Full body Vs Splits

R

R.Lewis

1
As this has been in a few topics today I'd like to get this sorted.

I think we should come to an agreement on what is best for each type of goal so we are all giving the noobies the same advice.

I was under the impression that fullbody is good for fat loss, but it is a quick fix. The way I see it, its better to put on muscle with splits so that your matabolism speeds up.
By doing full body your forever fighting your metabolism.

Run to lose fat - lift to build muscle. Is that too simple?
 
"Run to lose fat - lift to build muscle. Is that too simple?"

I personally do think that would be a little too simple. Then people get the idea to loose more weight the should go run for as long as possible their first time out, kill themsleves, feel like crap the next day, and never want to work out again. I would do both no matter what the persons goal. the amnount of each would simply vary.

So really in answer to the question I think that it does not matter the goal for what way you workout(split vs full body) but more how commited you are to exercise.

If just starting I'd have some one go 2 or 3(start 2, don't be a hero) times a week full body w/ all the big compounds etc, and do the cardio that day.(Amount depending upon goal of cutting or bulking, etc) I say that because ya in an ideal world it would be great to have people come four or 6 days a week to the gym alternating cadrio and weights. But that kind of schedual will put most people off of physical activity early on so whats the point? They would still get great benefits from only 2 or 3 days a week.

Same thing with split workouts. If the person is more advanced and committed to going to the gym 4+ days a week then they are great. But, unlike most of the people on this board there aren't many people who want to give that kind of commitment to exercise.
 
why would full body be a quick fix. lots of strong people do fullbody. its already been scientificly proved that frequecy beats higher volume (this was mentioned in another thread about this same topic).
although fullbody is usually only 3 times a week, you get all your muscles worked 3 times a week, while with many splits you only get 1-2 times a week. the 60's are over.

the only problem with fullbody routines i see, is that some people spend 2 hours doing isolation for every bodypart with a volume of 100. higher frequency means less volume ofcource, and staying with compound exersices.

And, everyone is different, people respond different to different things.

Im sick of people bashing fullbody routines, i personally laugh everytime i see someone posting:
Tuesday - AbZ and armZ
:p
 
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I just started a full body routine after years of a split routine. I was skeptical of them I must admit, but now I think it's great. My entire body stays pumped constantly and I feel better.
But everyone is different and you can get used to the same old routines. I think everyone should try some variations to determine what works best for them. That being said they should also put a little time into researching what they are doing rather than just making up a routine. A little work really pays off!

It's so easy to judge something you don't understand, I know because I did.
 
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how is full body training 'fighting your metabolism'?

when noobs come in, if we put them on a push/pull/leg routine right away, they won't be able to move because of the severe amount of hypertrophy (to the extent of over training) that they incurred. then they won't like liftin because "it makes me feel like hell".

i don't think everyone should do full body workouts for their entire life. but face it, most people coming here for workout advice are new to it, and can't deal with tons of volume at once...so we lower the volume so it just barely achieves hypertrophy, so recovery is much faster...and instead we hit every muscle 3x a week.

you can bulk on 3x full body, you can cut on 3x full body, and you can maintain on 3x full body.

when I see someone who's been training a while, that's when I suggest push/pull/leg splits, or upper/lower splits.

I think the individual will know when they need to start doing 'chest days' and 'back days'...a couple years into their dedicated training.
 
Wow - some really good responces.

Malkore - I was saying that cos I feel that I cant build muscle using FBW (full body workouts) as fast as split training.

Klarky - frequency. I dont believe in using a 7day plan. Its not flexible enough. I do a 4week plan 2split. Doing fbw 3times a week is 12times in 4 weeks.
I will work each bodypart twice a week two for the weeks and 3times a week for the other two. So thats 10times in 4 weeks. and total of 20workouts in 4 weeks.

So, total times muscle worked in 4 week- fbw 12times a month
split 10times a month
Total workouts in 4weeks - fbw 12times
split 20times

Also I dont have the energy to do a fbw, when i tryed I wasnt putting everything into it at the end of the workout.
 
you cant say "total workouts" you must say "total times x muscle is worked" a split would obviously mean more workouts.

and you dont have to use a 7 day plan with anything, fullbody workouts can vary alot too. and yes, energy is an issue, thats where volume comes inn, and the importance of what order the exersices are inn.
and im not arguing against your way of doing it, since i dont know what that is. Im just saying propper fullbody routines are effective aswell as propper split routines
 
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Klarky - well I told you guys that the total times each muscle is worked in 4 weeks- fbw 12times a month and with splits it is 10times a month, so the diffrence is only 2.
So if your talking about frequency then it really isnt going to effect your results very much.

"and you dont have to use a 7 day plan with anything, fullbody workouts can vary alot too." - I was talking about frequency again. You cant do fullbody two days in a row, but you can do your split training two days in a row.

Im not trying to piss ppl off, I just cant see the logic behind fbw.
 
Kent, I'm not sure what you're asking. I think we've seen the 5X5 method work great for strength and hypertrophy *if calories are there to cause hypertrophy*

As far as cardio for weight loss and lifting for muscle gain...well, fat people run marathons all the time and they're still fat.

Let's take into overall volume. You have a trainee that has a chest and triceps day. So, they flat bench, incline db bench, and do some cable flyes for the chest and then run on and do a few movements for triceps. I can easily split those movements up over the course of the week or even an 8 day timeline and keep protein synthesis elevated.

Most powerlifters, strongmen, Highland throwers, Oly lifters, etc athletes will run a fullbody program or an upper/lower split. Even bodybuilders will do this through off season and then they move into more of an isolation split closer to competition time.

The other thing to take into consideration is the cumulative effect of fatigue. Just because you do back one day and then legs the next day does not ensure that the body is recovering because the body works as a whole and recovers as a whole. If you're out there working the legs hard and then the next day working your back...well, the body is still trying to recover. This is not to say we can't work on pushing our recovery system or work capacity but that's a different discussion.

For the trainee taht wants more frequency, an upper/lower split would work great as in
M-lower, T-upper, W-off, Th-lower, F-off, Sat-upper, Sun-off
or
M-pull, T-off, W-press, Th-off, F-pull, sat-off, Sun-press, Mon-off, repeat
or
M-pull, T-press, W-off, Th-legs, F-off, Sat-pull, Sun-press, Mon-off, repeat

Which I think is so much more superior than
M-chest/triceps, T-back/biceps, W-off, Th-legs, F-shoulders, Sat-off, Sun-off, repeat or what you'd typically see in a magazine setup.
 
evolution said:
Which I think is so much more superior than
M-chest/triceps, T-back/biceps, W-off, Th-legs, F-shoulders, Sat-off, Sun-off, repeat or what you'd typically see in a magazine setup.
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Okay how about this to bulk up and "redifned" the body for ripped off look?

M-Chest/Triceps T-heavy cardio W-shoulder/Back/biceps Th-heavy cardio Fri-off Sat-Chest/Triceps Sunday-off

What do you think of that one? (to anyone)
 
Okayieman2 said:
Okay how about this to bulk up and "redifned" the body for ripped off look?

M-Chest/Triceps T-heavy cardio W-shoulder/Back/biceps Th-heavy cardio Fri-off Sat-Chest/Triceps Sunday-off

What do you think of that one? (to anyone)
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Awful.

No leg exercises?? A routine without squats and deadlifts is no routine at all.

It's still a split (without legs).

If you're lifting three days, I would still go with full body, alternate between push and pull, or alternate between upper and lower.
 
manofkent said:
Klarky - well I told you guys that the total times each muscle is worked in 4 weeks- fbw 12times a month and with splits it is 10times a month, so the diffrence is only 2.
So if your talking about frequency then it really isnt going to effect your results very much.

"and you dont have to use a 7 day plan with anything, fullbody workouts can vary alot too." - I was talking about frequency again. You cant do fullbody two days in a row, but you can do your split training two days in a row.

Im not trying to piss ppl off, I just cant see the logic behind fbw.
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i dont get how the logic is so harder to understand behind the FBW than the split?

Evo:
"The other thing to take into consideration is the cumulative effect of fatigue. Just because you do back one day and then legs the next day does not ensure that the body is recovering because the body works as a whole and recovers as a whole. If you're out there working the legs hard and then the next day working your back...well, the body is still trying to recover. This is not to say we can't work on pushing our recovery system or work capacity but that's a different discussion."
Would the CNS play a role here? working out every day (or 6 days a week) could that have a negative effect on your CNS, i mean, you could loose energy, and just be very tiered?

And what really made me see the "logic" behind FBW was when a guy said "The body wasnt made to use its legs one day, back one day and chest one day, we run we jump, we lift, we crawl.. all in the same day IRL" the body was made to use all muscles at the same time, so i think FBW would be more functional, as you train your body for more realistic use. Imo.

and like Evo said, im yet to see an oly lifter do back and biceps (there might be someone who does it, but not likley many) it could be simply because the oly lifts are heck to fit in on splits like that, but bear in mind that oly lifters are among the strongest, most powerful people on this planet.
 
Karky said:
Would the CNS play a role here? working out every day (or 6 days a week) could that have a negative effect on your CNS, i mean, you could loose energy, and just be very tiered?
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It depends. There are so many factors for each individual. At the Olympic camps, the guys will train 5-6 days a week, 2-3 times a day. Keep in mind that their session might only be a 3-4 singles of the clean and 2 sets of 3 reps for front squat. But these guys are high caliber athletes.

Doing too much failure work and too much work at the 90%+ intensity can be very demanding on the CNS if pushed all the time. This is why you see a lot of work in the 70, 80, and 85%.

But yeah...too many trainees try to run a five or six day program with no rest and it's horrible for them.
 
i agree with everything karky said the problem with this site is people ask the same questions over and over,instead of doing a search:confused:
maybe some threads should be stickied.
for me i would rather do fullbody 3x a wk
than do a split 4 or 5 or 6 times a week that way you can either do cardio on non weight days save catabolism,or just rest.
here is some info from the HST site on frequency..:rolleyes: again:cool: :D

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also read the Planning Your Training Frequency article.

The reason HST calls for more frequent training is because the acute anabolic effects of training, such as increased protein synthesis, muscle-specific IGF-1 expression, and other factors involved in modulation of short term protein synthesis, only last for 36-48 hours. There is also mounting evidence of a "summation" effect by exercising while levels of these signals and responses are elevated, as should be expected.

This does not mean that the structural repairs to the tissue have been completed. Research has demonstrated that you can train a muscle before it is fully recovered structurally and not inhibit its ability to continue to recover. So, HST uses this evidence and calls for repeated loading (training) every 48 hours or so to keep the anabolic activity of the muscle high, while trying to stay slightly ahead of the structural recovery curve by constantly increasing the load each workout. Staying ahead of the structural recovery curve is really key to elicit real growth in a person who has lifted for quite a while. Of course, injuries can develop over time if care isn't taken to take time to heal, and prepare the tendons for repeated heavy bouts of lifting (SD and 15s serve this purpose in HST).

"Recovery" can refer to several different things.

1) "Recovery" can refer to the structural repair process of fixing the microtrauma. The damaged proteins can takes several days to be repaired and all evidence of damage removed. Even at the end of seven days after significant muscle damage from eccentric muscle actions, you may still see some small fibers regenerating.

2) Strength - this can be acute recovery as in the necessary time to rest between sets. Or it can mean the days that it usually takes to regain baseline strength after muscle damaging exercise.

So the trick is to have the CNS "recover" just in time to hit the muscle again as the acute anabolic effects are wearing off. That way you can stay anabolic more of the time. Training once every 7 days will still allow you to grow, it just takes longer for the gains to accumulate. Training more frequently is more efficient if your goal is just to get bigger

To understand, you have to consider the total volume over time. A week is easiest to consider, so, over the course of a week, it is the total volume that is important. So 9 total sets for chest can be done in one workout or in several workouts. Both will stimulate growth. However, you will be anabolic more of the time if you can actually create that stimulus more often. In the case of HST, 3 times as often. There is a physiological benefit (acute anabolic effects of training) in doing 9 sets as 3 sets X 3 workouts, as opposed to 9 sets all at once - and then nothing for the next 7 days.
 
yeah, sticky posts would be awesome.

but, we'd need a moderator for that, and Mreik is like THE ONLY mod I've ever seen here.
 
What I don't get about FBW is the recovery. I've only been lifting for a couple months, but after every single workout (I'm doing a 3-day split) I'm sore in the muscles I worked for at least 2 days. I can't see why changing to a FBW would change that, and that means I couldn't do a FBW 3 days a week or every other day. I'd have to rest at least 2 days between every workout... maybe that's fine too, although it's certainly not convenient as you can't have "set" lifting days that you know you'll have to dedicate time to. It also means that I'd be spending nearly my entire life sore. What's the point of lifting to build strength if you can never use that strength in practical applications because you're sore from lifting? At least with the split I can use my legs two days after my leg workout and lats two days after my bicep/back workout, etc.

By the way, my workout is not very intense.

Monday - Bench Press, Incline Bench Press, Dips, Ab work

Wednesday - Bent-Over Rows, Shrugs, Wide-Grip Overhand Pullups, Close-Grip Underhand Pullups, Ab work

Friday - Squats three times a month/Deadlifts once a month, Stiff-Leg Straight-Back Deadlifts, Standing Calf Raises, Military Press, Upright Rows, Ab Work
 
soreness.. *takes deep breath*.. sucks. you actually shouldnt be very sore, its not a good sign.
3 days a week, im usually not even sore the day after, and if i am, it passes during my one resting day.
With fullbody routines you shouldnt go to failiure too much and have too high volume, since that will increase recovery time.

and id say that was pretty intense, atleast alot of exersices hitting the same muscles. what are the set/reps?
 
MichaelA said:
What I don't get about FBW is the recovery. I've only been lifting for a couple months, but after every single workout (I'm doing a 3-day split) I'm sore in the muscles I worked for at least 2 days. I can't see why changing to a FBW would change that, and that means I couldn't do a FBW 3 days a week or every other day. I'd have to rest at least 2 days between every workout... maybe that's fine too, although it's certainly not convenient as you can't have "set" lifting days that you know you'll have to dedicate time to. It also means that I'd be spending nearly my entire life sore. What's the point of lifting to build strength if you can never use that strength in practical applications because you're sore from lifting? At least with the split I can use my legs two days after my leg workout and lats two days after my bicep/back workout, etc.

By the way, my workout is not very intense.

Monday - Bench Press, Incline Bench Press, Dips, Ab work

Wednesday - Bent-Over Rows, Shrugs, Wide-Grip Overhand Pullups, Close-Grip Underhand Pullups, Ab work

Friday - Squats three times a month/Deadlifts once a month, Stiff-Leg Straight-Back Deadlifts, Standing Calf Raises, Military Press, Upright Rows, Ab Work
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is there a head banging on the wall smilie:rolleyes:
if you take time to actually read the posts people put up in my previous post you will see that your questions are answered..and soreness means nothing as far as hypertrophy is concerned.
 
Karky said:
soreness.. *takes deep breath*.. sucks. you actually shouldnt be very sore, its not a good sign.
3 days a week, im usually not even sore the day after, and if i am, it passes during my one resting day.
With fullbody routines you shouldnt go to failiure too much and have too high volume, since that will increase recovery time.

and id say that was pretty intense, atleast alot of exersices hitting the same muscles. what are the set/reps?
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3x10 for all of them except pullups, because I can't do 10. For those I do until failure (generally 3 for the first set and 2 for the remaining sets) for 4 sets. I usually end up doing less for the final sets of the bench press because I max out. Lots of the exercise advice I read says that the last rep of each set should be the last you are able to do, and therefore for 3x10 you should just barely be able to complete the last rep. But I find that if I choose a weight where I can do 10 for 3 sets, I can usually do 12 or 13 for the first set, and then only 10 for the last 2. If I choose a weight where I can only do 10 for the first set, I can only do 8-10 for the second set and 6-8 for the last set. Because there's all sorts of contradictory advice out there I've had to cobble together my routine out of what makes sense to me, although I don't know what to make of the constant soreness.
 
buzz said:
is there a head banging on the wall smilie:rolleyes:
if you take time to actually read the posts people put up in my previous post you will see that your questions are answered..and soreness means nothing as far as hypertrophy is concerned.
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I don't see how my question is answered. Who cares what soreness means? The most superficial and inhibiting aspect of soreness is that it hurts to exercise a sore muscle. Therefore I don't see how I could even do a 3x week FBW, physically.
 
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