squats and deadlifts

whats the best way to utilize these exercises? what muscle groups? if my schedule looks like this...

monday - chest, triceps

tuesday - abs, cardio

wednesday - shoulders, biceps

thursday - abs, cardio

friday - back, legs

...which days could i put them in? since they work more than one muscle group, and they work a muscle i had trained a couple days before, wouldnt that be overtraining?
 
It might make it easier to think of it in terms of movement patters:

Squat: quad dom
Deadlift: hip dom
Bench press: horiz push
Bent over row: horiz pull
Shoulder press: vert push
Pull-up: vert pull


That way it's modular. You can then split as you wish, according to push/pull or antagonisitics, but as always, split the squat and dead.
 
With that schedule, they'd go on Friday.

You have a few alternatives-
Do as Cynic suggested
Pair front squats and deadlifts together
Pair back squats and RDLs together
Work a max squat and dynamic deadlift or visa-versa
 
evolution said:
Pair front squats and deadlifts together
Pair back squats and RDLs together

Out of curiosity, why that arrangement? I can understand pairing chin-ups with pronated rows and pull-ups with supinated rows (so you get both external and internal rotation work), but why fronts with conventional DL and back squats with RDLs?
 
Cynic said:
Out of curiosity, why that arrangement? I can understand pairing chin-ups with pronated rows and pull-ups with supinated rows (so you get both external and internal rotation work), but why fronts with conventional DL and back squats with RDLs?

I think evo made that suggestion so as to not put a back squat and conventional dead (the two beasts) together on one day. It would be, and is killer to put them on one day.
 
AJP said:
I think evo made that suggestion so as to not put a back squat and conventional dead (the two beasts) together on one day. It would be, and is killer to put them on one day.

Yeah, I do the squats on my push day and deads on the pull day, but when I started with antogonistics, I still seperated them for that reason. Nevertheless, front squats are beasts too, if done right.
 
Cheeto said:
What about people that do full body routines 3 days a week, they often do squats & DLs together up to 3 times a week.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's rough if you do both of them hard.
 
i do both together squats at the start of the workout and deadlifts at the end of the workout.
it is hard but you get used to it:cool: :D
 
workoutclown said:
whats the best way to utilize these exercises? what muscle groups? if my schedule looks like this...

monday - chest, triceps

tuesday - abs, cardio

wednesday - shoulders, biceps

thursday - abs, cardio

friday - back, legs

...which days could i put them in? since they work more than one muscle group, and they work a muscle i had trained a couple days before, wouldnt that be overtraining?
i dont like three day splits but if i was doing this one i would put
back,biceps
legs,shoulders
 
Cynic said:
Out of curiosity, why that arrangement? I can understand pairing chin-ups with pronated rows and pull-ups with supinated rows (so you get both external and internal rotation work), but why fronts with conventional DL and back squats with RDLs?

A lot of trainees have problems with spinal fatiguing which leads to injuries when pairing heavy back squats and heavy deadlifts together. There is a lot less spinal compression with the front squat and less perchance to round out the back under a heavy load=less chance of injury. That is why I would pair front squats and the back fatiguing deadlift together.

The RDLs are an excellent posterior chain movement that has a low risk of injury. In hindsight, I'd prob pair up a unilateral leg movement after the squats and rotate the conventional deadlift and RDL in and out with each other.

However, if you want to play with something and have two leg days
Leg day A-
A)Squat:5X3@90% 1RM
B)deadlifts:3X5@70% 1RM (speed)
C)Bulgarian squats:3X12 each leg
D)abs

Leg day B-
A1)front squats:3Xnear failure on 10-12RM
--super set--
A2)zercher:3Xtill you can't go anymore
*You'll do the front squats 'til just about failure. Then drop the bar into the crook of the eblows and without stopping, grind out some zerchers. Try and shoot for another 5-6.
B)abs
 
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workoutclown said:
hello? buzz? i would like ur input please

Basically you'll get more benefit from working larger muscle groups than a day of biceps and shoulders.

Fullbody workouts, upper/lower, push/pull are good ways to split up your routine.
 
workoutclown said:
hello? buzz? i would like ur input please
as evolution said..
when you pick up a weight protein synthesis(muscle growth,repair) starts it last for 36 to 48hrs so if you train legs on monday then not untill the following monday they will grow for 2 days then go back to baseline for 5 days.
if you do fullbody m,w,f,you are keeping protein synthesis going all week.
so 1 bodypart a week 52 growth spurts a year.
fullbody 3 times a week 156 growth spurts a year.
any routine with progressive load will make you grow but why not take advantage of training more frequently.:D
 
from the HST site

Also read the Planning Your Training Frequency article.

The reason HST calls for more frequent training is because the acute anabolic effects of training, such as increased protein synthesis, muscle-specific IGF-1 expression, and other factors involved in modulation of short term protein synthesis, only last for 36-48 hours. There is also mounting evidence of a "summation" effect by exercising while levels of these signals and responses are elevated, as should be expected.

This does not mean that the structural repairs to the tissue have been completed. Research has demonstrated that you can train a muscle before it is fully recovered structurally and not inhibit its ability to continue to recover. So, HST uses this evidence and calls for repeated loading (training) every 48 hours or so to keep the anabolic activity of the muscle high, while trying to stay slightly ahead of the structural recovery curve by constantly increasing the load each workout. Staying ahead of the structural recovery curve is really key to elicit real growth in a person who has lifted for quite a while. Of course, injuries can develop over time if care isn't taken to take time to heal, and prepare the tendons for repeated heavy bouts of lifting (SD and 15s serve this purpose in HST).

"Recovery" can refer to several different things.

1) "Recovery" can refer to the structural repair process of fixing the microtrauma. The damaged proteins can takes several days to be repaired and all evidence of damage removed. Even at the end of seven days after significant muscle damage from eccentric muscle actions, you may still see some small fibers regenerating.

2) Strength - this can be acute recovery as in the necessary time to rest between sets. Or it can mean the days that it usually takes to regain baseline strength after muscle damaging exercise.

So the trick is to have the CNS "recover" just in time to hit the muscle again as the acute anabolic effects are wearing off. That way you can stay anabolic more of the time. Training once every 7 days will still allow you to grow, it just takes longer for the gains to accumulate. Training more frequently is more efficient if your goal is just to get bigger

To understand, you have to consider the total volume over time. A week is easiest to consider, so, over the course of a week, it is the total volume that is important. So 9 total sets for chest can be done in one workout or in several workouts. Both will stimulate growth. However, you will be anabolic more of the time if you can actually create that stimulus more often. In the case of HST, 3 times as often. There is a physiological benefit (acute anabolic effects of training) in doing 9 sets as 3 sets X 3 workouts, as opposed to 9 sets all at once - and then nothing for the next 7 days.
 
so doing 3 full body workouts a week is/can be better than hitting a body part once a week? what constitutes a full body workout, meaning what kind of workouts? any reliable websites u can recommend for me to research?
 
workoutclown said:
so doing 3 full body workouts a week is/can be better than hitting a body part once a week? what constitutes a full body workout, meaning what kind of workouts? any reliable websites u can recommend for me to research?

have you been training for a while or have you just started?



thats a good 3 day a week fullbody workout. if you want something else, they arent TOO hard to make, just remember, compound exercises! :p
 
i was looking through that page and it seems interesting. so those r what would be considered a fullbody work out? if one wanted to attempt that, would it be ok to do those same exercises every week as long as ur increasing weight incrementally?

training since feb of 2006 by the way
 
im assuming biceps and triceps are covered in those workouts as well? i've been doing that workout i posted earlier in the thread for a while now. would it be ok for me to start doing the full body?
 
i guess. you get biceps from rowing and triceps from pressing (bench and military press) those are the best ways of develouping the triceps and biceps, contrary to popular belif, personally, i almost never train isolating exercises for my bis and tris ;)
Read the assistance exersices aswell, there are biceps curls and stuff once a week :p

and yeah, you just go with that program until the gains stop comming, then you can tweak the set/reps a bit and try again, milk it for all its worth.

just read through it, theres alot of info about it there ;) just remember to learn the lifts propperly. have you been squatting and deadlifting before?
 
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