30lbs in 6 weeks
- Thread starter Proteinboy
- Start date
Well said.
I'm hoping to try that, I'm hoping for at least 5 pounds muscle.
1. People who are small are always the ones who say things can't be done. If they stop doubting and start doing, they may find that more is possible than they think.
2. After 17 years in the iron game. Traveling the country as a competitive OL, power lifter, and strongman, getting a degree in exercise phys, getting certifications from ace, nasm, nsca, and acsm, strength coaching at the collegiate level, being a personal trainer for 11 years, and being in contact with some of the best athletes and lifters there are.
Yea, I am probably not and expert.:11doh: But, I do have some knowledge to share, and a list of things to learn.
3. Trevor, you need to open your mind. I have witnessed just about everything that people say is impossible and can safely that the only people who achieve "the impossible" are the ones not listening to people like you.
HELL, YES.............ROCK ON WITH THESE THOUGHTS BROTHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Anything is possible.........with a POSSIBLE MIND!........
ROCK IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Best wishes
Chillen
Which bring me back to my goal of becoing a rock star!!!!
Actually, Chillen...G and I were talking on the phone the other day about the importance of mind over everything else and it's the determination of the individual that is the determing quality in success or failure.
I think Trevor's point is not so much based on the issue of attitude and motivation and " doubting " ones abilities as being limiting factors in achieving one's fitness goals - ie. simply say things can't be done " but rather, Trevor is " speaking from a physiological stand point. The body simply can NOT build that much LBM in that short of a time ". You can be determined as hell and have the best attitude in the world, but simply wishing for something to be true or saying something is true often enough isn't going to make it true.
So, much like there are relative physiological limits as to how much glycogen an average person can store, how quickly glycogen can be replaced per hour, how many amino acids can be utilized for tissue metabolism not only per hour ( and overall as well in terms of when excess protein gets used as energy or stored as fat ), I suspect there is a limit as to how much lean muscle mass a human being can add in a given period of time - even under ' theoretically perfect ' conditions. In other words, there has to be an upper limit.
Obviously the context of this 30lbs in 6 weeks these authors allege has be put in the proper context. Not having read the book, I don't know what that context is. But for example, can someone who is an intermediate to advanced lifter who has has all the CNS adaption for lifting optimized gain 30lbs in 6 weeks as easily as a beginner can ? Or is 30lbs in 6 weeks even applicable to beginners ? I'm not sure what ' optimal ' conditions the book has laid out to guarantee a result of 30lbs in 6 weeks ?
The context / rationale for 30lbs in 6 weeks seems key ( in assessing whether this claim is valid ) because I don't think anyone would reasonably expect that it is possible to gain 60 lbs. of muscle mass in 3 months....or 90 lbs in 4 and half months.
In other words, even if gaining 30lbs in 6 weeks is possible, the conditions that they claim must be present to pull this off may shed light as to why these sorts of gains can't be sustained indefinitely.Impressive credentials. Well done !
Based on your vast experience in fitness and training and your academic credentials - " a degree in exercise phys " - I would be interested in your professional opinion.
Under ' theoretically perfect ' conditions - i.e a person ( i.e. average gym rat ) knows how to train at maximum intensity, a person can dedicate as much time as needed per day and or per week to weight training, a person who's nutrition is impeccable in terms of calories and macro-nutrients to optimize mass gains ( excluding drugs ) - what is the ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM gain in lean muscle mass do you think a person can achieve in a week ?
Is the ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM possible gain in lean muscle mass 5 lbs. per week ( as in this case ) or do you think 6,7 or even 8 lbs. per week might be possible ? Or, if the 6 week time horizon is a better basis of comparison, do you think a gain of 35, 40, 45 + pounds in 6 weeks is even in the realm of possibility ( without drugs of course
) ?What does science suggest is the theoretical ' upper limit ' in terms of muscle mass gain per week / month in your view ?
Welcome your thoughts.
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Remember, LBM includes a lot of other things besides muscle: organs, bones, connective tissue, blood, water, etc. I think a relative newbie could realistically gain 30 pounds of LBM, if they are: 1) underweight to begin with, 2) have not followed a good diet up to now and start eating properly, 3) are still in their natural growth phase (16-25 years old?), etc.
I saw kids who gained 30+ pounds of mostly LBM in 12 weeks of boot camp, because for the first time in their life they actually ate 3 good quality meals, got a decent nights sleep, stopped using recreational drugs, did some exercise and had the factors in place to complete their natural growth cycle which had been stunted up to then by their poor lifestyle.
I saw kids who gained 30+ pounds of mostly LBM in 12 weeks of boot camp, because for the first time in their life they actually ate 3 good quality meals, got a decent nights sleep, stopped using recreational drugs, did some exercise and had the factors in place to complete their natural growth cycle which had been stunted up to then by their poor lifestyle.
I will go back to my contention that at least 95% of people who train do not know what hard training actually is. I have seen people at all levels, from beginners to professional athletes achieve a 20 - 40 lb increase in primarily lean mass over a time frame of 6 - 10 weeks. I have seen it happen on all types of programs, the only constant factor is that the trainee comes into the gym and gets after it.
People can argue things "from a physiological stand point" all they want. Of course it does not change the fact that people are getting these kinds of results as we speak. So obviously things work differently in "the real world" as opposed to in a "physiology book world."
More than anything the results depend upon the individuals ability to push themselves and the environment they are in. (meaning that when they want to quit they are not given that option by coaches or training partners)
The average gym rat has the best potential for great results simply because that is the group that has never trained hard in their life. They think they have, but do not understand the next level of intensity.
As I have stated above it is possible to see people gain 20 - 40 lbs in the course of 6 - 10 weeks. Where do I get this time-frame and numbers? I will use my most recent example. I have a friend who trains athletes out of the gym I work out at. Over the summer (this is an 8 week period for the group we are discussing) 5 of his guys gained 20 - 40 lbs.
I will continue with the fact that these 5 guys were hardly in the perfect conditions. They ate whatever they ended up eating with the simple instructions of "we do not care what you are eating as long as you are eating more of it." A couple of the guys skipped breakfast every day. So I have to say that this type of weight gain is possible even under conditions that are not perfect. The deciding factor was that they showed up to the workouts and did everything the coach said, no questions asked.
I would agree with this. The fast gain of lean mass seems to be the body's response to a sharp increase in training intensity. This response will not last indefinitely. The athlete is now on the "next level" of training. A much faster increase in strength gains will last for about a year or so.
After that gains will be slower.
Though I also believe that there are many times in ones training career that sharp increase in size, power, or strength will be the result. Here are some of them -
- The subject at hand. An increase to what "real" training should be.
- The time when the actual technique sets in and the trainee can feel the groove.
- The time when the trainee learns to use the core and can increase the ability to maintain proper posture under an extremely heavy load.
This is probably not an exhaustive list. They are the three times I have experienced sharp increases in size, power, or strength. They are the times that I have seen others experience sharp increases in results as well.
I am also not saying that achieving these great results are easy. If at least 95% of all trainees do not know or understand what hard training is, then there are 5% or less of the training population who are in the proper mindset to do what it takes to get the great results. These 5% or less represent the people who achieve great things when it comes to training.
I can safely say that science does not support the idea that gaining 20 - 40 lbs in 6 - 10 weeks is possible.
Yet, real life flies in the face of science all the time. If 5 guys who train in the gym I train at accomplished this goal I have to believe that this is not a freakish occurrence. How many people, in how many gyms, in how many cities, are achieving these goals right now.
There is too much that is not yet understood about the human body to rely completely on science. Science is only one tool in the toolbox.
Ok, there's alot about the human body that we don't know. This program seems to be about really shocking the body by doing 20 reps of squats with your 10 rm, making the last 10 reps to be very tough, and act like a bunch of singles without racking the bar. Now, sure, science doesn't back up being able to add 30lbs in 6 weeks, I don't think it's possible either from my biological standpoint. However, we don't know everything about the human body.
We know that in extreme situations, our body can call upon our muscles to do incredible things, like lift a car of a baby and stuff like that, things you normally couldn't do. Could this be something like that? An emergency response to the sudden increase in intensity, a sudden need for adaption that the body will prioritize? I certanly don't have the experience in the field to commend too much, because I have never seen it done, just heard about it.
The only way to find out would be a simple study. Measure BF and weight before have them go through the program on no roids, then measure BF and weight again and see how much was muscle. Now, you would have to use an accurate BF measuring, not calipers or those fancy scales.
You would HAVE to do the BF measuring and not just rely on the eye and say "well he doesn't look much fatter" because something experience has taught me, and that I have heard from others aswell, is that someone going from 12-16 bf won't notice much difference. 12 is lean, but not lean enough that you have a six pack and really defined muscles, 16 isen't that fat either. CT wrote about this in his "The Truth About Bulking" articles on T-nation. So for those who don't know what I mean, check it out.
From the biological standpoint, I guess you would have to know what is needed to make muscle. Muscle is protein, so from that I assume protein synthesis needs to be elevated. We know it can be elevated by training, but by how much? Does this extreme intensity cause an abnormal raise in protein synthesis, and if so, how?
But again, there really is only one way to prove it, try it with a bunch of people who are dedicated and who have people motivating them as they train and test weight and bf before and after. You might have to do this a coupple of times, since obviously, everyone just won't be able to do it (be it mental, or whatever).
One thing I have learned though, both in biology and real life is this: Never unerestimate the body's capability to adapt.
We know that in extreme situations, our body can call upon our muscles to do incredible things, like lift a car of a baby and stuff like that, things you normally couldn't do. Could this be something like that? An emergency response to the sudden increase in intensity, a sudden need for adaption that the body will prioritize? I certanly don't have the experience in the field to commend too much, because I have never seen it done, just heard about it.
The only way to find out would be a simple study. Measure BF and weight before have them go through the program on no roids, then measure BF and weight again and see how much was muscle. Now, you would have to use an accurate BF measuring, not calipers or those fancy scales.
You would HAVE to do the BF measuring and not just rely on the eye and say "well he doesn't look much fatter" because something experience has taught me, and that I have heard from others aswell, is that someone going from 12-16 bf won't notice much difference. 12 is lean, but not lean enough that you have a six pack and really defined muscles, 16 isen't that fat either. CT wrote about this in his "The Truth About Bulking" articles on T-nation. So for those who don't know what I mean, check it out.
From the biological standpoint, I guess you would have to know what is needed to make muscle. Muscle is protein, so from that I assume protein synthesis needs to be elevated. We know it can be elevated by training, but by how much? Does this extreme intensity cause an abnormal raise in protein synthesis, and if so, how?
But again, there really is only one way to prove it, try it with a bunch of people who are dedicated and who have people motivating them as they train and test weight and bf before and after. You might have to do this a coupple of times, since obviously, everyone just won't be able to do it (be it mental, or whatever).
One thing I have learned though, both in biology and real life is this: Never unerestimate the body's capability to adapt.
In a completely untrained person, someone who has lost an extreme amount of muscle mass, or someone chemically-assisted, that kind of muscle gain is possible. Otherwise, you'll put on 20-30 pounds, but a large percentage will be fat.
That said, the core message of Super Squats is intensity, pushing limits, and focusing on one of the most important exercises you can perform.
That said, the core message of Super Squats is intensity, pushing limits, and focusing on one of the most important exercises you can perform.
Isn't the whole point of SuperSquats that you can create the maximum hormonal response with a very short, but very intense workout session? The 20 rep squat is ideal for that because it taxes all body systems maximally: cardio-vascular by pushing to temporary muscle failure and then beyond while putting pressure on the shoulders and rib cage making it difficult to breathe; and the CNS by pushing the largest muscles in the body, requireing support from almost every muscle in the body and adding the psychological threat of being crushed by a large weight pushing down on your back. Therefore the benefit of 20 rep squats is in the maximum stimulation of post exercise hormone release which stimulates increased protien synthesis...
I would rep you again...George.....but I must "spread some around first" LOL.
Great post......
Couldn't agree more, very interesting post, truly enjoyed reading it. Now I need to figure out how to reach that intensity level.
very good post, georgen1.
i would also rep you again but i cannot.
to expand on what karky said, it may be true that some of the weight gained in the 20-40lbs is fat, especially because the trainees are also gaining muscle at the same time.
either way, its still amazing.
the first time i reached an extremely high intensity level was when i joined wrestling and i had not the choice to quit becuase of my own discomfort.
just like georgen said.
and its true that the mental outlook on the lift is the most important.
it was interesting that kark mentioned people doing amazing feats of strength, like a mother lifting a car to rescue a pinned baby(something to do with adrenaline?)
lifting has everything to do with the mind, telling the body that it can/must succeed...im convinced.
thanks everyone for the interesting responses
i would also rep you again but i cannot.
to expand on what karky said, it may be true that some of the weight gained in the 20-40lbs is fat, especially because the trainees are also gaining muscle at the same time.
either way, its still amazing.
the first time i reached an extremely high intensity level was when i joined wrestling and i had not the choice to quit becuase of my own discomfort.
just like georgen said.
and its true that the mental outlook on the lift is the most important.
it was interesting that kark mentioned people doing amazing feats of strength, like a mother lifting a car to rescue a pinned baby(something to do with adrenaline?)
lifting has everything to do with the mind, telling the body that it can/must succeed...im convinced.
thanks everyone for the interesting responses
There is one thing to definately ROCK ON with: throwing "self doubt" in the fricken........trash can........baby! Open up a brand new can of worms!......and rock with it!