Isolation Vs Compound AND Weight Loss

[smartygoldenfis]

Hi, I am M/20 yrs/72 Kg (158 Lbs)
I have been to gym for the last 3 months and i lost weight from an inital 77 Kgs to 72 Kgs..a reduction of 5 kgs or 11 Lbs.
My gym schedule usually involved 15-20 minutes jogging and then exercises for specific body parts. Like biceps one day, triceps other and so on. I do 4-5 exercises and 3 sets of 12-15 reps each. I also take a protein supplement. it says it has 84% protein.
Please note that Push Ups, Dead lifts, Chin Up, Squats, Bench, Row are already included in my schedule + isolation exercises

My aim is to gain some muscle and lose my extra fab. And i think i should start taking my waist size as a measure of fat loss instead of my weight. Its 34''.
____________________________________________
PART I
Now, i read this article By Steve on this forum

http://weight-loss.fitness.com/weig...ise/32836-conceptual-side-weight-lifting.html

and it says this method of doing one part at a time is really bad, and its sinusoidal waveform shows it all.
So am i doing it wrong. Should i avoid all Isolation exercises? And is it wrong to do "one body part each day"?
How can a body part be trained if i don't do 5 different exercises. I searched the web, i could not find more than 8 exercises. 8 for all parts? Less!
I just fail to understand how concentrated working on one muscle may be inferior to working on a group of muscles working together?
Arent the compound ones too less in number?

Also, Steve said that Overload is necessary. Assume that i am able to do
5 Kgs hammer easily. Then all weights more than 5 are overload. If i take like 7.5, i am not able to complete more than 8 reps. So should i consider it an overload. Whats an exact criteria for overload? how many reps should i be able to complete in a overload?

____________________________________________
PART II
As i said, both weight-loss and muscle gaining is in my agenda.
I have this query that what is better, jogging for 30 minutes, vs running for 15? And what about taking breaks? Are they good or not?
Which takes more calories, running on treadmill or in park [considering speed and time in both cases equal of course]

Also, as Steve said Overload, it must be applicable to running too? If i run 4 kms comfortably today in 1 hour than in like 1 month should i increase it to 5 kms gradually? Is fat loss also stalled if i stall growth in length of running?

I would highly appreciate if members of this forums could answer my queries belonging to both sections.

PS: believe me or not, i thought like 4 days to frame this question.

 

[Cord the Seeker]

Well, if you read Steve's post that you linked to, you pretty much have your answers.

If your primary goal is fat loss, there isn't much reason to do isolation exercises or splits. Focus on the compound moves, and full-body workouts. You say you already do those, so that's fine.

The thing is, the most important element in fat loss is diet. What are you eating?
Also bear in mind that for the most part, muscle gain and fat loss are contradictory goals.
Fat loss requires a caloric deficit.
Muscle gain requires a caloric surplus (there are exceptions, like with very obese people and with newcomers to resistance training).
So you should really focus on one or the other. If you want to lose fat, stay in a caloric deficit and keep lifting. Your strength will improve, and you will retain the muscle mass you already have.
Incidentally, why are you taking the protein supplement? I know some people around here do, but I don't see the point myself if you can just eat normal foods with protein in them. It's pretty easy to get enough protein in your diet without protein powders, unless you are bodybuilding.

Going back to your lifting questions:
Compound lifts are more effective overall because you are working multiple muscle groups. More muscles worked equals more calories burned. Its more efficient. Also, it is a lot closer to how your body actually works if it has to move something heavy.

I don't understand what you mean when you say "how can a body part be trained if I don't do 5 different exercises?"
Your body will be trained by doing work, and by adding progressive overload.


I'm no expert or trainer, but here is how I handle overload:
When I can finish my last set easily, it is time to up the weight. So if you can finish that last set of 15 without overt difficulty, it is time to up the weight. And yes, you probably won't be able to do all 3 sets of 15 at that weight. That's the point - you are working up to that, and getting stronger as a result.
If we didn't need overload to get stronger, we would all become supermen just by walking around and hoisting our coffee mugs, right?

You don't need to do 5 separate exercise to work each body part - the genius of compound lifts is that you are working multiple muscle groups at once. Do 5 different compound lifts and you've worked out your whole body, many parts multiple times.

As far as the cardio goes - yes, overload applies to that too, to some degree. Yes, your body does become more efficient at any repetitive task over time, so as that 4km run becomes easier you are probably burning a few less calories. But what you are really doing is improving your level of fitness. The 4km run is easier because your overall health has improved. Improved efficiency is fairly minor in the grand scheme of things. And now I've just realised that I have drifted off topic a bit.
Back on track - yes, if your 4km run is easy, ramp it up so that it is a hard workout again. Maybe increase it to 5km, maybe work on increasing speed.

I won't speculate on whether treadmills or open road burns more calories. I would never run or walk on a treadmill if I had the option to get out in the open air. It's just so much more pleasant.
The only time I use a treadmill is for a quick warm-up before my resistance workouts.

I can't emphasis enough that if you are trying to lose fat, your diet is going to be the most critical part of your routine.
Don't worry about whether you are getting maximum caloric burn out of your runs or lifts - get your diet in order and the weight will come off. Exercise will get you fit and help you maintain your muscle mass. Diet is what loses the weight, primarily.

 

[KaraCooks]

I'll echo what Cord said.

Read Steve's posts again and really think about them. The answers to all your questions are there.

How can a body part be trained if i don't do 5 different exercises. I searched the web, i could not find more than 8 exercises. 8 for all parts? Less!
I just fail to understand how concentrated working on one muscle may be inferior to working on a group of muscles working together?

How does your body work in real life? Think about it. Do you do things in real life with one muscle at a time? No, of course not. You walk (which takes something like 26 muscles). You squat or bend over. You lift things - not just with one muscle, but with your back, arms, legs, shoulders, and even abdomen. There is NOTHING that you do on a daily basis that requires the use of just one muscle.

So why do people think that training one muscle at a time is the way to go?

The best and most effective way to maintain muscle and build strength are to use your muscles in your workouts in the same way you use them in real life - in groups. Squatting, lunging, deadlifting, pressing, doing pushups, doing dips ... all these things work multiple muscles at the same time ... AND they work the muscles together, they way they're supposed to move, rather than isolating them and possibly building an imbalance that will cause you to be injured.

And that's another thing - if you work one muscle in isolation and you don't work all the muscles that connect to that muscle, you will build an imbalance and you can injure yourself.

For many reasons like the above, isolation work is the least effective and least useful form of weight lifting, not to mention being potentially harmful if not done with proper knowledge and balance with relation to other muscles.

Whats an exact criteria for overload? how many reps should i be able to complete in a overload?

The idea criteria is that you should be working at around 70% of your 1RM. 1RM = 1 rep max. That means you should find out the amount of weight for any exercise that you can lift only once before you fail, and then do your workouts at about 70% of that weight.

So for example, if you can squat once with 95lbs on your shoulders (the bar plus 50 add'l pounds) and then can't do it again, your proper workout weight would be 66 lbs (or the bar plus an additional 20 lbs).

A lot of people don't know their 1RM, but they use an estimate by figuring if they struggle to complete their 3rd set of reps, they're close to overload. That's the version I use the most, although I do know my 1RM for squats and benches.

I have this query that what is better, jogging for 30 minutes, vs running for 15? nd what about taking breaks? Are they good or not?
Which takes more calories, running on treadmill or in park [considering speed and time in both cases equal of course]

These is not questions that can be answered because they're not based on a valid premise and there are too many variables. What do you consider a jog? What do you consider a run? What is your heart rate while doing each? What is the condition of the terrain you're running in outside? Etc. Simply not possible to answer.

For weight loss, cardio is less effective than lifting weights (compound exercises, as mentioned above). Cardio has other benefits, so I don't say don't do it ... but for weight loss, it's primary benefit is more calories burned. Even then, straight cardio doesn't burn THAT many calories - medium intensity cardio of any kind probably burns around 500 calories an hour.

"Overload" as such doesn't apply to cardio. It's a different concept.

The important thing about cardio is your heart rate and your level of exertion. In order to get maximum effect from your cardio workouts, you need to get your heart rate elevated. If you can do that with a brisk walk, then that's what you need to do. If you need to full out run, then that's what you need to do. As you get into better shape, you'll have to move more to get your heart rate up. After a while you won't be able to achieve a significant level of exertion while walking and you'll have to move to a jog or a run. It's not about distance - it's about time and heart rate.

 

[Steve]

I haven't read the replies above but since you PM'd me and I'm short on time, I figured I'd post *something*.

That said, based on Cord's and Kara's posting history... I'm quite sure you've been given solid advice.

and it says this method of doing one part at a time is really bad, and its sinusoidal waveform shows it all.

I'm pretty sure I never said "really bad" in the article.

Should i avoid all Isolation exercises?

Not necessarily. It's just that isolation shouldn't be emphasized AT ALL while dieting. Throwing some in at the end isn't a big deal but having entire days dedicated to arms for instance is silly.

And is it wrong to do "one body part each day"?

Wrong?

No.

Suboptimally?

Yes.

Yes for reasons I specifically outlined in the article regarding adaptation.

How can a body part be trained if i don't do 5 different exercises.

Why would you assume you need to do 5 different exercises to "train" a muscle?

Number of exercises done per muscle group has extremely little to do with anything of importance.

I searched the web, i could not find more than 8 exercises. 8 for all parts? Less!

Huh?

I just fail to understand how concentrated working on one muscle may be inferior to working on a group of muscles working together?
Arent the compound ones too less in number?

I'm having a very hard time understanding what you're asking, unfortunately.

When you're dieting, you're not going to be adding appreciable muscle mass. Also, recovery ability is down. Knowing this, the best bet is to be economical with your training. By that, I mean use the movements that require the use of the largest number of muscles and joints.

Why?

Well why spend time pounding away on each individual muscle group with isolation crap when a) you're not going to be growing and the idea is the get the most "bang for your buck" in the gym since recovery is reduced while dieting?

Also, Steve said that Overload is necessary. Assume that i am able to do
5 Kgs hammer easily. Then all weights more than 5 are overload.

Not necessarily.

If i take like 7.5, i am not able to complete more than 8 reps. So should i consider it an overload. Whats an exact criteria for overload? how many reps should i be able to complete in a overload?

Overload isn't based on rep range. You can overload using 1 rep and you could overload using 20 reps.

Overload is simply a matter of placing a stress on the body it's unaccustomed to. Simple as that. Doing so causes some form of adaptation or response, which is what we're interested in.

As i said, both weight-loss and muscle gaining is in my agenda.

And I want a million dollars and I don't want to work.

I have this query that what is better, jogging for 30 minutes, vs running for 15? And what about taking breaks? Are they good or not?
Which takes more calories, running on treadmill or in park [considering speed and time in both cases equal of course]

You're splitting hairs.

Also, as Steve said Overload, it must be applicable to running too? If i run 4 kms comfortably today in 1 hour than in like 1 month should i increase it to 5 kms gradually? Is fat loss also stalled if i stall growth in length of running?

Yes, no.

Yes, to ellicit further positive adaptation of the cardiorespiratory system you need to progressively overload it.

No, you won't stop burning calories if you don't progressively overload it.

 

[smartygoldenfis]

fisrt i will extend my thanks to all Stave, KaraCooks and Cord the seeker for sucha speedy reply.
So i have got that i need to concentrate on Compund exercises since i am trying to lose fat [and gain some muscle].

For weight loss, cardio is less effective than lifting weights (compound exercises, as mentioned above). Cardio has other benefits, so I don't say don't do it ... but for weight loss, it's primary benefit is more calories burned. Even then, straight cardio doesn't burn THAT many calories - medium intensity cardio of any kind probably burns around 500 calories an hour.

that means compound is the Key!

So from Monday onwards i will make my routine of Compunds not isolations
[ i will leave Triceps on Mon, Bicpes on Tue, Thigh on Wed etc].

According to steave's post:

Diet will rule above all else for losing fat. Weight training applied as I laid out will preserve muscle mass. Limited cardio will help skew where calories are coming from and going to (in terms of fat and muscle) in a somewhat positive way. The rest is all up to diet and your genetic tendencies towards fat and muscle losses.

So with all the above in mind (from my previous post and this one) let's look at ONE WAY of setting up a weight lifting routine to match your goals. Keep in mind, which should be obvious by now, that this is merely one slice of a much larger pie... the pie being the total, optimal approach to losing fat and keeping/adding muscle.

In essence, you could get away with doing something as simple as:

Squat - 3-5 sets x 5-10 reps
Bench - 3-5 sets x 5-10 reps
Row - 3-5 sets x 5-10 reps

You could do that 2-3 times per week and be golden. It's plain. It's simple. And when applied using the above... it'll work in terms of increasing strength and preserving muscle.

Granted, many would get bored with it pretty fast. That's why I'll typically add some variety. This could be accomplished by merely changing up the exercises each day you train. You could do something like an A program and a B program and alternate the two. You could extend that to an A, B, and C program if you'd like.

For instance, using the A/B template you could do:

Template A

Squat - 3-5 sets x 5-10 reps
Bench - 3-5 sets x 5-10 reps
Row - 3-5 sets x 5-10 reps

Template B

Deadlift - 3-5 sets x 5-10 reps
Overhead Press - 3-5 sets x 5-10 reps
Chinup - 3-5 sets x 5-10 reps

And that could work well for a long while.

Personally, I like to vary the intensity and volume over the course of a week though, which the above is not doing. I find my clients like this better too, and to be honest, it's probably a good idea to avoid stagnation and work a the muscle using a variety of loading parameters.

With that in mind, I might do something like:

Template A

Squat - 3-5 sets of 4-6 reps
Bench - 3-5 sets of 4-6 reps
Row - 3-5 sets of 4-6 reps

Template B

Deadlift - 2-4 sets of 8-12 reps
Overhead Press - 2-4 sets of 8-12 reps
Chinup - 2-4 sets of 8-12 reps

So that would be the core of the "program" for the time being. I'm going through this to *sort of* show you the steps that go through my mind when I'm thinking of this, assuming you're interested in that, lol.

Once the core is established you can add in accessory stuff which might make it look something like:

Template A

5-min jog on treadmill
Foam rolling and dynamic mobility stuff
Squat - 3-5 sets of 4-6 reps
Bench - 3-5 sets of 4-6 reps
Row - 3-5 sets of 4-6 reps
Single Leg DB Romanian Deadlifts - 2 sets of 8-12 reps
Bicep Curls - 2 sets of 10-12
Planks - 2-3 sets of 30-60 seconds

Template B

5-min jog on treadmill
Foam rolling and dynamic mobility stuff
Deadlift - 2-4 sets of 8-12 reps
Overhead Press - 2-4 sets of 8-12 reps
Chinup - 2-4 sets of 8-12 reps
Single Leg Squats - 2 sets of 8-12 reps
Tricep Extensions - 2 sets of 10-12 reps
Pallof Presses - 2-3 sets of 10-15 reps

Are you starting to see the rationale here?

To fit this into a weekly format, you could do something like:

Monday: Template A
Tuesday: Metabolic Work
Wednesday: Template B
Thursday: Metabolic Work
Friday: Template A
Saturday: Metabolic Work
Sunday: Off

The following week everything would be the same, however the resistance training would be BAB instead of ABA.

And this is only a suggestion - again not written in stone at all! Y

should i start more or less the same routine??
And can i do it more than twice a week?
How and where can i get a program made? Any free non-commercial solutions?


I am immensely interested.

 

[Cord the Seeker]

Anything in the same nature as Steve's basic A+B templates would be fine.

Don't get hung up on the diea that there has to be some specific 'programme' that will give superior results.

Just set up a series of lifts that will work all your major muscle groups, and you'll be fine. You don't need a pro to design a programme for you, for the most part, although advice from the pros will probably be helpful - IF you get the right kind of pro. If some pro tells you that you "have to isolate and burn those biceps, man, and if you don't also do HIIT you're wasting your time" - walk away, I say.

My basic routine is one I set up myself, and is almost identical to Steve's A+B.

Edit: as far as frequency goes, just make sure you take a day off in between heavy resistance training sessions, to allow your tissue to repair and rest and such.

One piece of advice I will give is to make sure you include squats. They are probably the single most useful and rewarding (in results) lift you can do.

Get in the gym. Have some fun. Concentrate on compound lifts.

 

[KaraCooks]

I'll second everything Cord said. And what Steve said too.

 

[smartygoldenfis]

thankssss...so i googled and got this workout...its a 4 day workout instead of 3x by Steve...i just thot may be consult the experts first!
Monday - Workout A (Main Muscles Worked - Pecs, Triceps):

Main Body Part Exercise Sets Reps Rest
Pecs Incline Barbell Bench Press 4 15, 8, 8, 6 60-90 sec
Pecs Flat Barbell Bench Press 4 15, 8, 8, 6 60-90 sec
Pecs Dip 4 15, 8, 8, 6 60-90 sec
Pecs Barbell Pullover 4 15, 8, 8, 6 60-90 sec



Tuesday - Workout B (Main Muscles Worked - Quads, Hamstrings):

Main Body Part Exercise Sets Reps Rest
Quads Barbell Squats 4 15, 8, 8, 6 60-90 sec
Quads Front Barbell Squat 4 15, 8, 8, 6 60-90 sec
Quads Sumo Deadlift 4 15, 8, 8, 6 60-90 sec
Hamstrings Barbell Stiff-Legged Deadlift 4 15, 8, 8, 6 60-90 sec



Wednesday - Cardio:

Run or jump rope for 30 to 60 minutes.

Thursday - Workout C (Main Muscles Worked - Delts, Traps):

Main Body Part Exercise Sets Reps Rest
Delts Barbell Military Press 4 15, 8, 8, 6 60-90 sec
Delts Barbell Upright Row 4 15, 8, 8, 6 60-90 sec
Delts Barbell Clean and Press 4 15, 8, 8, 6 60-90 sec



Friday - Workout D (Main Muscles Worked - Lats, Lower Back):

Main Body Part Exercise Sets Reps Rest
Lats Pull-up 4 15, 8, 8, 6 60-90 sec
Lats Bent-Over Barbell Row 4 15, 8, 8, 6 60-90 sec
Lower Back Barbell Deadlift 4 15, 8, 8, 6 60-90 sec

Sat: Cardio
Sun: off

 

[Steve]

I would not approve of that workout.

 

[KaraCooks]

I am not sure why you're trying to make this more difficult than it needs to be.

Go back to Steve's basic template in the thread that was referenced above. He said:

In essence, you could get away with doing something as simple as:

Squat - 3-5 sets x 5-10 reps
Bench - 3-5 sets x 5-10 reps
Row - 3-5 sets x 5-10 reps

You could do that 2-3 times per week and be golden. It's plain. It's simple. And when applied using the above... it'll work in terms of increasing strength and preserving muscle.

Granted, many would get bored with it pretty fast. That's why I'll typically add some variety. This could be accomplished by merely changing up the exercises each day you train. You could do something like an A program and a B program and alternate the two. You could extend that to an A, B, and C program if you'd like.

For instance, using the A/B template you could do:

Template A

Squat - 3-5 sets x 5-10 reps
Bench - 3-5 sets x 5-10 reps
Row - 3-5 sets x 5-10 reps

Template B

Deadlift - 3-5 sets x 5-10 reps
Overhead Press - 3-5 sets x 5-10 reps
Chinup - 3-5 sets x 5-10 reps

And that could work well for a long while.

Personally, I like to vary the intensity and volume over the course of a week though, which the above is not doing. I find my clients like this better too, and to be honest, it's probably a good idea to avoid stagnation and work a the muscle using a variety of loading parameters.

With that in mind, I might do something like:

Template A

Squat - 3-5 sets of 4-6 reps
Bench - 3-5 sets of 4-6 reps
Row - 3-5 sets of 4-6 reps

Template B

Deadlift - 2-4 sets of 8-12 reps
Overhead Press - 2-4 sets of 8-12 reps
Chinup - 2-4 sets of 8-12 reps

So that would be the core of the "program" for the time being. I'm going through this to *sort of* show you the steps that go through my mind when I'm thinking of this, assuming you're interested in that, lol.

Once the core is established you can add in accessory stuff which might make it look something like:

Template A

5-min jog on treadmill
Foam rolling and dynamic mobility stuff
Squat - 3-5 sets of 4-6 reps
Bench - 3-5 sets of 4-6 reps
Row - 3-5 sets of 4-6 reps
Single Leg DB Romanian Deadlifts - 2 sets of 8-12 reps
Bicep Curls - 2 sets of 10-12
Planks - 2-3 sets of 30-60 seconds

Template B

5-min jog on treadmill
Foam rolling and dynamic mobility stuff
Deadlift - 2-4 sets of 8-12 reps
Overhead Press - 2-4 sets of 8-12 reps
Chinup - 2-4 sets of 8-12 reps
Single Leg Squats - 2 sets of 8-12 reps
Tricep Extensions - 2 sets of 10-12 reps
Pallof Presses - 2-3 sets of 10-15 reps

Are you starting to see the rationale here?

To fit this into a weekly format, you could do something like:

Monday: Template A
Tuesday: Metabolic Work
Wednesday: Template B
Thursday: Metabolic Work
Friday: Template A
Saturday: Metabolic Work
Sunday: Off

The following week everything would be the same, however the resistance training would be BAB instead of ABA.

 

[Steve]

I'll echo Kara. It seems like you're looking for validation for what you think you should be doing. If that's what you're looking for... you're asking the wrong people.

Just speaking frankly.

 

[smartygoldenfis]

I am not sure why you're trying to make this more difficult than it needs to be.

Go back to Steve's basic template in the thread that was referenced above. He said:

I'll echo Kara. It seems like you're looking for validation for what you think you should be doing. If that's what you're looking for... you're asking the wrong people.

Just speaking frankly.

Thanks both...yes i am looking for validation...but what i was about to do. Now since you have do not recommend it...i wont do it...as simple as that. As i said..i just wanted to get a simple piece of advice from experts out there..my trainers at gym just ask to do bicep today, triceps tomorrow etc...thats why i ask you people, for some genuine advice.
Lets go start with Steve's routine then!

 

[Steve]

Sounds like a good idea. I hear that Steve guy might know a thing or two.

 

[Jynus]

Sounds like a good idea. I hear that Steve guy might know a thing or two.

ya your 4 day looked a little weak.

If you're hell bent on a 4 day a week resistance training template. Google Westside for skinny bastards 3. It's perfect imo. Prob one of the best templates period for the general population to get into shape. Your 3 day split very closely resembles Starting strength. I would also recommend googling it to read the huge article about the program. Lots of amazing general information to be found there about training.

 

[kobusdv]

Enough has been said already, so I'll try not to bore you. I'm in a similar situation and here is what works for me.

Monday, Wednesday, Friday (compound free weights)
Squat
Bench Press
One-Arm Dumbbell Rows
Alternating Dumbbell Shoulder Press
Concentration Curls
Overhead Tricep Extensions
Crunches

Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday (cardio)
High intensity cardio 30 to 40 minutes

The best advice is to find a program that works and then stick to it. You will see the results.

 

[Steve]

ya your 4 day looked a little weak.

If you're hell bent on a 4 day a week resistance training template. Google Westside for skinny bastards 3. It's perfect imo. Prob one of the best templates period for the general population to get into shape. Your 3 day split very closely resembles Starting strength. I would also recommend googling it to read the huge article about the program. Lots of amazing general information to be found there about training.

My four day was something I threw out there years ago. Wasn't meant to be a sticky, meaning I didn't make it a sticky. I agree it's weak. Should get around to changing it... but that's not likely to happen. Frankly much of what's in the stickies from years ago could probably use updating.

That said, since it seems you're talking to me as you're directly responding to me... I've read and used (on myself and clients) iterations of WSSB and SS stuff.

And frankly, SS stuff is nothing new at all, which I'm hoping you know.

But you're right, both are great set ups. People, unfortunately still screw them up thinking solely about the program instead of the fundamentals. Which is why I'm typically hesitant to throw out links to programs without reviewing the fundamentals.

If you want to "critique" my ideas as they pertain to strength training (at least some of them) review current stuff from me which would be found in the conceptual side of weight lifting sticky.

 

[Jynus]

i wasn't actually. I trust any split you put up dude to be good. I was responding to the OP's newest 4day split. My bad for any confusion. I jut looked back. I think i hit quote instead of reply. *embarrassed*

 

[Steve]

Ahh, ok. My bad. My post still stands... the 4 day split I posted years ago which someone made a sticky is weak.

And everyone should read the conceptual side of weight lifting sticky.

Thanks for the clarification and props!