purposely going catabolic?

Wow...huge respect for Mreik, didn't know he was so talented!

FWIW, this is sorta how I see it (not a perfect analogy):

Imagine your body is like a truck. You have a gas tank, a nitrious-oxide tank and a trailer full of corn that has a machine that can slowly convert the corn into some form of ethanol (and it requires oxygen to do so and it's a slow process...but you have a large trailer and can carry a lot).

The Nitrious Oxide is your ATP/Creatine-Phosphate: explosive!
The Gas tank is your glycogen: powerful
The trailer of corn (FAT): slow-burning, but long-term potential

Your body does not have a fuel-selector switch, at any given moment you're burning/utilizing a combination of all three of these sources of energy. Depending on demand & situation, the mix can change to account for demand.

At night you're largely cruising slow and so your actually utilizing a lot of corn/fat to get the job done. When you're lifting heavy weights, your blowing a lot of nitrious and your cardio is sustained with a mix of 60-75% gas/glycoen and 25-40% fat.

The notion that we can consume such small portions that the energy (glucose) is utilized by the body and never stored as fat sounds like a great way to make sure we never add to fat and just burn it....but in reality, we are constantly exchanging into & out-of fat.

We can talk about how eating small portion "teaches" our bodies that food is plentiful and we don't need to store it....but I see it as theory. Everyone is different and it's amazing how each of us differ in how our bodies work. The one consistent thing is, in the end it's still CALORIES IN VS. CALORIES OUT.

I realize it falls into the category of "no duh"...but if you eat more then you "need", then it gets stored as fat. If you eat less, then you end-up with less calories/fat on your body.

I was taught that as far as performance, nutrient timing is important and can affect things....but in so far as weight-loss, the 'bigger picture' concept of how much you eat vs. how much you burn is pretty much the golden rule.

Either way I think it's good that we discuss this and I'm very much enjoying Mreik's dissertations!
 
Good thread guys.

The dude abides...
 
You do the calculation :p

All you need is the molecular mass of glucose, know how many liters of blood we have in our body (~5), and know that it takes 10mM (millimolar) to begin gluconeogenesis. oh and molar = moles/L

If no one else does it I'll do it later :p


hm, no idea. I don't know what a millmolar is. I use to kinda know when I was reading about keto and all.

Also, I thought gluconeogenesis is when protein is converted to glucose?
 
hm, no idea. I don't know what a millmolar is. I use to kinda know when I was reading about keto and all.

Also, I thought gluconeogenesis is when protein is converted to glucose?

Gluconeogenesis is when glucose is made from a non-glucose precursor.. now that you mention it, glycogen probably is a glucose precursor so I might have mislabeled that. I'll look it up ina bit and get back to you..

Good catch btw ;)
 
I'm really enjoying this thread! It's answering questions that I couldn't really put into words because I "so" don't understand the detail of the process.

Keep it coming, Mreik! And thanks!
 
Assuming 5L of blood, it should be at least 45g of carbs.. Remember that that's only enough to activate the enzyme as long as the concentration stays over 10mM, so you'd have to eat more to continually refuel.
 
Assuming 5L of blood, it should be at least 45g of carbs.. Remember that that's only enough to activate the enzyme as long as the concentration stays over 10mM, so you'd have to eat more to continually refuel.

interesting...

so let me make sure I understand..

so to start restoring glycogen through eating carbs we need to eat above and beyond 45g of carbs in a single meal?

Or did you mean just anything over 45g of carbs above and beyond what you need for the entire day?

I know the brain uses approximately 100 per day, so would that be something around 145g?


Also, what happens to the first 45g of carbs?

For example, post workout I usually get right around 45g of carbs... so that means none goes to restoring glycogen right? What happens to those 45g of carbs?
 
Also, what happens to the first 45g of carbs?

For example, post workout I usually get right around 45g of carbs... so that means none goes to restoring glycogen right? What happens to those 45g of carbs?

Some goes to glycogenesis, some to other functions, until the concentration of the necessary enzyme (to the synthesis of glycogen, that is), falls down the gradient again, at which point the remainder is used to feed the brain and do whatever else needs doing.

If you really want to be sure, you've got 2 options as far as I know: 1) massive re-feed (see: way more than 45g of carbs), 2) regular high carb intake.

During my huge Banff pig out, I was like BAM instant crazy pump, because I had something like 600g of carbs in one sitting. I'm sure you've noticed that effect, but not so much at only 45g.
 
This is a really interesting thread. Mreik rocks ;)

But that's not practical, so eat as many small meals as possible and keep your fats and carbs away from each other.

Actually this might have more to do with my Bachelor's degree in biochemistry, so don't 'fuk my science' too quick.

Hey Mreik, why would you want to keep fats and carbs away from each other? What's the basis for that? Are you saying that a person should only eat carbs with protein? I eat fat at every meal, regardless of what I'm eating. For example, if I'm having fruit (which is straight carbs), as a diabetic I know I shouldn't really do that, so I add 18% cream or whipping cream to the mixture to lower the GI. I'm still getting Xgms of carbs; but I might be able to get away with not having to inject insulin right away. With a normal person, wouldn't the fat lower the GI and there wouldn't be an insulin spike in reaction to the increased BG levels?

I have a BSc in Organic Chem. I'm certainly no dietician. I'm much better in a lab (mwahahahahaha) :)
 
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Since fat slows down diegestion, why shouldn't we seperate carbs and fat ? Wouldn't it better to have a slow-digesting carb instead of one that spikes your insulin?
 
Since fat slows down diegestion, why shouldn't we seperate carbs and fat ? Wouldn't it better to have a slow-digesting carb instead of one that spikes your insulin?

Not when you want your insulin levels to go up, as in rws's case (when your intent is to mobilize energy for storage), but I'll let mreik do the talking. Sometimes I forget I'm not actually in the conversation. XD

Edit: Insulin response is a fun subject, though. I eagerly anticipate.
 
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Personally, I have been successful eyeballing my calorie and nutrition content in a 24 hour period, and making the best adjustments (in meal frequency) that my life environment allows, with the end goal leaving a calorie deficit when the objective was fat loss.

Some people live very busy lives, and when they start studying how to lose weight, one of the things that is in the forefront is multiple meals per day. Some will be so in tune (or obsessed and/or overly concerned with, if you will) with "multiple meals" that they think that if they do not get their multiple meals per day, it will some how throw their fat loss off track, even if they are in their personally calculated deficit--when its simply not the case.

If multiple meals are suddenly removed (due to life experience), a healthy persons fat loss isn't going to magically crumble and fall to pieces---as if fat loss "hinges" on frequency meals (and the calories in the meal) per day.

Fat loss DOES NOT hinge upon or depend upon nor require multiple meals per day.And, it is as simple as that.

I am not going to get all stressed out, if I can't eat multiple times. Because if life throws me a wrench in the fire, all I have to do (with the time I have to eat) is create a calorie deficit (and if appropriate, manipulate a nutrient)--at the end of the 24 hour day, and this is all that is friggggggggen required.

Multiple meals are NOT required, but some sort of deficit is, in a personal "trend", and in a 24 hour period.

There has been many questions about this very thing on the forum. And, for a "healthy person", to even suggest that eating one large meal (say over 1,600c, and maintaining 24 hour calorie deficit) versus spreading this same calorie amount over say 6 meals, will some how make fat loss dysfunctional--is a bunch of crap. I am not suggesting to eat 1600c, this was just used as an example.

Is this optimal? Of course not (in terms of dealing with strengths and weaknesses). I am speaking "only" in terms of fat loss (nothing else added in).

It isn't going to matter (assuming a healthy person), if the calories consumed in a 24 hour period came in the form of 10 meals or from one meal, if their is a deficit (especially at the beginning of a weight loss) one is going to lose tissue.

I personally experimented with this frequency of meals, and speaking for myself, in the last two years, I learned one thing about my body "during the bulk of my tissue loss":

It doesn't matter how much I eat as long as I am in a deficit in a 24 hour period (when fat accumulation is high), I will lose weight, and lose it easily. It simply did not matter whether I ate one meal or 20 as long as a deficit was induced in a 24 hour period.

I can sit down and eat 1200 calories in one sitting, and have one other meal (say 600 calories), and if my MT line is calculated at 2400, I will lose weight. Anyone who has read my posts on what I did to lose fat tissue, should know I used multiple meals, calorie shifting, and other manipulations during my goal path. However, there were times my environment changed and prevented "normal" functioning, and I had to revert to logic and "BASIC MECHANICS" to get me through, and multiple meals just weren't an option. So, if one benefit in the equation is removed, you pull from education to maintain your goal path.

I didn’t store any fat eating large meals in one sitting, because my "trend" was a history of calorie deficits. Therefore, the theory of eating large meals in one sitting and it getting stored (at least with me) is full of garbage. Bah! Working with deficits is the answer and doing your best with what life throws your way.

I have lost weight when life has thrown a few curve balls and I could only get a couple of meals per day. Out of curiosity, there were times I purposely at large meals (and dealt with the hunger pains, that multiple meals can reduce), for entire month, and then compared results to the previous month (in fat loss terms), and the results were nearly the same.

Multiple meals are "over rated" in the sense of fat loss, not in the sense of the benefits one could bring through education by "appropriate manipulations" toward one's goal. In other words, fat loss can continue when you don’t have multiple meals, and fat loss (and other benefits) can be "tweaked" through correct nutrient manipulations within multiple meals, but it doesn’t just "fall apart" if multiple meals are missing from the equation, IMO.

We live in an imperfect world, and eating frequent meals just cannot happen sometimes…….and one NEEDS TO KNOW that if they cannot eat frequent meals……there goal isn't going to mysteriously fall apart.

I have eaten carbs before bed (as much as 60 grams) without a problem during the bulk of my weight loss. I understand some can be carb sensitive, and may not work for everyone. However, speaking for me, I could eat carbs before bed (and do basically nothing but burn "sleeping calories" for the next 8 hours). Carbs can sometimes get a bad rap and can be misunderstood, I agree. Carbs can play a major role (positively) in one weight training and dieting to lose fat tissue. Additionally, they can play a powerful role when "manipulated".

I have eaten fructose (from fruits) before bed during the bulk of my weight loss without any problem. And, fructose gets a bad rap as well, sometimes.

It wasn't until I got to the point where my BF was low, and my body seemed to like its current weight, that it started to fight my efforts for additional fat loss--then this became a different story altogether. Not in meal frequency (necessarily)…but more in the nutrient and calorie manipulation sense of the equation.

When I was at home in so called normal mode, I would calorie shift (meaning calories deficits and MT Line were NEVER the same), eat frequently, and even have pre and post workout meals.

However…….there were times this sequence had to be broken with life's responsibilities--and sometimes for long periods.

I didn’t fret, I knew how my body responded and likewise would apply education to my circumstances the "best I could". If I couldn't train, nor have frequent meals, then I kept the very thing that would keep me on my goal path: the diet.

"I kept running deficits regardless of the frequent of meals or the calorie content of those meals", because THIS is the bottom trend line when all the smoke clears and all the blah, blah, blah, ends.

And, this has proven to work.

While I know multiple meals have their benefits, I also know it isn't "the glue" that keeps fat loss smoken' along the track.

I remember when I was in Atlanta last year, and due to the scheduling of the seminar, I was only getting two meals per day, and the seminar was for 6 days. I had to improvise my training and diet plan by adjusting it to my environment and the hotel facility's training room (and what they had available to use). I had to get my calories and nutrition in and maintain my deficit.

What was I going to think? "Oh, boy, I am f@cked now, if I eat 1900 calories in two meals, I am eating too much in one sitting, and most it will be stored in the face of a deficit in 24 hours?"

No, I wasn’t, because this is a bunch of bull-sh@t.

First, I new that this week was going to be a full course "shift" from the norm from what my body was "used to" which is a good thing), second, I knew the 8 to 10 hours without food (as I wasn’t eating the "crap snacks" they put out no matter how hungry I got), I was burning calories, and third, I knew I was running a deficit in carbs and calories even before eating the second large meal (post AM breakfast). How does this work, lets see.

I eat 900c in the am for breakfast, knowing I would get another chance to eat in the evening. This is only TWO MEALS.

I am "sitting" in the seminar for 8 to 10 hours. And, its approximated that a person my age and height can burn "about" 120 calories per hour sitting at a PC, and since this activity is close in "comparison" I used this to calculate how many calories I would burn, and this is approximately 960 calories at 8 hours (and 1200 for 10 hours). UH! The 900c in the am doesn’t look so darn large, now does it. When In fact I would have probably already eaten 900c or more prior to 6PM in multiple meals if I was at home. I consumed the same, but instead of multiple meals its in one meal.

I then eat another meal at 900c, at about 6PM. I allow a digestion period of 2 hours. I then train for an hour and 15 minutes (cardio, and a modified training routine with what is available to use at the hotel). It is now 9:15 PM in the evening. I then go to bed at 10PM, and then wake up at 6pm (about 8 hours calorie burning sleep, post workout).

Do the math. Two meals, a deficit, and still on track with what life presented me. Meal frequency is over rated. Eating too much in one sitting "can be" "over stated" as a negative. I am NOT dismissing the obvious benefits of meal frequency (do I really need to go into this?), but its not the GLUE that make all things work, but applying education to the environment your in, is.


Best wishes,


Chillen
 
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The benefits of protein timing are shown study after study, and if you're eating protein, you're eating a meal. I personally would never eat less than 3 meals a day if I could, would I eat 2 if that's all I had time for? Sure. But in your post chillen you said it yourself "I am not going to get all stressed out, if I can't eat multiple times.", so you obviously know the benefits of meal freq and you do it when you can. It's like if someone can only get 4 hours of sleep, they're still going to sleep and get those full 4 hours but knowing it would be better to get more. To be honest your post sounds contradicting/argumentative, but I'm not sure why, because no one has said that anyone's goals rest solely on that and that their goals will 'mysteriously fall apart'.
 
Since fat slows down diegestion, why shouldn't we seperate carbs and fat ? Wouldn't it better to have a slow-digesting carb instead of one that spikes your insulin?

That's exactly what I'm thinking ... insulin spikes tell your body to store the carbs as fat as opposed to converting them into glucose/glycogen. At least that's what I learned.

Biochemically speaking, Mreik is correct. Everything he has said is 100% correct, no doubt about it. I learned that stuff in University, too. What Mreik is saying is what is supposed to happen in the body, and usually does. But there are always exceptions. I'm one of them.

Phate89, when you say your diet works for you, I believe you. You know your body better than anybody else and how it reacts to what you put into it. But you still might want to try the 4-6 meals a day thing. If you look this good right now ... well, you know what I'm saying ;)
 
interesting...

so let me make sure I understand..

so to start restoring glycogen through eating carbs we need to eat above and beyond 45g of carbs in a single meal?

Or did you mean just anything over 45g of carbs above and beyond what you need for the entire day?

I know the brain uses approximately 100 per day, so would that be something around 145g?


Also, what happens to the first 45g of carbs?

For example, post workout I usually get right around 45g of carbs... so that means none goes to restoring glycogen right? What happens to those 45g of carbs?

Remember that you constant have glucose in your blood, depending on what you're doing and what you've eaten so far. Also remember that 10mM is only the activation concentration of the enzyme that makes hepatic glycogen (according to a biochemistry book, I'll look up the author/date), and that 5L is an estimation. And the 45g of carbs was derived from those numbers, and is an estimate (although IMO sounds very reasonable, maybe a little high due to the 10mM which is probably more like 6-9mM). So to begin hepatic glyconeogenesis you would need ~45g (more like 30g) of carbs dissolved in your 5L of blood to begin glyconeogenesis. The brain does use 75-100g a day, but that is spread throughout the entire day so it just needs a constant feed (and will use your glycogen stores if you don't eat enough carbs).

As for PWO, I would try to get 60-80g of carbs depending on your entire day, and calorie intake. But if you're cutting, you've got to remember that your glycogen stores shouldn't be full, so it's an entirely different strategy.
 
Keeping fats and carbs away from each other leaves high insulin levels away from fats. High insulin leaves you more likely to store any nutrient, protein or fat. Which is why (one reason) you have carbs with your protein for PWO. But low(er) insulin levels while digesting fat leaves the body more likely to perform beta-oxidation.
 
Since fat slows down diegestion, why shouldn't we seperate carbs and fat ? Wouldn't it better to have a slow-digesting carb instead of one that spikes your insulin?

You should, that's why I'm saying.

It would be better to have no carbs with fat. But if you had to eat some, lower GI/II carbs would be ideal.
 
Not when you want your insulin levels to go up, as in rws's case (when your intent is to mobilize energy for storage), but I'll let mreik do the talking. Sometimes I forget I'm not actually in the conversation. XD

Edit: Insulin response is a fun subject, though. I eagerly anticipate.

I fondly remember my days of insulin response, bouncing off the walls on a sugar high driving my parents to drink and leave me to my own devices :D

My gram used to say I looked like a flea on a hot griddle ...

I'm diabetic, so I'm in total control of my insulin response. But I'd much rather have a functioning pancreas ;)
 
I'm diabetic, so I'm in total control of my insulin response. But I'd much rather have a functioning pancreas ;)

Pancreata and a predetermined insulin response are overrated ;)
 
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