Bad shoulder posture.

[timothyparuku]

My shoulder blades are sticking out and my shoulders are rolled forward. An example picture:

then i took a picture of me to show the actual thing:

 

[matt182]

Ok i think this has been discussed recently in another thread however,

Based on the picture and the probable causes the first thing you will be doing are pec stretches, you can use a door way to do this, but make sure your not stretching your shoulder joint instead.

Then you will need to do some back exercise, which would include the traps (mainly the middle fibres), posterior deltoid, cuffs, and rhomboids. Working on your scapular stability (shoulder blades) youll have to learn to retract them and ONLY them to the spine. And dont forget the other muscles...

 

[Adler1983]

Building on what Matt has to say,

A good scapular retraction exercise is to utilize the cable row station. HOwever, instead of rowing, hold the handle normally now squeeze your shoulder blades together (as if you're trying to pinch something between them) hold for a 2 to 3 second count, release and repeat. This will really strengthen those muscles that are needed to hold your shoulders in place properly.

As for the rest of Matt's advice, Ditto. If you can bench press your weight, but can't do 10 - 12 pullups then you're back is far too weak compared to your chest/shoulder strength.

 

[timothyparuku]

Based on the picture and the probable causes the first thing you will be doing are pec stretches, you can use a door way to do this, but make sure your not stretching your shoulder joint instead.

Hmm, I am kind of confused. I looked at pec stretches using doorways and I tried it. I feel it in my back but also in my shoulder. am i stretching my shoulder joints?

Working on your scapular stability (shoulder blades) youll have to learn to retract them and ONLY them to the spine

I dont really understand that line, hmm.

P.s Thanks for the help. Now I know where to start.

 

[theleip]

Tim ignore previous advice and read the following...

Testosterone Nation - Push-Ups, Face Pulls, and Shrugs

 

[Karky]

thats an excellent article! read it. it looks like your scap is rotated downward.

Leip, it looks like its downward rotated, but also protracted. If the scap is both, are the rhombes then a problem? If the rhombes were tight, wouldnt the scap be retracted as it should, but downward rotated? Just wondering if the rhombes always is a problem with downward rotation, if it is, then how can the scap be both protracted and downward rotated?

i know there are other muscles than the rhombes involved, but if the rhombes are weak the traps would have to be pretty strong to keep the shoulderblades back, and then the scap wouldnt downward rotate.

 

[matt182]

Tim ignore previous advice and read the following...

Testosterone Nation - Push-Ups, Face Pulls, and Shrugs

Actually have a read over again theleip, If you seem to get your knowledge from internet sites such as t nation then i wont be looking at any of your advice again :yelrotflmao: . Not to mention some of the articles statements and in particular diagrams inaccurate.

Id like you see what a physio would have him do,
im sure i could take a guess..

 

[theleip]

thats an excellent article! read it. it looks like your scap is rotated downward.

Leip, it looks like its downward rotated, but also protracted. If the scap is both, are the rhombes then a problem? If the rhombes were tight, wouldnt the scap be retracted as it should, but downward rotated? Just wondering if the rhombes always is a problem with downward rotation, if it is, then how can the scap be both protracted and downward rotated?

i know there are other muscles than the rhombes involved, but if the rhombes are weak the traps would have to be pretty strong to keep the shoulderblades back, and then the scap wouldnt downward rotate.

Karky this is more of a case of the rhombes and the traps being weak, not tight.

In the picture he appears to be stiff through the t3- t10 and has
-downward rotation
-is protracted
-and anteriorly tilted

In this case it is not the rhomboids that are the only problem but lack of throacic mobility and scapulo-thoracic stability.

The glenohumeral joint has limited range and instability causing a chain effecting the scapula. This leads to an unstable scapulo-thoracic and shoulder misalignment and pain as well as weakness in the rhomboids and lower traps.

Another great article to look at would be Boyles Joint-to-Joint training (page 2)
Testosterone Nation - A Joint-by-Joint Approach to Training

Some great movements there for stability improvement and strengthening the lower traps and rhomboids.

 

[theleip]

Actually have a read over again theleip, If you seem to get your knowledge from internet sites such as t nation then i wont be looking at any of your advice again :yelrotflmao: . Not to mention some of the articles statements and in particular diagrams inaccurate.

Id like you see what a physio would have him do,
im sure i could take a guess..

First off I get my knowledge from a lot of sources though I see no problem in one of them being one of the best in this country mobility correction. I am sorry I didn't realize you were a specialist in that area.

There is nothing at all wrong with any of the diagrams or statements I would like to add.

Your theory is that the pectorals were too tight causing the shoulders to draw forward. While this can be a case due to rotation and tilt of what was presented in the picture it leads to stand more for lack of Scapulo-Thoracic Joint stability. Meaning that some simple pec doorway stretches aren't going to do it.

When you have weak stabilizer muscles in mid-lower traps and limited joint range movement you have to attack at more angles than this, get some good education and have a proper warm up program and include the right movements in your training design.

I am sorry if you ego is taking blow but I post for the posters, not myself.

Added I did not say that your advice was all wrong either, I was simply stating that the OP check out a great layout since he stated having a hard time understanding what was previously posted.

 

[timothyparuku]

I read the articles and I think they're really useful. Thanks. On a side note though, i feel like my right scapula is waay more flexible or more easily moveable than my left.My left shoulder/back feels overall more stiff. Also when i do rows, i noticed the same weight i did with my right, its hard for me to do with my left. Does that mean theirs an unbalance?

 

[matt182]

There is nothing at all wrong with any of the diagrams or statements I would like to add.

Sorry but if you knew the basic attatchments of these muscles you would realise they are quite inaccurate.

Your theory is that the pectorals were too tight causing the shoulders to draw forward. While this can be a case due to rotation and tilt of what was presented in the picture it leads to stand more for lack of Scapulo-Thoracic Joint stability. Meaning that some simple pec doorway stretches aren't going to do it.

It was not a theory nor explanation for the cause but rather a result of the poor shoulder alignment. If your telling me the pecs dont get tight when the shoulders are rounded forward and have lax back muscles then broaden your scope for sites such as t nation.

When you have weak stabilizer muscles in mid-lower traps and limited joint range movement you have to attack at more angles than this, get some good education and have a proper warm up program and include the right movements in your training design.

Good angles? great explanation, perhaps your need to get proper eduction. If you noticed i payed particular attention to scapular stabilisation and set up a start & foundation for someone to elaborate futher not to dismiss needlessly and arrogantly.

 

[bipennate]

Sorry but if you knew the basic attatchments of these muscles you would realise they are quite inaccurate.

Which diagrams are you objecting to?

 

[theleip]

Sorry but if you knew the basic attatchments of these muscles you would realise they are quite inaccurate.

I would really like for you to point out what in that article was wrong, would LOVE to hear it.

It was not a theory nor explanation for the cause but rather a result of the poor shoulder alignment. If your telling me the pecs dont get tight when the shoulders are rounded forward and have lax back muscles then broaden your scope for sites such as t nation.

One, I never said the pecs couldn't be tight in fact I stated that is a cause. I also stated though that the picture he posted suggested a leaning more towards the inner stability that I was discussing. To be honest our view here is not all that different. I am simply stating putting more importance on a different area and feel that pec stretching isn't the way to go here.

Two, I am not sure what beef you have against T-nation but perhaps you could read a few articles there, ignore the forums and advertising and see that there is some really solid material. If you can't see that then I guess go back to a text book and I will continue to see every growing progress in great coaches, doctors, trainers, and nutritionist and maybe pick up a few tricks to help relay complicated science to people in a simple way. Which in my opinion is part of what makes t-nation an excellent resource for both professionals and layman.

Good angles? great explanation, perhaps your need to get proper eduction. If you noticed i payed particular attention to scapular stabilization and set up a start & foundation for someone to elaborate further not to dismiss needlessly and arrogantly.

Maybe it is my lack of education here but I don't even understand what you are arguing. Are you arguing the fact that I said you need to attack shoulder mobility and posture from many sides (angles)? There is something wrong with trying to better postural distortions and movements with a combination of warm ups, stretching and resistance training methods point to fix that particular problem?

The original poster came back and stated things after your post that 1)suggested he didn't understand the previous posts, and 2)suggested that pec stretching wasn't really going to cut it. I simply gave him a detailed, with video and pictures, article to read to help him understand better how to attack his shoulder problems.

 

[matt182]

In the second diagram, Im not sure if its meant to be the teres major muscle or serratus anterior either way doesnt truly represent the muscle. I know its just a basic diagram but still. And the sketch in the middle of the article is quite dismal, on the scapula it is suppose to attatch anteriorly on the medial surface and proximally on 1-8 ribs.

But anyway, I never said stretching the pecs was the solution, but would help.

Im bored of this so im outta this thread,
next time try not to treat other peoples valids posts in such disregard.

 

[Danger_Dave]

next time try not to treat other peoples valids posts in such disregard.

How seldom we weigh our neighbors in the same balance as ourselves. ~Thomas à Kempis

 

[bipennate]

In the second diagram, Im not sure if its meant to be the teres major muscle or serratus anterior either way doesnt truly represent the muscle. I know its just a basic diagram but still.

It's a cartoon diagram that neither of the authors produced...and the line of pull is accurate, which is the important part of that diagram

And the sketch in the middle of the article is quite dismal, on the scapula it is suppose to attatch anteriorly on the medial surface and proximally on 1-8 ribs.

And you do realize that in the drawing, seen from the P/A view, the origin fibers of the SA is hidden by the scapula itself, right? It's not possible to see the origin from that angle, except maybe the most proximal fiber insertion at the medial border, which really wasn't the point: the picture is depicting the antagonist nature of the SA and rhomboids in protraction and retraction respectively, which it does very well.

So you mean to tell me that you're damning an article written by two of the better and more knowledgeable performance enhancement and clinical rehab specialists around because you didn't like their drawings? I know that you've declared your boredom of this thread, but I'd still like to hear about which statements in the article are innacurate, as well.

 

[matt182]

In regards to the article, i wasnt damning it but rather just didnt like it how it begun portraying the rotator cuff as useless. I agree with you that the authors are respectable and such and didnt produce the diagrams.

 

[Karky]

their not saying the rotator cuff is useless, their saying to just train your cuffs is like cutting weed if the scap is the probem, it will grow right back up. You need to attack the problem by the root, correct the cause of the problem. Its much like focusing all your time on correcting upper back and shoulder posture if you have a severe pelvic tilt. The pelvic tilt is probobly causing the upper back and shoulder problems, if you dont correct it, it wont go away.

 

[Karky]

thanks alot for the help Leigh. I read about wall slides in that article, which i have read about before and am doing. But when i read about it, i learned it as an activation movement for the lower traps, ive been focusing on really squeezing them while doing the downward movement. While now it was presented as more of a mobility movement.. is it both? It says you probobly cant go all the way without pain, i think i can.. though i cant find a wall without pictures or some **** in this house to try it now

 

[theleip]

Karky, it can be both. The less of a problem you have the better you can perform the movement, so for you there may be little to no pain or full range of movement.

I am thinking you are kidding about the obstructions on your wall, it not def take the pics down while performing the movement.

I am going to pretty much just re-hash two key points on what Boyle is saying here...

The key to the Wall Slide is that the shoulder blades remain retracted and depressed while the gleno-humeral joint attempts to move the arms overhead.

the forearms must slide up in contact with the wall while the shoulder blades stay down and back.

So make sure that your forearms aren't jutting out and that you blades are really back and down on that wall.

Make sure as you are against the wall that you are not in a lean, and pushing yourself outward with your back.

You also might find Karky that you are doing yourself a favor by choosing an OLY style lifting program if having sholder issues over more standard pressing practices and this could be a big helper if you are having more improvement in that area.

Here is a snippet of an interview with Bill Hartman talking about Oly lifting and shoulder stability.

BH:The primary areas that I see with shoulders even in decent training programs are relatively weak lower traps and internal shoulder rotation range of motion issues.

You find that Olympic lifters who do overhead squats and snatch grip overhead work have very strong scapular muscles. The problem is that most folks sit on their asses to much or have postural issues that preclude the overhead stuff. Thus, you need to do these. Are you doing any directed at serratus anterior?

CB: So what are your thoughts on overhead pressing?

BH:
After talking with Dale Buchberger who does a great deal of lecturing on shoulder issues (good video at BTW) and doing a bit of follow-up, I've started to shift away from a great deal of true overhead pressing for my clients(maybe I'm just getting old?). It certainly puts a great deal of repetitive strain on the weakest structures of the gleno-humeral joint.

Obviously, if you have a competitive weightlifter or strongman competitor, you have to do them in training.

The drawback for not doing them I've found is the necessity to do more direct work to the scapular stabilizers like low traps and serratus anterior and the trunk. I do use a lot of PNF patterns which does require an overhead reach, but the direction of loading is more directly into the G-H joint rather than on the anterior-inferior capsule.

Another way around the issue a bit is to use jerks rather than true presses. You still have issues with the loading of weaker structures overhead but you bypass some of the loading through the mid range of motion. I still have a couple of guys and a gal that do jerks and power snatches, but they have never had any shoulder problems and the loads are nowhere near maximal.

I wouldn't do any overhead pressing with anyone with a history of shoulder pain, history of repetitive throwing (pitchers and quarterbacks), someone who compensates for a lack of flexion/abduction with lumbar extension, someone who lacks sufficient upward scapular rotation(or outer depending on the way you were taught), or someone with a tight posterior capsule/tight external rotators.

There's certainly more detail we can get into if you like. There will certainly be some that can overhead press and never have any shoulder issues. They are few and far between because of the need for adequate range of motion and stability. Even the push press and jerks may cause problems depending on what condition your shoulders are in and technical issues.

Like I said before there are some who will be able to do just about anything without difficulty.

CB:What impact do compound exercises and Olympic Lifts have on the shoulder joint?

BH:
I wish more therapists would see the advantage in the big muscle approach (the article just came out in JOSPT so hopefully someone will read it).

I would certainly prefer to be able to do more overhead work because it saves time and is just plain more effective, but most of my people don't have the scapular mobility and most have tight posterior capsules and tight external rotators. I just won't load shoulders like that. There's usually an anterior instability as well, so overhead work loads the anterior/inferior capsule making that worse. Then the biceps tendon is rotated posterior to the most superior aspect of the glenoid. Then you have another anterior force into the anterior/inferior capsule based on the direction of the tendon pull.

I have a kid now whose humeral head shifts forward so much that in full shoulder flexion or abduction you can see his humeral head push forward in the axilla. He's wondering why he has an impingement and pain with overhead work!?

The nice thing about Olympic lifts is that you don't load the shoulder so much in the stretch position because the leg-drive. Of course, if there are any shoulder issues, I focus on pull variations. The "pull under" can cause one helluva impingement.