Weight Training Without Weights Please Help!!

[Shenandoah]

Thanks

jpfitness ........

Nice to see that you are a Toshiro fan, too..............*Instant Respect!*

I chose that picture to represent my program because, one, I am a great fan of Toshiro Mifune's, and two, because that stance of his depicted in that photo exudes strength, assurance. and control, and three, becuase it has heavy oriental vibes.

And thank you for the compliment on my illustrations. They're actually self portraits. No, actually, my wife took pictures of me in those poses, and I traced each one. At the time, I didn't want to put up any pics of myself. In fact I feel a bit uneasy about the ones I have recently put up there. I'm really not that great an artist. On a lot of occasions the pen would slip and I'd end up taking 12" off my waist and ripping my abdomen.

But enough of this. Back to the subject at hand:

It would be great if you guys would simply go through all of the arm exercises, doing them exactly the way I precribe them, and then see if you don't feel that your arms have had a workout. It won't kill you............sissies!

Then you'd have valid grounds to come back at me with your slings and arrows.

ManofKent refuses to do this because my program hasn't been sanctioned by the Atlanta Center for Disease Control.

 

[Shenandoah]

You realize of course that your observation is exactly the reaction I am concerned about. They use information which is presented irresponsibly, and you react by taking the bait. Open ANY fitness magazine and you will see hundreds of supplement ads hoping that you will make the same connection... Oh, that guy looks fit. That supplement obviously works so I'm going to buy it. Or, in this case it is more like this: That guy is built like a brick ****house. That program must really work. I hope you can see that this is faulty logic. There are many factors that you are not considering, which we have discussed ad nauseum in this thread.

Whoa! You're siting supplements, we're talking workout programs. This is a case known as Applus Orangus Camparisus

Now, if I were to come across John and Free at the beach and ask them how they developed those great physiques, which are at least comparable to mine, and they tell me they workout using a combination of bodyweight and self-resistance, I'm supposed to go "Aha! Bait! I know what your trying to do, here! You're trying to convince me that your fantastic physiques were accomplished by working out using a combination of bodyweight and self-resistance! I know quackery when I see it!!"

 

[jpfitness]

Whoa! You're siting supplements, we're talking workout programs. This is a case known as Applus Orangus Camparisus

Funny!

Now, if I were to come across John and Free at the beach and ask them how they developed those great physiques, which are at least comparable to mine, and they tell me they workout using a combination of bodyweight and self-resistance, I'm supposed to go "Aha! Bait! I know what your trying to do, here! You're trying to convince me that your fantastic physiques were accomplished by working out using a combination of bodyweight and self-resistance! I know quackery when I see it!!"

The biggest error I see people making in the gym is leaping to the conclusion that if someone has a great physique then they know what they're doing or that whatever they are doing would be good them. Most often neither is the case. Those people look like they do in spite of themselves. Follow a horse home and you will find horse parents.

One of my former workout partners had one of the best physiques I have ever seen in terms of balance and leanness. If you were to take his advice for cutting you would transform into a large bag of blubber! His idea of eating lean was switching from McDonald's to Captain D's.

A responsible response would be this.

Q: JP, what did you do to achieve that phsyique?

A: I do very low intensity full body circuits about twice a week, and I mountain bike once or twice a week and chase three active children around every day. One thing to consider though is that I have been an athlete my entire life and I have pretty good genetics, so you may not get the same results if you were to do the same workout. What we need to do is sit down and chat about your goals, your history with exercise and injuries, and look at your medical history to ascertain the best possible program for helping you achieve your goals.

 

[Yochanan]

Conventional weightlifting versus other methods

When I was about 30, I was a pile of bones with 13" arms. I weighed about 130 lbs, and got interesting in bulking up by going to a gym. Well, it worked. I went through the traditional workout routine, doing the standard 3 sets of 10 for standard exercises. After about a year, I got up to 165 lbs and 14.5" arms. I went no further.

When I moved to another country, I sold all of my weights, all 800 lbs of them (1994). Since then, I've only used bodyweight, and as of late, isometrics. I now have 16" arms and weigh 175 lbs. I was at 190 lbs for a while, but that was because I was packing a big belly, put on by store bought foodstuffs. My wife now makes me bread using coconut oil, and I lost the belly. If you look at my before and after pictures, you can see that my training using bodyweight exercises and isometrics surpasses my pumping iron days. I am 32 in the before picture, and 55 in the after picture.

Yochanan

 

[jpfitness]

When I was about 30, I was a pile of bones with 13" arms. I weighed about 130 lbs, and got interesting in bulking up by going to a gym. Well, it worked. I went through the traditional workout routine, doing the standard 3 sets of 10 for standard exercises. After about a year, I got up to 165 lbs and 14.5" arms. I went no further.

When I moved to another country, I sold all of my weights, all 800 lbs of them (1994). Since then, I've only used bodyweight, and as of late, isometrics. I now have 16" arms and weigh 175 lbs. I was at 190 lbs for a while, but that was because I was packing a big belly, put on by store bought foodstuffs. My wife now makes me bread using coconut oil, and I lost the belly. If you look at my before and after pictures, you can see that my training using bodyweight exercises and isometrics surpasses my pumping iron days. I am 32 in the before picture, and 55 in the after picture.

Yochanan

Again, there are a lot of seperate factors that could have influenced that. Muscle maturity, change in nutrition, change in metabolism, a foundation that was well-established from years of weight training, etc. You made progress and it makes you happy and that is all that matters. To argue that you could have made better progress under a properly designed and guided weight lifting program is a moot point. Either way, does your personal success with a nontraditional method qualify you to advise others to use that same method?

Read my above post. Advising others or designing programs should be based on the individual's needs, not the advisor's. One size most certainly does NOT fit all.

 

[R.Lewis]

So far, everyone thats has had good results from SR has had experiance in weight training.

Just pointing it out.

 

[Shenandoah]

Great stuff, Yochanan !

Welcome to the Hulking Geezers SR Club!

So far, everyone thats has had good results from SR has had experiance in weight training.

Well, at least you're beginning to say that people can have "good results from SR".

Even jp has gone from,

self resistance is not going to build muscle by itself

to

A few people have used your methods and made progress, which I acknowledged earlier can happen.

Manmeister, So far, there have been two of us who have had prior weight lifting experience. This won't exactly constitute an in-depth statistical study.

Jp, you keep raising the "complexities" of all that is involved in a successful workout program - what are the individual's needs and goals, has he had a prior history of fatal heart attacks, was his mother a klyptomaniac, does he sleep on the right side or the left side of the bed. People keep coming on here telling you they've had tremendous success with SR exercise, and you keep throwing back that there are all these complex variables to consider, including psuedo science and shifty marketing techniques. In the end, a curl is still a curl, a squat is still squat, a press is still a press, and anyone who wants to build muscle will be doing the basic exercises. It ain't rocket science.

And now, for the fourth time, I am issuing the "Zen Challenge". Why won't you take me up on it?

 

[R.Lewis]

Well, at least you're beginning to say that people can have "good results from SR".

DOWT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Shenandoah]

fo-pa

DOWT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

MY SITE​

I'm getting the impression that people are breezing through my site and picking out select quotes to make points with. Have any of you actually read the home page in its entirety? For example, early on in this discussion, jp accused me of not including the fact that I had extensive prior weight-lifting experience, when in fact I clearly state that on my home page (this is not meant to be a dig at jp, as we are great friends now, but I'm just making a point).

And the Manmeister from Kent (also a man after my own heart) scoffed at my ab exercises because I didn't include basic crunches, when in fact I say at the top of the exercises, "The exercises described in the muscle group categories were selected or created to be performed anywhere at any time, such as in an office setting. For additional exercises, see the link."

In fact, both the Home page and the "Additional Exercises and Routines" page are meant to go hand-in-hand with each other. The "Additional Exercises and Routines" is where I have the bodyweight exercises, and if you were to scroll down, you would see recommendations for various routines ranging from the full-blown workout, which includes bodyweight exercises, on through to the "Custom" and "Cruiser" routines which allows people to develop at their own pace.

 

[jpfitness]

Jp, you keep raising the "complexities" of all that is involved in a successful workout program - what are the individual's needs and goals, has he had a prior history of fatal heart attacks, was his mother a klyptomaniac, does he sleep on the right side or the left side of the bed. People keep coming on here telling you they've had tremendous success with SR exercise, and you keep throwing back that there are all these complex variables to consider, including psuedo science and shifty marketing techniques. In the end, a curl is still a curl, a squat is still squat, a press is still a press, and anyone who wants to build muscle will be doing the basic exercises. It ain't rocket science.

And now, for the fourth time, I am issuing the "Zen Challenge". Why won't you take me up on it?

Something that I would like to point out is that "buildling some serious muscle" and "making progress" are not synonomous, so you didn't catch me contradicting myself. I acknowledged that there are practical applications for SR, but progress can me measured by a wide variety of means.

First you can have an improvement of motor skills. Second, to an untrained person, anything will be an improvement over laying on a couch. That doesn't mean that SR is superior to other methods of training. As I have quoted from one of my favorite trainers, Alwyn Cosgrove, "everything works, nothing works forever." I can acknowledge that people can make progress using SR, but that doesn't mean that it is optimal, which is the point I have been trying to get at from the beginning.

It may even surprise you to learn that I have written a workout that is mostly SR. I may even have posted it over here, but I'm not sure. It was a workout that I wrote for men's health some 10 years ago. I will look for it.

And I also respectfully disagree that a SR curl is the same at a dumbbell curl (not that I am even in favor of doing curls most of the time. And a SR squat or hindu squat or DVR squat will NEVER replace squatting with a loaded bar on your back. They are not the same. They effect the motor units in very different ways, and the fact that you are not aware of this is my concern, especially with you doling out advice to newbies from a presumed position of authority.

I may have missed it earlier and am too lazy to go back through this thread and find it, but what is your "zen challenge" you speak of?

 

[Yochanan]

Although other exercises make for good aerobics, nothing beats SR for brute strength. It is THE best way to gain strength. Just go down to the zoo and watch the "brutes" there, such as the apes and lions. They are not pumping any iron, but can easily put down anyone who messes with them, Mr. Olympia or not. And how do you suppose they maintain their muscles?

JP - Why in the world do you say that leg presses are bad for you?

Yochanan

 

[jpfitness]

First, it's a completely nonfunctional movement. What real life action do you do in which your back is anchored and you push out with your feet? Second, according to Stuart McGill (in his book, Low Back Disorders), the exerices puts your back in jeapordy the instant your hips leave the pad, which they inevitably do.

I would never have a heart patient do them as most people do a "valsalva maneuvre" when they do (forced exhalation against a closed glottis), which spikes BP to dangerous levels.

It is a false indicator of strength. You can load them with ridiculous amounts of weight, but you sure couldn't squat that much.

It has a place in Schuler's hall of fame of hated exercises because of the above reasons.

I much prefer squat, lunge, deadlift, overhead squat or lunge, split squat, front squat (fried shrimp, boiled shrimp, shrimp etoufee.... [for any Forrest Gump fans paying attention to this thread]).

 

[Shenandoah]

Great Apes

Yochanan.........

I appreciate your coming on here and taking my side and lending testimonial to the effectiveness of SR, and I congratulate you on your great physique.

But I want to point out something to you in your last post before jp nails you.

This is another case of Applus Orangus Camparisus.

Many animals of the world are endowed by nature with great strength as a means of survival. Great apes are given the strength needed to climb trees hand over hand and to tear large stalks out of the ground. Of course, their strength is developed and increased over a life time of climbing trees hand over hand and tearing large stalks out of the ground. Lions, when not sleeping most of the day, are often stretching and straining. They do this instinctively. Nature gave them this need to stretch and strain as a means of developing their strength. They don't wake up and go, "ok, time to exercise."

It's true that we and the animals are all made of blood and muscle, and we all respond to muscle-developing stimuli, but to compare entirely different species doesn't make much of a point. A man, no matter how many trees he may climb hand over hand or tear large stalks out of the ground, or stretches and strains, or pumps iron 'til he's blue in the face will ever come close to the great strength of a Silver Back Gorrila.

Respectfully,

Shen

 

[DeX]

I'm going to admit right now, that I DID NOT read all the threads to this because there is just too much "conditional" type information... I'm just going to throw in my 2 cents... I think that everyone is right and every one is wrong... because exercise is based on the improvement of the individual and their goal, not what has worked for one person... because each person is designed differently, each person is going to react to exercise differently...

On top of that, there are different definitions/ideas of what "strength" is... Static strength, Static strength-endurance, Dynamic strength, Dynamic strength-endurance, etc... With that in mind, if you've never done, lets say a lunge before, and a month or two later you can do jumping lunges, well then you have gotten "stronger" than you were before... Or if you were doing 100 pound leg press (since jp loves them oh so much ), and then a month or two later, you are now at 200 pounds, well you got "stronger"...

As an example with the whole isometrics

In regards to isometric and concentric muscle contractions, it is true that by forcing your muscle or muscles to hold a position for a certain length of time, your body will begin to recruit and activate more motor units in order to maintain the contraction. However, you should keep in mind that isometric contractions are only capable of increasing muscle strength at the specific joint angles worked. There is no corresponding increase at other joint angles. Remember that isometric contractions are stabilizing contractions, meaning they are used for strength rather than movement.(taken from college notes)

So yes you'll be stronger, but if you're an athlete and need to move, probably not the best situation...

But without getting into too much detail, I think you guys/girls are thinking too 'cookie cutter' and need to focus on the individual rather than what the text book says, or so and so say, because in the end, all that matters is if the person achieved their goals, weither it's doing Self Resistance or Weight Resistance... Try somethign out for awhile, if it doesn't work for them, change it up... if it works, then you know what to go from...

 

[Shenandoah]

further

That doesn't mean that SR is superior to other methods of training. …..I can acknowledge that people can make progress using SR, but that doesn't mean that it is optimal

I agree with you and I have stated so in this thread. I have never touted SR as being superior to anything, only that it is an effective means of exercise, and through my experience, much more effective than I would have imagined it to be.

It may even surprise you to learn that I have written a workout that is mostly SR. I may even have posted it over here, but I'm not sure. It was a workout that I wrote for men's health some 10 years ago. I will look for it.

I THINK I’M GONNA FREAKING FAINT!!

And I also respectfully disagree that a SR curl is the same at a dumbbell curl (not that I am even in favor of doing curls most of the time. And a SR squat or hindu squat or DVR squat will NEVER replace squatting with a loaded bar on your back. They are not the same. They effect the motor units in very different ways, and the fact that you are not aware of this is my concern, ….

I was speaking of curls, squats, and presses in general terms. I know that a dumbbell curl is not the same as an SR curl.

….especially with you doling out advice to newbies from a presumed position of authority.

I don’t think my telling people that performing pushups followed by select SR triceps exercises is going to cause anyone irreparable damage or lifelong mental anguish. It may, in fact, instill in them inner peace and tranquility, and a oneness with the Cosmos.

 

[jpfitness]

I'm going to admit right now, that I DID NOT read all the threads to this because there is just too much "conditional" type information... I'm just going to throw in my 2 cents... I think that everyone is right and every one is wrong... because exercise is based on the improvement of the individual and their goal, not what has worked for one person... because each person is designed differently, each person is going to react to exercise differently...

On top of that, there are different definitions/ideas of what "strength" is... Static strength, Static strength-endurance, Dynamic strength, Dynamic strength-endurance, etc... With that in mind, if you've never done, lets say a lunge before, and a month or two later you can do jumping lunges, well then you have gotten "stronger" than you were before... Or if you were doing 100 pound leg press (since jp loves them oh so much ), and then a month or two later, you are now at 200 pounds, well you got "stronger"...

As an example with the whole isometrics So yes you'll be stronger, but if you're an athlete and need to move, probably not the best situation...

But without getting into too much detail, I think you guys/girls are thinking too 'cookie cutter' and need to focus on the individual rather than what the text book says, or so and so say, because in the end, all that matters is if the person achieved their goals, weither it's doing Self Resistance or Weight Resistance... Try somethign out for awhile, if it doesn't work for them, change it up... if it works, then you know what to go from...

Dex,
I know you acknowledge that you haven't read the entire thread, but I think it would help you to go back and read it. I say this particularly because there is nothing "cookie cutter" about my recommendations for an approach to weight training. I think you would realize this if you had already read it.

 

[jpfitness]

I don’t think my telling people that performing pushups followed by select SR triceps exercises is going to cause anyone irreparable damage or lifelong mental anguish. It may, in fact, instill in them inner peace and tranquility, and a oneness with the Cosmos.

Okay, I guess it won't. May not be the optimal routine, but I suppose it won't hurt anyone. To me, doing something that I consider to be no specific to one's goals or optimal is a waste of time and energy. It is better than nothing though.

 

[jpfitness]

For Shen

You will never believe what I found! Looks like your site got a reference in one of the posts as well. This is an old topic (from 2003). I've since completely changed my views on both training and stretching. The workout is okay, but I probably would totally change the stretching that I recommend in that article. Anyway, enjoy!

 

[Workman]

Shen's Zen Challenge

"It would be great if you guys would simply go through all of the arm exercises, doing them exactly the way I precribe them, and then see if you don't feel that your arms have had a workout. It won't kill you............sissies!

Then you'd have valid grounds to come back at me with your slings and arrows.

ManofKent refuses to do this because my program hasn't been sanctioned by the Atlanta Center for Disease Control."

LOL!

 

[Shenandoah]

You will never believe what I found! Looks like your site got a reference in one of the posts as well. This is an old topic (from 2003). I've since completely changed my views on both training and stretching. The workout is okay, but I probably would totally change the stretching that I recommend in that article. Anyway, enjoy!

NOW I KNOW I'M GONNA FAINT!!!

Thanks for finding that for me (and the 2,000 others on this thread, as well). I'm going to read it later this evening.

You're a good man, Charlie Brown