Full body Vs Splits

[buzz]

I don't see how my question is answered. Who cares what soreness means? The most superficial and inhibiting aspect of soreness is that it hurts to exercise a sore muscle. Therefore I don't see how I could even do a 3x week FBW, physically.

So the trick is to have the CNS "recover" just in time to hit the muscle again as the acute anabolic effects are wearing off. That way you can stay anabolic more of the time. Training once every 7 days will still allow you to grow, it just takes longer for the gains to accumulate. Training more frequently is more efficient if your goal is just to get bigger

To understand, you have to consider the total volume over time. A week is easiest to consider, so, over the course of a week, it is the total volume that is important. So 9 total sets for chest can be done in one workout or in several workouts. Both will stimulate growth. However, you will be anabolic more of the time if you can actually create that stimulus more often. In the case of HST, 3 times as often. There is a physiological benefit (acute anabolic effects of training) in doing 9 sets as 3 sets X 3 workouts, as opposed to 9 sets all at once - and then nothing for the next 7 days.

 

[Karky]

3x10 for all of them except pullups, because I can't do 10. For those I do until failure (generally 3 for the first set and 2 for the remaining sets) for 4 sets. I usually end up doing less for the final sets of the bench press because I max out. Lots of the exercise advice I read says that the last rep of each set should be the last you are able to do, and therefore for 3x10 you should just barely be able to complete the last rep. But I find that if I choose a weight where I can do 10 for 3 sets, I can usually do 12 or 13 for the first set, and then only 10 for the last 2. If I choose a weight where I can only do 10 for the first set, I can only do 8-10 for the second set and 6-8 for the last set. Because there's all sorts of contradictory advice out there I've had to cobble together my routine out of what makes sense to me, although I don't know what to make of the constant soreness.

you could find a weight you can do 3x10, just because you CAN do more than 10 on the first set doesnt mean you have to. also, if you are training for strenght you should always have a bit left in you, 1 rep left in you or something like that after your last set.

And have you ever tried a propper 3 day a week FBW routine?
and Buzz, FBW is not only if you want to get bigger.

 

[buzz]

i do know that karky

 

[Karky]

good thing just wanted to make it clear

 

[MichaelA]

you could find a weight you can do 3x10, just because you CAN do more than 10 on the first set doesnt mean you have to. also, if you are training for strenght you should always have a bit left in you, 1 rep left in you or something like that after your last set.

And have you ever tried a propper 3 day a week FBW routine?
and Buzz, FBW is not only if you want to get bigger.

Heh, yeah, but then how many people/articles are saying that won't do you any good at all? You are saying one thing, yet there are plenty of vocal people on the other side saying if you aren't maxing every set you aren't even doing anything at all. I don't really know who to believe...

 

[MichaelA]

So the trick is to have the CNS "recover" just in time to hit the muscle again as the acute anabolic effects are wearing off. That way you can stay anabolic more of the time. Training once every 7 days will still allow you to grow, it just takes longer for the gains to accumulate. Training more frequently is more efficient if your goal is just to get bigger

To understand, you have to consider the total volume over time. A week is easiest to consider, so, over the course of a week, it is the total volume that is important. So 9 total sets for chest can be done in one workout or in several workouts. Both will stimulate growth. However, you will be anabolic more of the time if you can actually create that stimulus more often. In the case of HST, 3 times as often. There is a physiological benefit (acute anabolic effects of training) in doing 9 sets as 3 sets X 3 workouts, as opposed to 9 sets all at once - and then nothing for the next 7 days.

Yes, that's interesting information, but it doesn't really help me out with soreness.

Also, as far as the "logic" of FBW goes, I'm also skeptical. While man in his natural environment might use all of his muscles every day in the context of weight training, I would think a split is more logical. It makes more sense that natural man would spend most of his days walking around looking for food, most of which was close to the ground, and every once in a while encounter an obstacle that required intense muscle activity. For example, most of his time is spent looking for fruit and tubers, but once a week he usually sees a rabbit and sprints after it. Or once or twice a week he finds honey and has to climb a tree to get it. Or once or twice a week he has to fight to protect himself from an animal or man. Or once a month a large object falls on him and he has to push it off. I doubt things like that would be happening to him all the time, consistantly.

 

[holabuster]

Michael. About the soreness. With a FBW, you do less sets and reps, meaning you don't overtire your muscles. This means less soreness and a quicker recovery, while still stimulating your muscles to hypertrophy.

and michael. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!! Chasing rabbits?!?!?! hahahahahaha!!!

 

[MichaelA]

Michael. About the soreness. With a FBW, you do less sets and reps, meaning you don't overtire your muscles. This means less soreness and a quicker recovery, while still stimulating your muscles to hypertrophy.

and michael. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!! Chasing rabbits?!?!?! hahahahahaha!!!

Heh, in retrospect that was a bad example, just chose the first thing that came into my head. A boar might be a better example, although catching just about any animal would have been a team effort.

 

[Karky]

Heh, yeah, but then how many people/articles are saying that won't do you any good at all? You are saying one thing, yet there are plenty of vocal people on the other side saying if you aren't maxing every set you aren't even doing anything at all. I don't really know who to believe...

Bodybuilders go to faliure. last set is suppose to be heavy, but not faliure if you train for strenght.

 

[Karky]

Yes, that's interesting information, but it doesn't really help me out with soreness.

Also, as far as the "logic" of FBW goes, I'm also skeptical. While man in his natural environment might use all of his muscles every day in the context of weight training, I would think a split is more logical. It makes more sense that natural man would spend most of his days walking around looking for food, most of which was close to the ground, and every once in a while encounter an obstacle that required intense muscle activity. For example, most of his time is spent looking for fruit and tubers, but once a week he usually sees a rabbit and sprints after it. Or once or twice a week he finds honey and has to climb a tree to get it. Or once or twice a week he has to fight to protect himself from an animal or man. Or once a month a large object falls on him and he has to push it off. I doubt things like that would be happening to him all the time, consistantly.

but randomly, you never know.
1. he would have to squat down to take a **** about every day.

and he would have to use his entire body in one day, lets say he ran after some animals with a spear, throwing it at them, carrying the animal home again after that.
and now the 10000 dollar question: What muscle does that train?
point is, we cant really know wtf they did in one day, but god knows he would have to use all his muscles in one day for something, wheater it was climping a tree or fighting extra terrestials. But that really is beside the point. I still dont get how theres more logic to a split than to a FBW, its just different ways of doing it, either pack all the volume for chest on one day, or divide it over 3 days, which has benifits you would know about if you read the entire thread.

 

[MichaelA]

but randomly, you never know.
1. he would have to squat down to take a **** about every day.

and he would have to use his entire body in one day, lets say he ran after some animals with a spear, throwing it at them, carrying the animal home again after that.
and now the 10000 dollar question: What muscle does that train?

What I meant by "in the context of weight training" is a situation in which a man is exerting considerably more effort to contract a muscle than in his every-day activities. For example, the contrast between a deadlift (lifting a huge rock) or a hindu squat (the aforementioned bodily need), a bench press (pressing a fallen branch off of your chest) and a pushup (getting up off the ground after tripping or lying down).

Also I suppose in his natural environment even many of the exercises which are considered "compound" in general weight training are still isolated compared to how you would use your body in such situations. To press a branch off of your chest you'd probably go all out, utilizing not only your triceps and pecs but your abs and shoulders as well, or when pulling yourself over the edge of a cliff you'd not only use your biceps and lats but your legs to scramble up.

 

[Karky]

What I meant by "in the context of weight training" is a situation in which a man is exerting considerably more effort to contract a muscle than in his every-day activities. For example, the contrast between a deadlift (lifting a huge rock) or a hindu squat (the aforementioned bodily need), a bench press (pressing a fallen branch off of your chest) and a pushup (getting up off the ground after tripping or lying down).

Also I suppose in his natural environment even many of the exercises which are considered "compound" in general weight training are still isolated compared to how you would use your body in such situations. To press a branch off of your chest you'd probably go all out, utilizing not only your triceps and pecs but your abs and shoulders as well, or when pulling yourself over the edge of a cliff you'd not only use your biceps and lats but your legs to scramble up.

err, yeah i bet. which is all the muscles in the body, thanks for proving my point.
But we have gotten kinda offtopic here.

 

[MichaelA]

Bodybuilders go to faliure. last set is suppose to be heavy, but not faliure if you train for strenght.

I'll keep that in mind, yet even on this board most of the vocabulary is geared toward size, not strength, but the two aren't always mutually exclusive and it can be difficult to decipher which one is being discussed. Most of the posts on this board reference "bulking", "big", "gains", "surplus", etc. which seem most often to refer to size, without specifying whether these recommendations are for just size, just strength, or both.

 

[MichaelA]

err, yeah i bet. which is all the muscles in the body, thanks for proving my point.
But we have gotten kinda offtopic here.

I'm not trying to prove that point. There would be a big disparity even in those actions in total muscle contribution, and the point I'm really aiming for, I suppose, is that neither weight lifting routine (split or FBW) closely emulates the circumstances of a natural environment, and that trying to create workout "logic" by comparing the two isn't very useful.

 

[evolution]

Monday - Bench Press, Incline Bench Press, Dips, Ab work

Wednesday - Bent-Over Rows, Shrugs, Wide-Grip Overhand Pullups, Close-Grip Underhand Pullups, Ab work

Friday - Squats three times a month/Deadlifts once a month, Stiff-Leg Straight-Back Deadlifts, Standing Calf Raises, Military Press, Upright Rows, Ab Work

Here is your workout on a FBW split
M-bench press, bent-over row, squat, shrug, ab work
W-A1)inc bench, A2)pull ups alt chins, deadlift, abs
F-A1)Dips, A2)SLDL, B1)military press, B2)seated cable row, C1)ab work C2)calf raises

And I'd actually throw in the deads and squats first. I'd also alter setsXreps though the week.

Sure we refer to size but not for the neglect of strength. At least most of us on here look for strength gains along with size gains.

 

[Karky]

I'm not trying to prove that point. There would be a big disparity even in those actions in total muscle contribution, and the point I'm really aiming for, I suppose, is that neither weight lifting routine (split or FBW) closely emulates the circumstances of a natural environment, and that trying to create workout "logic" by comparing the two isn't very useful.

what im saying is just that by FBW you get used to using all your muscles under heavy stress the same day in a short period of time. which is what would be needed IRL. Im not saying the exersices are very alike IRL situationes.

 

[Okayieman2]

M-Chest/Triceps T-heavy cardio/legs W-shoulder/Back/biceps Th-heavy cardio Fri-off Sat-Chest/Triceps Sunday-off

I added the legs.

To karky-do you actually benefit much more from full body working (that's FBW right?) out in a day than spilt routine?

 

[Karky]

M-Chest/Triceps T-heavy cardio/legs W-shoulder/Back/biceps Th-heavy cardio Fri-off Sat-Chest/Triceps Sunday-off

I added the legs.

To karky-do you actually benefit much more from full body working (that's FBW right?) out in a day than spilt routine?

Its just my theory, that you learn your body to cope with the stress, the body does adapt after all. I did read something about it long ago, but i cant remember any detailes or anything, sorry.

 

[MichaelA]

See, now this is the kind of thing that drives me crazy. I've seen this guy's routines recommend here before (http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=508031). The very first day of his program recommends maxing out in a 5x5 routine. I know without a shadow of a doubt I'd be hurting for days after doing that, and with a FBW that would pretty much leave me in bed.

Edit: Fixed the link. The forum did some weird formatting of the parentheses that messed up the link with its "auto-url" feature.

 

[Karky]

link dident work that well. but 5x5 is a good way to do FBW. Ive done a 5x5 before and dident have much troubble.