Alligatorob's Diary
- Thread starter alligatorob
- Start date
I don’t see you as being at all aggressive. Stubborn = determined, which I definitely am too.My goodness, Rob. 1200 calories is going to make you binge……. That you keep doing this day in a day out is the INSANITY of this disorder.
This is what I mean by overexercising.
I believe you also binge to deal with emotional pain.
There are many beautiful and beneficial gifts of OA and other 12 step programs but the basic premise is flawed in my opinion. The moral and disease models of addiction are wrong but they can be helpful for some. The healthcare system can make things much worse unless you get very lucky. OA helped me realize how much I was obsessing on things and how crazy my thinking was and how poorly I thought of myself and how poorly I was treating myself. When I was on this forum, it was also obsessing.
Of course, you’re a wonderful person, Rob.
alligatorob
Respected Member
Thanks Rob, and I would very much like to know more of your story. How were you able to stop obsessing? How are you doing now? Have you stopped bingeing? How much exercise are you doing? I know I am not the only one here who would like to know more about what you are doing.
alligatorob
Respected Member
Today was a good day, ate well and was feeling good enough to get some exercise. Tomorrow I'll try going back to the gym for a couple of hours. I think I will be ok, its been a mild cold.
Hey Rob, I’m doing fine. It’s been a long time since I’ve binged but I’ve been careful to eat enough and not expend too many calories. Those train tracks have been laid in my brain and I can go back there pretty quickly so I am careful but I’m not perfect and I give myself a break if something does happen and go right back to where I was. It’s not like it was before even if something does happen. I’ve healed so much just from maintaining in that way and eating healthy whole food. Some grass is growing over the train tracks. Initially it was very difficult emotionally not to binge, I was very careful and obsessive about it but I learned to relax a lot more now. That mostly happened by connecting with other people and getting more comfortable with myself. I was on benzos long-term and got addicted to them. I didn’t understand that I was addicted and stopped cold turkey, ended up going back on them and then getting off again still way too fast. That really messed me up and I realized large amounts of sugar made me suicidal when I was healing from the cold turkeys. I started posting on this forum early on healing from the cold turkeys. That’s more information than you wanted to know I’m sure and there’s more to that story and I was on other medication that affected me too but I don’t need to share all that. I don’t take any medication now.
I use a calorie counter and I’m usually between 2500 and 3000. I don’t obsess, it’s more of a guide, kind of habit or routine at this point. I walk almost every day, sometimes up to 6 miles a day but usually not over that. Still have that knee injury. I got some adjustable weights at home and lift occasionally but I injured my shoulder too (almost 2 years ago now) so I have trouble maintaining consistency. I’ve tried PT and an injection for the shoulder but it’s still giving me trouble. I do eat fish, and I make a pretty big effort to stay away from sweets and processed foods because they can trigger a binge in large quantities and if I do eat them, I eat them with other food in a very small amount. I needed to reduce coffee too, that took a long time. I rarely drink alcohol, it can cause issues so I stay away. I was up in weight a little bit when I went to the doctor in October so I’ve been walking more.
That’s it, I progressively let go of my grip on trying to control my weight, weighing myself, obsessing about food, body image. It was other areas of my life too, Rob, I learned to let go of a lot. I’m still letting go.
I’m sorry if I was rude and interjected/hijacked your thread, I do wish you the best and every success. Take care.
Rob,
Replying to your email here on the forum….
Well, when you're living in an extreme state of restriction, the slightest thing can trigger a binge. When you say on the days you eat a bit more breakfast or lunch you’re more likely to be triggered to binge, I notice that’s 1:1 cause and effect thinking and some of your other speculations seem like that too. In a healthier pattern of thinking, it’s not a 1:1 cause and effect like. If I have a relatively slightly harder workout on Wednesday, a difficult emotional conversation with a friend on Thursday and I’m living in an extreme state of restriction, it can trigger a binge on Friday and I can think that it’s because I ate too much breakfast on Friday morning, but it’s really about a cumulative effect of several things that happened between Friday and Wednesday. When you’re in a less extreme state, it’s not 1:1 like that.
Are there any particular foods you’re craving? Like sweets or carbs? What kind? What specific foods? And in those moments, when you have a binge, what is the relief that you feel? Is it a sensation of being full again or is it like a reward? What specifically do you feel relief from emotionally and physically and what foods do you reach for specifically to get that relief?
If you ate an extra 1300 calories (2500 total) of legumes, whole grains, vegetables, fruits with lots of fiber and exercised not more than 30 minutes a day do you still think you’d be triggered to binge? You likely will but I’m suggesting to you that it soften the cravings just enough and if you hold on emotionally through that over weeks, months, you’ll eventually come out of that feeling that you have to binge once you’re over a certain amount of calories. You have to resist the craving to exercise more or be highly active too. You’ll get to a place where you’re not in the extreme and your thinking will start to change. That’s how it happened for me. I had to have a little bit of faith and let go of the grip that I had on my patterns of eating and exercising. I had to have a healthy whole balanced diet in place without trigger foods like processed junk, sugar, alcohol (for me) to do it. Initially, it’s very hard emotionally, but it gets easier. The 1:1 cause and effect thinking starts to go away and emotional states become less extreme. It takes a lot of courage and faith to let go like that especially when you’ve been in this pattern for so long. Think of it like a “detox." It feels weird, the world doesn’t make sense, you can’t relate to people in the same way, there’s all sorts of weird body feelings and silly weird ways of thinking but it eventually rights itself and things become more normalized and the emotions and thinking start to sort out. I had to accept whatever came, including any long term outcomes. I had to let go of trying to control. I’m still emotional at my baseline when I’m eating well and not overexercising. My emotional baseline is probably higher than the norm and bingeing exacerbates it further. But I had to figure that out for myself and accept that I’m just a more emotional person than most people. I had to accept that my weight fluctuates or that once I stopped bingeing, I was higher than I wanted to be. I had to accept that I couldn’t use food to comfort myself anymore. I had to accept that I need to rest more than I’d like to. Letting go of trying to control and accepting is the hardest part. I’m still sorting things out this way.
Food and exercise/activity (energy) is about balance in the long run. You get out of the bingeing and restriction by living with small margins. You have to eliminate the large effect sizes/extremes and know what triggers them (like junk food for me or too much stress). Eating too few calories is your actual trigger here and most glaring that I clearly see, there’s no getting around basic human calorie requirements. You’ll uncover more triggers as you go.
Do you have an activity tracker so you have some idea of how much you’re burning? I mean calories burned to be calories burned through actual exercise plus all non exercise activity thermogenesis (NEAT) calories too.
Replying to your email here on the forum….
Well, when you're living in an extreme state of restriction, the slightest thing can trigger a binge. When you say on the days you eat a bit more breakfast or lunch you’re more likely to be triggered to binge, I notice that’s 1:1 cause and effect thinking and some of your other speculations seem like that too. In a healthier pattern of thinking, it’s not a 1:1 cause and effect like. If I have a relatively slightly harder workout on Wednesday, a difficult emotional conversation with a friend on Thursday and I’m living in an extreme state of restriction, it can trigger a binge on Friday and I can think that it’s because I ate too much breakfast on Friday morning, but it’s really about a cumulative effect of several things that happened between Friday and Wednesday. When you’re in a less extreme state, it’s not 1:1 like that.
Are there any particular foods you’re craving? Like sweets or carbs? What kind? What specific foods? And in those moments, when you have a binge, what is the relief that you feel? Is it a sensation of being full again or is it like a reward? What specifically do you feel relief from emotionally and physically and what foods do you reach for specifically to get that relief?
If you ate an extra 1300 calories (2500 total) of legumes, whole grains, vegetables, fruits with lots of fiber and exercised not more than 30 minutes a day do you still think you’d be triggered to binge? You likely will but I’m suggesting to you that it soften the cravings just enough and if you hold on emotionally through that over weeks, months, you’ll eventually come out of that feeling that you have to binge once you’re over a certain amount of calories. You have to resist the craving to exercise more or be highly active too. You’ll get to a place where you’re not in the extreme and your thinking will start to change. That’s how it happened for me. I had to have a little bit of faith and let go of the grip that I had on my patterns of eating and exercising. I had to have a healthy whole balanced diet in place without trigger foods like processed junk, sugar, alcohol (for me) to do it. Initially, it’s very hard emotionally, but it gets easier. The 1:1 cause and effect thinking starts to go away and emotional states become less extreme. It takes a lot of courage and faith to let go like that especially when you’ve been in this pattern for so long. Think of it like a “detox." It feels weird, the world doesn’t make sense, you can’t relate to people in the same way, there’s all sorts of weird body feelings and silly weird ways of thinking but it eventually rights itself and things become more normalized and the emotions and thinking start to sort out. I had to accept whatever came, including any long term outcomes. I had to let go of trying to control. I’m still emotional at my baseline when I’m eating well and not overexercising. My emotional baseline is probably higher than the norm and bingeing exacerbates it further. But I had to figure that out for myself and accept that I’m just a more emotional person than most people. I had to accept that my weight fluctuates or that once I stopped bingeing, I was higher than I wanted to be. I had to accept that I couldn’t use food to comfort myself anymore. I had to accept that I need to rest more than I’d like to. Letting go of trying to control and accepting is the hardest part. I’m still sorting things out this way.
Food and exercise/activity (energy) is about balance in the long run. You get out of the bingeing and restriction by living with small margins. You have to eliminate the large effect sizes/extremes and know what triggers them (like junk food for me or too much stress). Eating too few calories is your actual trigger here and most glaring that I clearly see, there’s no getting around basic human calorie requirements. You’ll uncover more triggers as you go.
Do you have an activity tracker so you have some idea of how much you’re burning? I mean calories burned to be calories burned through actual exercise plus all non exercise activity thermogenesis (NEAT) calories too.
alligatorob
Respected Member
I've been bingeing but today was a better day. Cold is getting better. Spent the weekend clearing snow, the hardest snow plowing I've done in a while. 
Gym was fine Friday, but I kept it to about 2 hours and did not push hard. Go back tommorrow.
Thanks Cate, better today too, all but the cough, that may last a while.
alligatorob
Respected Member
Rob, thanks for your posts, I do appreciate them. Will try to respond now, but it is late and I am a bit tired. I have had to cut some of the text from your quotes to get under the forum's word limit.
Rob, I do appreciate the time and effort you are putting into this, and I value your knowledge.
Thanks, I do recall you saying something about the medication when you were here before. What changed for you that most help end the bingeing, and keep it ended. I know your story is different from mine, but I may be able to learn something from your experience.
I think I would gain weight at 2,500 to 3,000 calories a day, not really sure what a good maintenance calorie intake for me is. Maybe something like 2,000 to 2,500. I am a coffee drinker, and never have heard that would be problem. I only drink a couple of cups in the morning, rarely more. I drink alcohol moderately, maybe 3 times a month, less than once a week I am sure. And I make my own, so no shortage, just don't crave it. So long as I don't drink much I don't really have problems.
Maybe that would make sense for me, it's all about weight for me, and I do obsess about it...
Of course not, that is what these threads are for, your words are much appreciated.
Yeah, can't disagree with that... not an easy thing to admit.
Interesting observation, I need to think a bit about it. You make some valid points.
I can crave most anything, but its more often high calorie sweet and/or fat foods. Just what I can lay my hands on. I have binged on lettuce, green beans, even on ice once. One time I ate a couple of pounds of frozen broccoli. But those are not the foods I usually crave, only when its all I can get.
Hard to describe, its a kind of release, all other thoughts fade away. Nothing to do with hunger or feeling full. As I said I reach for anything available, if I have choices the higher calorie the better.
Yes, in fact the 2,500 calories of food would likely make the urges greater. I find that I am less likely to binge on good exercise days.
Maybe, but it seems counter to my experience. However I can't say you are wrong, what I am doing now isn't working very well.
Knowing what worked for you is a help to me. How were you able to "accept that I couldn’t use food to comfort myself anymore". I have tried telling myself that many times, but not much success so far...
You may be right, but I am not sure how to get there from here, in the shorter term anyway it is the increased calories that seem to me to be the trigger...
I have a fitbit, but it seems to have stopped working. I will probably replace it. When it worked it said I was burning around 2,000 to 2,500 calories a day. I am a bit older than you, so probably burn fewer calories then you.
Rob, I do appreciate the time and effort you are putting into this, and I value your knowledge.
Changing my behavior, giving up bingeing, overexercising, and restricting, accepting myself. I was bingeing before I got addicted to the medication.
I would suggest 2500 of wholesome fiber rich legumes, whole grains, fruits and vegetables. Yes, you are older but you are also very active. Start there, you can always adjust. Your coffee and alcohol sound moderate and fine to me. Mine were extreme which was the problem.
What if you stop weighing yourself and stop posting about it?
When I’m obsessing, I have to stop, resist it, leave, walk away, eventually my mind settles down.Edit: Obsessing over body image, weight, tracking, exercise, etc. drives the behavior to restrict.
Your body wants energy (quick and long-term) because you’re in extreme restriction. It was the same thing for me. If you eat 2500 calories of wholesome nutritious food day in and day out, these cravings will diminish. You describe a lot of daily activity in your posts in addition to the exercise. E.g., plowing snow. I’m sure you burn A LOT of calories that way. An activity tracker will give you some idea of how much. Adjust your calories based on that too.
Precisely.
I found other ways to deal with the pain. I dug into the feelings to find out why I was feeling that way. The extremes gave me good highs but the consequences were too great. I didn’t want to hurt myself that way anymore.
Your real trigger is the calorie deficit that catches up with you. Start eating more healthy whole food consistently and you’ll eventually stop thinking this way.
I’m realizing I’m really glad I sat through 3 years of OA meetings to get the messages. When you first come in you’re told to get a sponsor and follow their suggestions because you’re not able to see it. I couldn’t see it until I started to change my behavior first.
You’re afraid of eating more calories and you’re obsessing on your weight. What you’ve been doing is not working for you. This idea that eating above 1200 calories is your mind looking for a loophole. I’m suggesting those extreme states (bingeing, overexercising, restricting) give you a high that you crave. You have to be willing to give that up by changing the behavior first, and resisting the cravings and persisting through the withdrawal. Things will get better if you hold steady and ride it out.
Last edited:
alligatorob
Respected Member
Today was a good day, I ate acceptably (too many sweet things, but not too many calories) and exercised. I feel good tonight.
It really was, the biggest problem was that we had a lot of wind and the snow drifted in our driveway over 1 meter deep in places for a distance of 40 or 50 meters. That wind blown snow was very hard and very heavy, it took hours of beating on it to break it up and then scooping it out with the front end loader. In the process I built about 6 huge piles on our property just trying to get rid of it. Snow is not usually that hard to clear. I agree it is picturesque.
alligatorob
Respected Member
I already started upping my calories today, not that high, but higher. Did not eat the most wholesome of foods, but I will try to get more. I am going to give it a try and see how it goes. Maybe I'll shoot a little lower, 2,000 or so calories a day might be better for me. To start with anyway.
I will give that a try, I am a compulsive weigher it may be a struggle. I may still try weighing once a month or so to see how its going. How often do you weigh now? I could drop the exercise tracking as well, but I really enjoy getting out to the gym and seeing my "gym pals". I don't want to give that up.
I will replace my fitbit, and see what it says when I do.
I really don't think I binge for emotional reasons, not typically. After bingeing I can feel pretty bad about it, but I don't think I am any more likely to binge when I am down than other times. I can feel just great and binge...
I appreciate your suggestion and will give it a try. I am not sure it will work, but as discussed what I am doing now isn't working, trying something new. Something that worked for you, is worth a try.
Years ago I went to OA, and I agree they have a lot of good things to say. I was just never able to get into the spiritual part and working some of the steps. Maybe I'll see if I can find a good meeting around here, it will mean a 30 min drive or more, but it may be worthwhile.
I will give it a try, and I appreciate you pointing me in this direction.
I’m suggesting to stop restricting, Rob. If you eat only 2000 calories and keep activity high, it will eventually catch up with you and you will binge. And then you will use that as reason that it doesn’t work! You can’t get around basic calorie requirements and you have to let go of restricting if you want to stop bingeing. The urge to restrict and overexercise is what you have to let go of. Let go of this control. It is the problem. Push past the feelings and thoughts telling you otherwise. Think about being healthy and what you’ll have and replace your need to control.
Also, I have to ask, do you think you can live indefinitely in restriction? You are human just like everybody else and will ultimately die of malnourishment or binge if you try to live that way. You are bingeing! Can you not see that connection? That is what they call the “insanity” of the “disease” in OA. So many people get caught up like this. It is like an anorexic who continues to believe they are fat when they look in the mirror or step on the scale. Despite the reality, they believe differently and obsess and compulsively carry out the behavior despite the negative consequences. I hope this makes sense to you and you are not offended by me pointing this out.
Last time I weighed was at the doctor’s office in October. I’ll probably get weighed again when I go for knee surgery a second time in a couple months or so.
You might be surprised how many triggers you find and how many things are connected. Are you a perfectionist? It seems almost everybody who has struggled like this is. I have a lot of triggers but I needed a bigger understanding of me too. I don’t keep certain foods in the house like peanut butter or cookies. I can binge when I’m happy too. Triggers are tricky and can be subtle. Keep an eye out and be honest about wanting to reach for something. What is actually going on? You may have to think back over the past 2-3 days or more broadly about your life and situation.
This was very hard for me, Rob. It was very difficult to resist the urges and to emotionally deal with stopping the control early on and it took a lot of courage. It’s taken me years to work out what works for me.
The basic idea behind the steps is to believe in something greater than yourself (e.g., nature or connecting with other people), clean up your past, live in today, and help others. Not a bad message. For me, the idea that this behavior is somehow connected to my “defects” (immoral) or that I have a “disease” is wrong. I’m human, I dealt with some painful experiences this way because I couldn’t work out a better way, there’s nothing “wrong” with me. I know how to recognize what’s going on and cope in much healthier ways now.
I’ll post some of my food logs in a bit so you have an idea of what I’m eating and my calories. You won’t be able to see the amount of fiber but it’s been very helpful for me to eat more fiber. I eat 60-80 grams a day usually.
It helps with satiety, it’s in healthier whole foods.Here are some food logs from the past 3 days. There’s something wrong with the activity import. It’s like it double counts the calories or something so I very loosely go off of that. I just do some mental math… about 100 calories per mile walked. Sat I walked 6 miles, Sunday I didn’t walk at all, and yesterday I walked 6 miles again.
alligatorob
Respected Member
Today was a good day, I ate relatively well, although I am having some problems adapting to the new higher calorie goal. Having a hard time finding 2,000 calories of non junk food... Got in some exercise and I feel good.
Went ice fishing for a little while this afternoon, just joined a friend who was out on a lake near here. It was my first time ice fishing, my friend caught a nice trout while I was there I did not catch anything, but I was only there for about an hour. I think I am going to try and figure out how to ice fish, something to do in winter.
Went ice fishing for a little while this afternoon, just joined a friend who was out on a lake near here. It was my first time ice fishing, my friend caught a nice trout while I was there I did not catch anything, but I was only there for about an hour. I think I am going to try and figure out how to ice fish, something to do in winter.
alligatorob
Respected Member
I will try, but right now I am having trouble even getting up to the 2,000 calorie number. Without eating junk that's a lot of food. I probably don't exercise as vigorously as you do. I don't do a lot of aerobic things, mostly weight lifting, strength training, and things I've learned in physical therapy. Not sure 2 or 3 hours of what I do in the gym is at the same level of effort as most.
I understand, and of course we can't live in restriction forever. I am not sure 2,000 calories is restricting for me. If it turns out that it is I should see some weight loss. I could probably stand to lose 25 pounds, so that wouldn't hurt me. But I suspect I will not lose much, and I have decided to wait a month to weigh and not obsess about it along the way. Though I have to be honest it is hard for me not to observe the fat I have gained... and not like it. My current weight is a bit higher than ideal, but its probably not unhealthy and a whole lot less than where I was a few years ago.
Nothing you say offends, don't worry about that.
I will do more thinking about the trigger thing, maybe there is something I am missing. Not sure about the perfectionist thing, my quick answer is no, but I know at times I can obsess about getting things right. I try to keep as much junk food out of the house as I can, but I do not live alone and can't eliminate everything.
Well, so far, since starting eating more in a planned way, it has not been hard, but nothing ever is in the short run. And I am only 2 days in so it has not really been tested.