Full body Vs Splits

MichaelA said:
See, now this is the kind of thing that drives me crazy. I've seen this guy's routines recommend here before (http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=508031). The very first day of his program recommends maxing out in a 5x5 routine. I know without a shadow of a doubt I'd be hurting for days after doing that, and with a FBW that would pretty much leave me in bed.

Edit: Fixed the link. The forum did some weird formatting of the parentheses that messed up the link with its "auto-url" feature.

You didn't read the article. The first day is 3 sets of 5 reps. Not 5 X 5.

And it is NOT maxing out at all. The 5 reps should be performed closer to a 7RM, if not more.

Keep in mind there is generally one upper push, upper pull, lower push, lower pull/hip dominant - per full body workout. Those are the guidelines here at least. And the workouts are in different rep schemes each time, it's not always 5 X 5.
 
Maxing out=pushing out that 1RM. If you have never experienced this, you should give it a go sometime. There's a world of difference between gritting your teeth because of the burn with trying to get that 12th rep in as opposed to pushing/pulling/etc something that you can only do 1 time and your CNS is working like crazy and your body is screaming that you can't nad it feels like forever before the weight locks out and....
 
AJP said:
You didn't read the article. The first day is 3 sets of 5 reps. Not 5 X 5.

And it is NOT maxing out at all. The 5 reps should be performed closer to a 7RM, if not more.

Keep in mind there is generally one upper push, upper pull, lower push, lower pull/hip dominant - per full body workout. Those are the guidelines here at least. And the workouts are in different rep schemes each time, it's not always 5 X 5.

Didn't read the article? That's a pretty lofty accusation. You're right, it's 3 sets, not 5, but that wasn't the most important bit to me, this was:

"Load: Choose a weight that forces you to near-failure for the last rep of the last set.*

*This is the recommended load for all workouts."
 
MichaelA said:
Didn't read the article? That's a pretty lofty accusation. You're right, it's 3 sets, not 5, but that wasn't the most important bit to me, this was:

"Load: Choose a weight that forces you to near-failure for the last rep of the last set.*

*This is the recommended load for all workouts."

I didn't mean to sound accusatory it came out wrong (or typed out) sorry about that. I don't see it as maxing out though. Going to "near failure" is leaving a couple in the can. So if you're doing 3 X 8, it'd be good to be working around your 10RM for example.

Maxing out is about the 1 RM...oh I just realized Evo said that.
 
michealA soreness will go away easier with a fbw than a split because you are training the specific sore muscle more often.
and as far as faliure is concerned for strength or hypertrophy it has been general knowledge for many years that faliure is not needed.
here is a quote from bryan haycock HST site

Further discussion on fatigue and its relation to a proper hypertrophic stimulus

The 1st set, as with the 2nd set, merely places a given amount of strain on the tissue. As long as you are supporting the weight, the stimulus is present.

You may have heard some discussion about fatiguing fibers becoming disassociated from the rest of the contracting fibers, and thus avoiding the strain. This is true in one sense, and false in another. As a fiber fatigues, it is true that it will stop contracting. When enough fibers fatigue, the tissue as a whole will no longer be able to move against the resistance and you have reached what we call “momentary muscle failure”. Some studies done using eccentric exercise have demonstrated that high resistance eccentric reps produce more microtrauma when done by a fresh muscle, when compared to eccentric reps done after pre-fatiguing the muscle. This would not be wholly unexpected given the above explanation about fatiguing fibers.

However, there is another issue involved that must be taken into account. No fiber is completely isolated from the rest of the tissue, even when it becomes fatigued. So even when one fiber becomes fatigued (sarcomeres by sarcomeres) that fiber will still experience passive stretch by virtue of being attached to adjacent and in-series fibers. So even if a fiber fatigues right away, if the set continues, that fiber will be stretched and strained with the rest of the tissue, the only difference being that the forces will be shifted from the contractile elements of the fiber to the outer structural elements of the fiber. As we know, both passive and active strain/stretch produce hypertrophy.

In short, fatigue is not a critical factor, although it obviously holds importance given the nature of “lifting” weights.

I think where more confusion comes in, is when people begin talking about "intensity". Intensity is generally associated with effort; the greater the effort required, the greater the intensity. This naturally leads to the idea that the last few reps, which require the most effort, are the most effective. If we are strength training, this is often true. However, when training for muscle growth, the fatigue generated by training to failure and beyond (e.g. forced reps) quickly interferes with our ability to train with sufficient frequency.
 
Training To Failure.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DIFFERENTIAL EFFECTS OF STRENGTH TRAINING LEADING TO FAILURE VERSUS NOT TO FAILURE ON HORMONAL RESPONSES, STRENGTH AND MUSCLE POWER GAINS.

J Appl Physiol. 2006 Jan 12;

Izquierdo M, Ibanez J, Gonzalez-Badillo JJ, Hakkinen K, Ratamess NA,
Kraemer WJ, French DN, Eslava J, Altadill A, Asiain X, Gorostiaga EM.

The purpose of this study was to examine the efficacy of 11 weeks of
resistance training to failure vs. non-failure, followed by an
identical 5- week peaking period of maximal strength and power
training for both groups as well as to examine the underlying
physiological changes in basal circulating anabolic/catabolic
hormones.

Forty-two physically-active men were matched and then randomly
assigned to either a training to failure (RF; n=14), non-failure
(NRF; n=15) or control groups (C;n=13). Muscular and power testing
and blood draws to determine basal hormonal concentrations were
conducted before the initiation of training (T0), after 6 wk of
training (T1), after 11 wk of training (T2), and after 16 wk of
training (T3). Both RF and NRF resulted in similar gains in 1RM bench
press (23% and 23%) and parallel squat (22% and 23%), muscle power
output of the arm (27% and 28%) and leg extensor muscles (26% and
29%) and maximal number of repetitions performed during parallel
squat (66% and 69%). RF group experienced larger gains in the maximal
number of repetitions performed during the bench press The peaking
phase (T2 to T3) followed after NRF resulted in larger gains in
muscle power output of the lower extremities, whereas after RF
resulted in larger gains in the maximal number of repetitions
performed during the bench press.

Strength training leading to RF resulted in reductions in resting
concentrations of IGF-1 and elevations in IGFBP-3, whereas NRF
resulted in reduced resting cortisol concentrations and an elevation
in resting serum total testosterone concentration. This investigation
demonstrated a potential beneficial stimulus of NRF for improving
strength and power, especially during the subsequent peaking training
period, whereas performing sets to failure resulted in greater gains
in local muscular endurance. Elevation in IGFBP-3 following
resistance training may have been compensatory to accommodate the
reduction in IGF-1 in order to preserve IGF availability.
 
Bump.. Why must there be a monogamous relationship? Split or Full-body?
The two are totally different things, with different benefits.

Be a workout slut.. do both!

..And Buzz, hate to rag on you bro, but:
buzz said:
michealA soreness will go away easier with a fbw than a split because you are training the specific sore muscle more often.
Dude.. you have no idea what you are talking about. If your muscle is sore, that means it is repairing. Working out sore muscles isn't good. I don't care how many articles you can google up written by roid heads saying it is okay. Explain to me without using articles.
 
Wow... This really Kicked off while I was away.

Now I think it would be really cool if every posted what there goals are, what they think is best (FBW or SBW) and what they acctually do. I just think it would be interesting to see if all the guys fighting for full body workouts actually do full body workouts.

I'll start.

Goal - Sports baised strength.
prefer - splits
type of training - Oly split, 6workouts in 10days
 
Goal-1.throwing performance 2.strength
Split preference:FBW
Setup:Tier training-1 Oly move or total body move, 1 pressing, 1 leg, 1 rowing paired with 1 RC move. 4-5 days throwing, 2-3 days lifting
 
Goal - Strong mother****er followed by looking good nekid.
Split preference: Fullbody or upper/lower.
Current - Break from injury but going back to hypertrophy training VIA fullbody training Monday. Going to hit 6 FB sessions a week using 4-8 excercises. AM/PM daily splits.
 
"Typically we see splits of chest, shoulders and triceps, back and biceps, and legs. Why don't we see splits like rhomboids and hip flexors, quadriceps and rotator cuff, sternocleidomastoid and pec minor? Because that wouldn't make bodybuilding "sense." But in my opinion, any split routine based on a random allocation of muscle groups to certain days of the week defies all logic." - Alwyn Cosgrove
 
malkore said:
yeah, sticky posts would be awesome.

but, we'd need a moderator for that, and Mreik is like THE ONLY mod I've ever seen here.

I tried to get the job, however I was told that another wasnt needed....:eek:
 
Timmy said:
"Typically we see splits of chest, shoulders and triceps, back and biceps, and legs. Why don't we see splits like rhomboids and hip flexors, quadriceps and rotator cuff, sternocleidomastoid and pec minor? Because that wouldn't make bodybuilding "sense." But in my opinion, any split routine based on a random allocation of muscle groups to certain days of the week defies all logic." - Alwyn Cosgrove

Alwyn pwns, knows his ****!
 
"But in my opinion, any split routine based on a random allocation of muscle groups to certain days of the week defies all logic."

Its hardly random. The muscle groups used in splits are allocated by muscles thats are closely linked to eachother in compound exercises, like...

pecs/delts
delts/ traps
lats/pecs
traps/spine erector
abs/obliques
legs/spine erector
 
Yet most people have volume that's way out of proportion - far more upper body work than lower body work. The only splits that make sense to me are push/pull or upper/lower. Even if I was to do something inspired by a quad/horizontal/glute/vertical split (by planes of motion), I'd have there be emphasis, effectively making it an upper/lower/upper/lower.
 
This has good arguments from both sides.

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=933431

What about the person that has no experience of working out or exercising, dont you think they should possibly do a split. This individual will need to build all aspects of strength from the ground up, mainly building stabilization. Ive always been a fan of splits but today started with full body.

Goal-Strength/Size
Preference-Split (but now trying FBW)
Type-Now FBW every 2 days with variance in exercises but same muscle groups and general movements
 
Timmy said:
Yet most people have volume that's way out of proportion - far more upper body work than lower body work

Well we are not talking about "most people", we are talking about what happens when FBWs or SBWs are done properly.


Timmy said:
The only splits that make sense to me are push/pull or upper/lower. Even if I was to do something inspired by a quad/horizontal/glute/vertical split (by planes of motion), I'd have there be emphasis, effectively making it an upper/lower/upper/lower.

Not alway so. I found my fastest ever gains came from This split workout...

workout A

Oly lifts
delts, traps, spine erector, and legs.

workout B

Pecs, lats, abs, obliques


I agree that most split workouts dont teach ppl how to use there whole body.
 
manofkent, i think what timmy really is saying is that the
chest bi
back tri
armz n amz
...
...

split doesnt make sence to him. to me, the split you mentioned above looks pretty ok, its a split where you use alot of your body on both workouts not only two muscle groups.
 
*shrugs* From a personal feeling, I don't like the idea of waiting so long between "bodyparts". Full-body workouts let me maintain some frequency, and the intensity I get from full-body workouts feels better than having an entire day dedicated to benching. (I prefer overhead presses, anyway.) It's just what comes naturally to me, though obviously the impulse for so many others is to kill your body until that "bodypart" can't function afterwards.
 
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