Eiweißplus=Abnehmstop. Hilfe...

M

MarcY

New member
Hallo zusammen,



da steht sie nun, die Waage, die hier immer verteufelt wird, aber auf die ich trotzdem immer wieder hereinfalle...



Bis vor ca. 2-3 Wochen nahm ich kontinuierlich ab. Ich betreibe 3x pro Woche Fitnesstraining (2x moderates Krafttraining und 3x 60min. Ausdauertraining auf dem Crosstrainer @HF160, bin 25 Jahre alt).



Bis vor 2-3 Wochen habe ich mich "normal" ernährt, also kohlenhydratreich, auch Gemüse, Obst etc., 1-2x pro Woche ein Stückchen Fleisch. Ich nahm also ab, von 104 auf 100kg innerhalb von etwa anderthalb Monaten.



Dann habe ich auf mehrfachen Rat hier im Forum die Ernährung zugunsten des Eiweißanteils verschoben, und versuche momentan, mindestens 100g/Tag zu mir zu nehmen, manchmal schaffe ich auch 120. Dabei kann ich mein Limit von 2000kcal/d nicht mehr ganz halten (denn satt werde ich von dem Quark z.B. nicht), aber mehr als 2300 sind es auf keinen Fall.



Und ich nehme jetzt nicht mehr ab. Kein Gramm. Obwohl ich weiterhin das gleiche Sportpensum betreibe. Die Waage schwankt konstant zwischen 100 und 101. Wenn ich mal länger trainiere, gehts auch mal gegen 102, aber nie unter 100.



Eigentlich wollte ich diese Frage erst mit Hilfe des Fettmeßgerätes selber zu beantworten versuchen (das krieg ich aber erst Weihnachten). Ich glaube schon, daß ich etwas an Muskulatur zulege, aber derartig, daß es die Fettreduktion kompensiert? Der "Hosenkneiftest" von Kurt zeigt eigentlich auch keine besondere Gewichtsabnahme. Ich fühle mich schon wohler, seit ich trainiere, und ich tue das in erster Linie für meine Gesundheit, aber ich will unbedingt abnehmen. Habe ich vor der Umstellung auf mehr Eiweiß vielleicht doch nur Muskulatur verloren? Was kann ich machen, um doch auch noch Fett zu verlieren?? Ein KF-Anteil von 25% (Stand: vor 1 Monat, mit so nem Laienteil von nais gemessen), das ist doch ekelhaft. Umfangreicheres Krafttraining? Für mehr Ausdauertraining ist meine Zeit auch etwas knapp... diese 3x pro Woche krieg ich aber gut hin, also regelmäßig.



Silvi hat mir geschrieben, 2000kcal/d seien für mich zu wenig, aber ich nehme ja schon jetzt nicht ab, was wäre dann, wenn ich mehr äße.



Au weia, bitte lacht nicht allzu laut über mich, ich bin echt ratlos.



Ein paar Ratschläge von Euch wären ein tolles Weihnachtsgeschenk ;-))



Grüße

Marc
 
Naja, es kann schon sein, daß Du halt Muskelmasse aufbaust (das ist sogar ziemlich sicher), und gleichzeitig Fett abbaust. Immerhin betreibst du ja Krafttraining, und somit wachsen auch deine Muskeln. Angesichts dieser Tatsache wäre ein konstantes Gewicht eigentlich ok, da du im gleichem Maße Fett verlierst, wie du Muskelmasse aufbaust -> Du wirst also magerer, obwohl dein Gewicht gleich bleibt.



Du mußt dabei auch bedenken, daß deine Muskelmasse eine gute Investition in die Zukunft ist. Soweit ich weiß benötigt der Körper für jedes zusätzliche kg Muskelmasse ca. 60 kcal/d um diese zu erhalten, also ohne daß diese Muskeln etwas tun. Wenn du also 5 kg Muskelmasse zulegst, wirst du ohne etwas dazu tun zu müssen, 300 kcal/d mehr verbrauchen.



Das ist ja auch der Grund, aus dem die bemitleidenswerten Leute, welche Fastenkuren betreiben dem Jojo-Effekt zum Opfer fallen. Sie verlieren bei ihrer Unterernährung Muskelmasse, wodurch der GU sinkt. Dadurch kommt es zur Stagnation der Fettreduktion, und bei der Wiederaufnahme der alten Eßgewohnheiten schießen sie dann sogar über ihr altes Gewicht hinaus.



Also intensiviere ruhig dein Krafttraining noch weiter, insbesondere die Beine und der Rücken lassen sich ausgezeichnet aufbauen :)



Und später beobachtest du dann die Ausdauerfreaks, die kein Krafttraining machen, wie sie jeden Tag eine Stunde laufen gehen um den gleichen Verbrauch zu erzielen, den du hast, während du im Sessel sitzt und sie anfeuerst ;-)



Dan letzten Absatz bitte nicht ganz ernst nehmen ;-)



Gruß

Bortas
 
Bortas Antwort ist nichts hinzuzufügen ;-)

hallo marc,

auch ich kann dir nur zu einer intensivierung deines krafttrainings raten (2x/woche à 40 - max 60 min), um einen entsprechenden "nachbrenneffekt" zu induzieren. als "beweis" siehe folgenden auszug aus der wissenschaftlichen primärliteratur:



1. Metabolism 1994 Jul;43(7):814-8



Impact of exercise intensity on body fatness and skeletal muscle metabolism.



Tremblay A, Simoneau JA, Bouchard C.



Physical Activity Sciences Laboratory, Laval University, Ste-Foy, Quebec,

Canada.



The impact of two different modes of training on body fatness and skeletal

muscle metabolism was investigated in young adults who were subjected to either

a 20-week endurance-training (ET) program (eight men and nine women) or a

15-week high-intensity intermittent-training (HIIT) program (five men and five

women). The mean estimated total energy cost of the ET program was 120.4 MJ,

whereas the corresponding value for the HIIT program was 57.9 MJ. Despite its

lower energy cost, the HIIT program induced a more pronounced reduction in

subcutaneous adiposity compared with the ET program. When corrected for the

energy cost of training, the decrease in the sum of six subcutaneous skinfolds

induced by the HIIT program was ninefold greater than by the ET program. Muscle

biopsies obtained in the vastus lateralis before and after training showed that

both training programs increased similarly the level of the citric acid cycle

enzymatic marker. On the other hand, the activity of muscle glycolytic enzymes

was increased by the HIIT program, whereas a decrease was observed following the

ET program. The enhancing effect of training on muscle 3-hydroxyacyl coenzyme A

dehydrogenase (HADH) enzyme activity, a marker of the activity of

beta-oxidation, was significantly greater after the HIIT program. In conclusion,

these results reinforce the notion that for a given level of energy expenditure,

vigorous exercise favors negative energy and lipid balance to a greater extent

than exercise of low to moderate intensity. Moreover, the metabolic adaptations

taking place in the skeletal muscle in response to the HIIT program appear to

favor the process of lipid oxidation.





2. Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord 2001 Mar;25(3):332-9



Impact of high-intensity exercise on energy expenditure, lipid oxidation and

body fatness.



Yoshioka M, Doucet E, St-Pierre S, Almeras N, Richard D, Labrie A, Despres JP,

Bouchard C, Tremblay A.



Division of Kinesiology, Laval University, Ste-Foy, Quebec, Canada.



OBJECTIVE: Two studies were conducted to assess the potential of an increase in

exercise intensity to alter energy and lipid metabolism and body fatness under

conditions mimicking real life. METHODS: Study 1 was based on the comparison of

adiposity markers obtained in 352 male healthy adults who participated in the

Quebec Family Study who either regularly participated in high-intensity physical

activities or did not. Study 2 was designed to determine the effects of

high-intensity exercise on post-exercise post-prandial energy and lipid

metabolism as well as the contribution of beta-adrenergic stimulation to such

differences under a real-life setting. RESULTS: Results from Study 1 showed that

men who regularly take part in intense physical activities display lower fat

percentage and subcutaneous adiposity than men who never perform such

activities, and this was true even if the latter group reported a lower energy

intake (917 kJ/day, P<0.05). In Study 2, the high-intensity exercise stimulus

produced a greater post-exercise post-prandial oxygen consumption as well as fat

oxidation than the resting session, an effect which disappeared with the

addition of propranolol. In addition, the increase in post-prandial oxygen

consumption observed after the high-intensity exercise session was also

significantly greater than that promoted by the low-intensity exercise session.

CONCLUSION: These results suggest that high-intensity exercise favors a lesser

body fat deposition which might be related to an increase in post-exercise

energy metabolism that is mediated by beta-adrenergic stimulation.





3. Am J Clin Nutr 1990 Feb;51(2):153-7



Effect of intensity of physical activity on body fatness and fat distribution.



Tremblay A, Despres JP, Leblanc C, Craig CL, Ferris B, Stephens T, Bouchard C.



Physical Activity Sciences Laboratory, Laval University, Ste-Foy, Quebec,

Canada.



To evaluate the effect of intensity of physical activity on body fatness and fat

distribution, observations of 1366 women and 1257 men who participated in the

1981 Canada Fitness Survey were analyzed. Subjects were tested for energy

expenditure of leisure-time activities and estimated maximal oxygen uptake

(VO2max), body fatness was measured by subcutaneous skinfold thicknesses, and

anthropometric measurements were made. Subjects of both sexes were categorized

into four subgroups on the basis of their participation in leisure-time

activities of various intensities. In general, subjects practicing vigorous

activities on a regular basis had lower subcutaneous skinfold thicknesses and

waist-to-hip ratios (WHRs) than those not performing these activities. These

differences remained statistically significant after a covariance analysis was

used to remove the effect of total energy expenditure of leisure-time activities

on subcutaneous fat and fat distribution. Moreover, the WHR remained

significantly lower in subjects performing high-intensity exercise after the

effect of subcutaneous fat on fat distribution was adjusted for.





4. Sports Med 1985 May-Jun;2(3):223-33



The effects of exercise-training on energy balance and adipose tissue morphology

and metabolism.



Tremblay A, Despres JP, Bouchard C.



The effects of exercise training on energy expenditure, energy intake, fat cell

size and adipose tissue lipolysis have been reviewed. Individuals engaged in

regular and intense training programmes, e.g. long distance runners, seem to

exhibit an elevated resting metabolic rate but moderate training is not

accompanied by any important change. Diet-induced thermogenesis is a significant

component of daily energy expenditure. It is still unclear whether or not

exercise or training causes significant alteration in the thermic response to

food intake. Energy expenditure associated with physical activity can play a

meaningful role in body composition and adipose tissue metabolism. Largest

weight losses have been achieved with programmes of long duration, presumably

without marked compensation in food intake. However, it has been shown

repeatedly that an increase in energy expenditure with exercise training tends

to be associated with an elevation in food intake in free-living individuals.

Weight loss is concomitant with a reduction in fat cell diameter and, when

caused by an exercise training programme, it is generally accompanied by an

increase in fat cell lipolytic activities. There are clear indications that

weight loss induced by exercise training has a much higher fat content than

weight loss caused by dieting. In addition, data suggest that exercise training

may result in a greater depletion of fat stores than a low calorie diet, thus

delaying the advent of the resistance phase to fat loss. Data on human subjects

derived from well controlled energy balance and metabolic experiments are needed

to further advance our understanding about the effects of exercise training on

the adipose tissue.
 
noch ein paar papers aus "medline"

in MEDLINE gibt's hunderte studien zu diesem themenkreis...

hier noch ein paar:



J Am Coll Nutr 1999 Apr;18(2):115-21



Effects of resistance vs. aerobic training combined with an 800 calorie liquid

diet on lean body mass and resting metabolic rate.



Bryner RW, Ullrich IH, Sauers J, Donley D, Hornsby G, Kolar M, Yeater R.



Department of Human Performance and Applied Exercise Science, West Virginia

University, Morgantown 26506, USA.



OBJECTIVE: Utilization of very-low-calorie diets (VLCD) for weight loss results

in loss of lean body weight (LBW) and a decrease in resting metabolic rate

(RMR). The addition of aerobic exercise does not prevent this. The purpose of

this study was to examine the effect of intensive, high volume resistance

training combined with a VLCD on these parameters. METHODS: Twenty subjects (17

women, three men), mean age 38 years, were randomly assigned to either standard

treatment control plus diet (C+D), n = 10, or resistance exercise plus diet

(R+D), n = 10. Both groups consumed 800 kcal/day liquid formula diets for 12

weeks. The C+D group exercised 1 hour four times/week by walking, biking or

stair climbing. The R+D group performed resistance training 3 days/week at 10

stations increasing from two sets of 8 to 15 repetitions to four sets of 8 to 15

repetitions by 12 weeks. Groups were similar at baseline with respect to weight,

body composition, aerobic capacity, and resting metabolic rate. RESULTS: Maximum

oxygen consumption (Max VO2) increased significantly (p<0.05) but equally in

both groups. Body weight decreased significantly more (p<0.01) in C+D than R+D.

The C+D group lost a significant (p<0.05) amount of LBW (51 to 47 kg). No

decrease in LBW was observed in R+D. In addition, R+D had an increase (p<0.05)

in RMR O2 ml/kg/min (2.6 to 3.1). The 24 hour RMR decreased (p<0.05) in the C+D

group. CONCLUSION: The addition of an intensive, high volume resistance training

program resulted in preservation of LBW and RMR during weight loss with a VLCD.

---



J Am Coll Nutr 1997 Feb;16(1):68-73



The effects of exercise intensity on body composition, weight loss, and dietary

composition in women.



Bryner RW, Toffle RC, Ullrich IH, Yeater RA.



Department of Exercise Physiology, School of Medicine, West Virginia University,

Morgantown, USA.



OBJECTIVE: There is controversy over whether exercise and/or exercise intensity

has an effect on total caloric intake or diet composition. The purpose of this

study was to test the effect of exercise intensity without dietary manipulation

on body composition and/or weight loss and to determine whether exercise

intensity affected total caloric intake or diet composition in normal weight

young women. METHODS: Fifteen women aged 18 to 34 years with a maximal oxygen

consumption average or below on the Palo Alto norms served as subjects. Subjects

were randomly assigned to: 1) low heart rate intensity exercise group (LI, N =

7) which exercised 40 to 45 minutes approximately four times weekly at a mean

heart rate of 132 beats per minute (bpm); 2) high heart rate intensity group

(HI, N = 8) which exercised 40 to 45 minutes approximately four times weekly at

a mean HR of 163 bpm. All subjects were given a maximal exercise test prior to

and during weeks eight, 12 and 16. The first 4 weeks served as a control period,

followed by approximately 11 weeks of exercise. Each subject recorded her

dietary intake for 1 complete week, including a weekend, during weeks 2, 6, 10

and 14 of the study. RESULTS: VO2 max increased (p < .05) in HI (29 +/- 6

ml/kg/minute to 38 +/- 7) but did not change in LI (36 +/- 5 to 38 +/- 7).

Percent fat decreased in HI (p < .05) (27 +/- 7 to 22 +/- 4) but was unchanged

in LI (22 +/- 6 to 21 +/- 6). The weekly intake of total kcal, carbohydrate,

protein and fat did change significantly for either group. The weekly intake of

saturated fat declined significantly (p < .05) in HI (21.2 +/- 5.8 g to 14.9 +/-

5.5 g); their weekly intake of cholesterol also decreased (p < .05) between

months 2 to 3 (249 +/- 109 mg to 159 +/- 58 mg). No other differences in dietary

intake between groups were found. CONCLUSION: High heart rate intensity exercise

training without dietary manipulation resulted in a decrease in body fat, but

not weight change, as well as a decrease in the intake of saturated fat and

cholesterol in normal weight young women. These changes were not observed after

low heart rate intensity training.

---



Am J Clin Nutr 1992 Apr;55(4):802-10



The effects of either high-intensity resistance or endurance training on resting

metabolic rate.



Broeder CE, Burrhus KA, Svanevik LS, Wilmore JH.



Department of Kinesiology and Health Education, University of Texas, Austin.



The effects of either 12-wk of high-intensity endurance or resistance training

on resting metabolic rate (RMR) were investigated in 47 males aged 18-35 y.

Subjects were randomly assigned to either a control (C), resistance-trained (RT)

or endurance-trained (ET) group. After training both exercise groups showed

significant declines in relative body fat either by reducing their total fat

weight and maintaining fat-free weight (ET) or by reducing their total fat

weight and increasing fat-free weight (RT). RMR did not significantly change

after either training regimen although a small decline in energy intake was

observed along with an increase in energy expenditure [ET, 2.721 MJ (650 kcal)

per training day]. These results suggest that both endurance and resistance

training may help to prevent an attenuation in RMR normally observed during

extended periods of negative energy balance (energy intake less than

expenditure) by either preserving or increasing a person's fat-free weight.

---



Am J Clin Nutr 1991 Jul;54(1):56-61



Effects of a very-low-calorie diet and physical-training regimens on body

composition and resting metabolic rate in obese females.



Donnelly JE, Pronk NP, Jacobsen DJ, Pronk SJ, Jakicic JM.



Human Performance Lab, Kearney State College, NE.



Sixty-nine obese females received 90 d of a liquid diet providing 2184 kJ/d in

clinical trials. Groups were diet only (C), diet plus endurance exercise (EE),

diet plus weight training (WT), or diet plus endurance exercise and weight

training (EEWT). Changes in body weight, percent fat, fat weight, and fat-free

mass were not different between groups. Declines in resting metabolic rate (RMR)

were approximately 7% to approximately 12% of baseline values with no

differences among groups. A significant increase in work capacity (approximately

16%) was shown for EEWT. Strength index showed declines of approximately 6% for

C and EE and gains of approximately 3% and approximately 10% for EEWT and WT,

respectively. These clinical trials did not show advantages of any exercise

regimen over diet alone for weight loss, body-composition changes, or declines

in RMR. Improvements in work capacity were limited and strength improved in

groups that participated in strength training.

---



Am J Clin Nutr 1994 May;59(5):1088-92



Does the amount of endurance exercise in combination with weight training and a

very-low-energy diet affect resting metabolic rate and body composition?



Whatley JE, Gillespie WJ, Honig J, Walsh MJ, Blackburn AL, Blackburn GL.



Center for the Study of Nutrition and Metabolism, New England Deaconess

Hospital, Boston.



Effects of large (LA; 400 min/wk) and moderate (MA; 200 min/wk) amounts of

endurance exercise in combination with weight training (3 d/wk) were compared

with the effects of no exercise (C) in 23 obese females after a 12-wk, 3360-kJ/d

very-low-energy diet (VLED). The LA group lost 6.5 kg more weight, mainly as fat

(6.4 kg), than the C group (P < 0.05). No measurable differences were found

among groups for decreases in resting metabolic rate (-729 to -1233 kJ/d; NS) or

fat-free mass (-2.9 to -3.9 kg; NS). No improvements in aerobic capacity were

achieved with the addition of exercise to a VLED (-0.079 to -0.037 L/min; NS).

Strength indexes were improved (+16 to +5 kg; P < 0.05) or maintained with

exercise (-3 kg; NS) whereas a loss (-9.3 kg; P < 0.05) or maintenance (+4.5 kg;

NS) was found for VLED alone. Large amounts of endurance exercise in combination

with weight training added to a VLED appear to improve weight and fat loss

compared with a VLED alone.
 
Vielen Dank Euch allen!

Hi!



danke, das war alles sehr

aufschlußreich. Ich werde

mich also überwinden, die

Waage nicht mehr so zu

beachten (und zur

Verlaufskontrolle dann das

Omron-Gerät verwenden).



Herzlichen Dank!

Marc (der jetzt sofort

trainieren geht ;-)
 
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