a way of life for the rest of your life and God restores you to sanity that way.
There is a lot of wisdom in 12 step rooms apart from the steps and there’s healing in being a part of a community like that. My belief is that the social support and connection and community approach are the real power behind these 12 step programs.
Fair enough, for now……. I do believe you will heal in time and learn to relax control if you consistently eat enough and eat healthy. If you eat all legumes, whole grains, fruits and vegetables, it will make it easier. I don’t obsess on a number anymore and if I have a bad day, it doesn’t spiral out. That said, I don’t eat added sugar or processed foods and am vigilant about that.
I do believe you have to learn healthier behaviors. I had to retrain myself not to reach for food. I go for walks, call someone, walk away, relax, etc. when I’m feeling overwhelmed, bored, sad, too excited, etc. It took a long time.
I think the genetic explanation is a copout. These behaviors are similar to gambling addiction, shopping, work, porn, sex, video games, TV/internet, etc.
That is, “any behavior that gives you temporary relief, temporary pleasure, but in the long term causes harm, has some negative consequences and you can’t give it up, despite those negative consequences.”
That’s Gabor Maté’s definition of addiction. I like some of his other quotes about genetics:
"Genetics, that neutral impersonal handmaiden of nature seems to absolve us of responsibility and of its ominous shadow, guilt"
"If genes truly rule our fate like capricious microscopic gods then we are off the hook"
"The genetic argument is used to justify social inequalities and injustices that are otherwise hard to defend"
As far as the comparison with sickle cell, sickle cell is not a behavioral disorder. Genetic research for behavioral disorders hasn’t panned out. Our genes don’t determine our behaviors and explain only a fraction (less than 1%) of these disorders. Environmental and familial factors explain much much more (50% or more). Much of our environment is toxic (which I think we agree on) and that causes many people to cope with pain with these types of behaviors. The research is already there but we don’t want to take responsibility and deal with the truth. Genetics is a great justification more acceptable to all!
OA may work for you. There are many people in OA who believe they were born with the disorder. Belief is a powerful thing. It can be more powerful than the truth and that can work for many people. They believe that “a power greater than themselves can restore us to sanity.” If you believe you’re pre-determined to overeat because it’s fundamentally who you are, why not try OA? Step 3 is: “Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.”
The process is to make a list of your “alcoholic” or red light foods and don’t eat them. For most people that is “recreational” (added) sugar and white flour. Then, you eat by your food plan, kind of like you’re doing now, never wavering from that, and you work the steps indefinitely as a way of life for the rest of your life and God restores you to sanity that way.
There is a lot of wisdom in 12 step rooms apart from the steps and there’s healing in being a part of a community like that. My belief is that the social support and connection and community approach are the real power behind these 12 step programs.
alligatorob
Respected Member
Today was a good day, I ate my 2,000 calories of mostly good food, exercised, and I feel good tonight. I have to say this new diet is taking a little getting used to, don't know that I have ever planned to eat this much. Makes a normal day feel more like a binge physically, I know its less food than most of my binges, but it still has that same full feeling.
Since I went ice fishing and all the snow it has warmed up a bit. The lake ice is melting, and a couple of people fell through. Guess I won't be ice fishing until the weather turns.
Since I went ice fishing and all the snow it has warmed up a bit. The lake ice is melting, and a couple of people fell through. Guess I won't be ice fishing until the weather turns.
You are right, of course. And while its not a perfect analogy I don't think its bad. Most of our traits are more complex than the one gene thing of sickle cell anemia, I am sure our eating instincts are.
I am working towards something like that, but it does seem like an awful lot of... fiber... or something. Anyway I am eating more like you than before, and still working on it. I try not to eat much added sugar or processed food, but probably am not as strict about it as you.
I need to do some retraining too, not just reaching for food is a hard one.
I don't see it as a copout, just the best explanation for what underlies the behavior. I have not given much thought to the other addictions, so can't comment on much. Except that I do see some similarities. However I have never felt addicted to anything else, except maybe caffeine.
I think that definition makes sense, much of our behavior is not entirely rational. However I disagree with the one that suggests "we are off the hook", to the contrary it is something we need to work to figure out how to live with.
That is interesting. You appear more knowledgeable than I on this subject. Can you point me to research that suggests "Our genes don’t determine our behaviors and explain only a fraction (less than 1%) of these disorders. Environmental and familial factors explain much much more (50% or more)." It would be helpful. I know some of the identical twin studies, studies of twins separted at birth have shown some very interesting behavioral similarities despite very different environments. However I don't know of any that have looked at addictive behavior.
I am pretty sure I was. My mother tells me that as her first she did not know how much to feed me when leaving the hospital, the doctor told her just to feed me as much as I wanted. First visit back the doctor was shocked at how fat I had grown, and suggested cutting back on the food. Been fighting the battle ever since.
I can see the point that belief is important, at least with respect to how I got here. But in the end I am not sure it matters if I am right or not, it is still something that needs control. I do have some problems believing the turning my will and life over thing.
I agree there are some good things in the OA program, and from what you have said it sounds like they have changed since I last went (1980s). Probably for the best.