back exercises

FEELthePUMP said:
just a question. i have seen guys that are gaining muscle on a 2600 calorie/day diet.
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1. They probably aren't sure what they're eating in terms of calories.

2. If they're not sure, you're definitely not sure.

3. What one will gain on, another will not. For instance, most people I know can gain nicely with 2700-3000 calories. I will not. Completely dependent on training, genetics, muscle mass, etc, etc.

4. Also, keep in mind that what's a deficit for some may be a surplus for others and vice versa.

[quote}That's what i'm on. I know while i am not getting extreme amounts of protien and carbs that i would need to gain alot of muscle wouldn't i still be gaining muscle while dieting?[/QUOTE]

I can't answer that.

What are your stats again?

When you're in a caloric deficit, especially when you're not overly fat and/or completely used to being sedentary, chances of gaining any significant/noticeable muscle are slim unless a) you're on drugs or b) you're a genetic freak.

I know guys on the Internet who supposedly can gain muscle and lose fat to a significant degree while dieting. I also think they're on drugs.

In my time as a trainer and a general 'gym rat,' I've known one guy who could. He was seriously a genetic freak. Even before getting serious with weights he had more muscle mass than me and was lean as all hell and ate whatever the hell he wanted.

Most people aren't that lucky, including me.
 
well the guy i seen was about my size. 6'1 225 but more muscular than i. I have always been a big guy and it's not too hard for me to gain muscle. I wouldn't say i'm a genetic freak but if you look at my pictures i've only been lifting for 5 months. Before than i was lifting on and off but not much. Like i said i'm 6'1 225 i'm not sure what my body fat is though. is doing 8 workouts going to hurt more than help or is it jsut unneccessary?????? I would have a hard time going to the gym and just doing 5 exercises. I'm the guy that if he works or works out he has to do it hard, not to say you don't hit the gym hard but i just have to get crazy with it. I think with 8 i would be satisfied. here's my new spit, probably to many exercises as you said, hopefully this one is better. I haven't started this yet but plan on starting some kind of spit right on monday.
 
FEELthePUMP said:
well the guy i seen was about my size. 6'1 225 but more muscular than i.
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Gaining significant muscle on 2600 calories.

That woudl be a first for me.

I'd also wager a ton on a) he's not natural or b) he's lying about his food intake.

I have always been a big guy and it's not too hard for me to gain muscle. I wouldn't say i'm a genetic freak but if you look at my pictures i've only been lifting for 5 months. Before than i was lifting on and off but not much.
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You carry a lot of muscle naturally compared to others. When you start losing weight, said muscle mass will be magnified. Don't confuse this with adding a lot of muscle.

Have you been getting lbm measured and if so how?

Have you been taking measurements?

How much weight have you lost?

Like i said i'm 6'1 225 i'm not sure what my body fat is though.
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That answers my question above.

is doing 8 workouts going to hurt more than help or is it jsut unneccessary??????
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Don't know.

Definitely unnecessary and time could be better spent. Have to ask what the opportunity cost is.

Also, could lead to lack of progress in terms of hypertrophy, not that you're going for that right now.

But the fact that you're not going for that right now should warrant even less exercise.

I would have a hard time going to the gym and just doing 5 exercises. I'm the guy that if he works or works out he has to do it hard, not to say you don't hit the gym hard but i just have to get crazy with it.
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Have at it then.

Listen, you seem pretty set in your ways. I wouldn't worry about what I think or know. If you're experiencing the kind of progress you desire... keep it up.

I have come across random guys who will succeed in spite of how fucked up I think their routine is, and maybe you fall in this camp.

I assure you I leave the gym taxed and beat. I'm strong than anyone in my gym except for one guy who outweighs me by a good 75 lbs. Pound for pound I am the strongest.

You've seen my pics I presume, not that that proves much of anything.

Let's put it this way. The routines you keep suggesting are similar to what most guys are doing in the gym and most of them look like they've been training for 3 months when in reality they've been training for years.

There's an optimal dose of volume for hypertrophy and going beyond that doesn't do anything and can hurt gains.
 
monday,
flat bench 3x10
decline bench 3x10
incline dumbell flys 3x10
military press 3x10
dumbell side raises 3x10
skull crushers 3x10
alternating cable extensions 3x10
standing calve raise 3x10

Tuesday,
squats 3x10
stiff leg dead lift 3x10 dumbells
leg curls 3x10
incline dumbell curls 3x10
hammer curls 3x10
reverse flys 3x10
lat pulldown 3x10
crunches 3x20

thursday,
flat bench 3x10
incline bench 3x10
flat dumbell flys
arnold press 3x10
laying tricep extensions 3x10
2 handed cable extensions(half way) 3x10
dumbell front extensions
sitting calve raise

friday
dead lift 3x10
leg extension 3x10
hip abdutions 3x10
sitting dumbell curls 3x10
21's
dumbell rows 3x10
lat pull down 3x10
decline sit-ups 3x10

I can live with this, is this spit getting at all better. haha.!
 
No.

But who cares, lol.

If you are successful with it and enjoy it, that's all that matters.
 
I've lost 75 pounds. and yes good advise. I know that now i look stronger but most of that is because of losing the fat. you're probably right, i am set in my ways but only because i like the way this spit is set up. you probably won't convince me to try another one but i'm just trying to pick your brain so i can make this spit the best it can be. i know you know what your talking about. I have been taking measurements and pictures of my body too. from my drastic wieight loss i only have a few good photo's that show it. i will post my pic at my largest and one of me now. Take a look.
 
FEELthePUMP said:
I've lost 75 pounds. and yes good advise. I know that now i look stronger but most of that is because of losing the fat.
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Happens 100% of the time it seems.

Even with myself.

I go through phases of building up muscle and losing fat.

Invariably when I lose fat I look bigger, and that's shooting between a range of 205 lbs and 185 lbs.

you're probably right, i am set in my ways but only because i like the way this spit is set up.
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Why?

I ask only out of curiosity at this stage.

What about it do you like?

To like something you have to have reason to believe it is best for you... so what is that reason or reasons? What do you feel this split provides you that another doesn't?

you probably won't convince me to try another one but i'm just trying to pick your brain so i can make this spit the best it can be.
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Magic rests in the manipulation of volume and intensity.

Not the exercises you perform. Or the split you follow.

What you're laying out is too much volume for most to gain muscle on.

It's waaayyyyyy too much to do while dieting relative to anyone I know.

Does that mean it's going to ruin you?

Or kill you?

Nope.
 
i like it mainly because i get to bench, work my biceps and tricpes 2 times a week. other slits i've seen only do those once a week. Maybe i haven't found any good splits yet. i dunno. I don't feel i'll make progress doing those only once a week. am i wrong? please explain if so.
 
No way is once per week an optimal split.

It's like this.

Research has shown an optimal range of volume to apply to your body systemically for best results in terms of hypertrophy.

Do too much, and it will only take longer to recover while not adding to the growth stimulus.

Finding that balance which allows you to train the muscle with a sufficient progression in work/volume, load and frequency is about once every 5 days to twice a week for most people.

30 -50 reps for large bodyparts

The data suggests this to be optimal as does experience. Optimal for hypertrophy. For dieting, optimal load is actually less!

The split I originally suggested to you did provide a training stimulus twice per week per muscle.

Monday: Upper - heavy horizontal / light vertical
Tuesday: Lower - quad dominant
Thursday: Upper - heavy vertical / light horizontal
Friday: Lowr - posterior chain dominant

Put differently it could look something like:

Monday:

BB Bench - 3-5 x 4-8
BB Row - 3-5 x 4-8
DB Overhead Press - 2-3 x 8-15
Cable Pulldowns - 2-3 x 8-15

Tuesday:

Full Squats - 3-5 x 4-8
Romanian Deadlifts - 3-5 x 4-8
Bulgarian Split Squats - 2-3 x 8-15
Calves

Thurday:

Pullups - 3-5 x 4-8
Push Press - 3-5 x 4-6
Cable Rows - 2-3 x 8-15
DB Incline Bench Press - 2-3 x 8-15

Friday:

Deadlifts - 3-5 x 4-8
Front Squat - 3-5 x 4-8
SHELCs - 2-3 x 8-15
Calves

Somthing like this not only allows you to train each body part twice per week with optimal loading but also allows you to vary rep ranges which is useful.

Also keep in mind that you're a novice by most standards. You've been lifting off and on for years but training status is determined by how long you've been at it consistently. A novice will make gains in strength/muscle in spite of what they do in the gym. Period. If you're consistenly lifting and focusing on getting stronger, you'll see improvements.

Down the road you might not be so keen on your 'split.'
 
Sure there are.

See the rowing.

See the pulling.

What muscles do you think are working there?

If you feel the need, you could always throw in some bi and tri work at the end but keep it to sane. When I'm dieting, I do very little direct arm work. At most 2-3 sets per week of bis and 2-3 sets per week of tris.

Why spend time on them when the best you're doing is maintaining while dieting and the pulling and rowing will be enough to stimulate maintenance. I'd rather spend my time doing metabolic work to expend some calories.

When bulking I'll *maybe* double that volume.
 
yeah. i just love working my biceps and triceps. Arms all together really. how many calories per day would a guy my size need to gain muscle effectively? without getting fat.
 
That's real hard to say.

Bulking is always a matter of finding the sweet spot where you're supplying your body enough energy to facilitate muscle growth but not so much that you're packing away a ton of fat.

Fat gain while bulking is inevitable.

But it can certainly be minimized.

Some with slower metabolisms can gain on 15-16 calories per pound. Others require more. For instance, I need up around 18-19 per pound to gain.

When you're ready to bulk, be conservative and ramp up towards your supposed maintenance systematically. Once there, start adding 10% or so every two weeks until you start seeing the desired results.

Looking at your pics though, I wouldn't be bulking if I were you.
 
no i'm not there yet. I'd like to get down to 200 before i start bulking. I'm too fat right now. and when i do i will be really carefull not to gain fat.
 
FEELthePUMP said:
no i'm not there yet. I'd like to get down to 200 before i start bulking.
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I'd base it more on appearance than a particular weight if I were you.

I'm too fat right now. and when i do i will be really carefull not to gain fat.
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Manage expectations carefully.

You'd be better saying, "be really careful not to gain a lot of fat."

You will gain fat.
 
true, but i'm thinking i need to get down to 200 to look how i wanna look. who knows maybe it needs to be below 200. being as big as i was gaining fat really isn't an option. A couple lbs of fat maybe but i wouldn't gain 10 lbs of fat to gain muscle. I'd rather not bulk and just do things slow.
 
FEELthePUMP said:
true, but i'm thinking i need to get down to 200 to look how i wanna look. who knows maybe it needs to be below 200. being as big as i was gaining fat really isn't an option. A couple lbs of fat maybe but i wouldn't gain 10 lbs of fat to gain muscle. I'd rather not bulk and just do things slow.
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Speed has little to do with it.

Your genetic proclivity to partition calories to fat or muscle is the overriding principle.

You can sway this one way or the other based on training and nutrition. But even hitting your 'sweet spot' of calorie intake will lead to a fraction of each pound gained as being fat.

People who try and avoid this I equate to people who jump off buildings and flap their arms in an attempt to fly.

The end result is they don't go very far.
 
well what would be the best way to go at it then. Lose the weight and maintain my strength and then build the muscle and the fat back. I don't understand.
 
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