theleip said:
From the article:
SS cardio already mobilizes fat. It isn't until it gets to anaerobic sprint level that it goes to primarily carbs.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/kurilla1.htm
Last edited:
When should I run?
- Thread starter Klipse
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From the article:
SS cardio already mobilizes fat. It isn't until it gets to anaerobic sprint level that it goes to primarily carbs.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/kurilla1.htm
buzz said:
I think you are over simplifying it. People want to maximize their fat loss. It's not that simple.
For example, many studies show that HIIT cardio, even though burning less calories overall, is more effective long term than medium intensity cardio in burning fat.
I still have yet to see links to studies done on the subject of fasted cardio and its effectiveness in burning fat. All I've seen is articles. can anyone dig something up? my internet access is limited here while im at work. They block like everything (thank god not this site
).3500 cals over or under maintanence= 1lb of fat lost or gained
so you train fasted every day and lose a lot of fat but you eat 500cals over for a week.gain 1lb of fat
so you train unfasted every day and eat 500cals over for a week .gain 1lb of fat.
if you do both senarios and eat 500cals under you will lose 1lb of fat
thats not oversimplifying thats physics fact.
so you train fasted every day and lose a lot of fat but you eat 500cals over for a week.gain 1lb of fat
so you train unfasted every day and eat 500cals over for a week .gain 1lb of fat.
if you do both senarios and eat 500cals under you will lose 1lb of fat
thats not oversimplifying thats physics fact.
Cardio fuelling protocol
I am aware there will be different view points on the following subject of how to fuel for cardio but I have given some general guidelines. They are by no means definitive in terms of portion size or situation but give a starting point for those in need, below outlined is a general protocol for pre and post cardio fuelling in relation to goals. There are some case where fuelling will be required during the sessions. This strategy is generally reserved for longer sessions or those based on sporting performance
AM steady State Fat Burning
Ok, the general point of steady state cardio is to strip body fat and tap into stored fat reserves. For this environment to be created insulin levels need to be kept low (i.e. avoiding ingesting carbs before hand). Due to the session being possibly catabolic (breaking down of muscle) I would advocate a protein only meal before hand. For gents c30g of whey and 20g, in water for women assuming the sessions is going to be <40 minutes and around 65% of MHR.
Alternatives could be L glutamine to 10g or BCAAs to 5 grams
It seems on evidence; whey is they desired choice although if the intensity of the session is low enough, the trainer can abandon any pre fuelling. This also applies to AAS users although there is a requirement for PWO fuelling here in all scenarios
PWO fuelling will generally be a carb rich breakfast to include protein. Obviously stats and goals will determine the portion size of the following meal but 50g of oats and 40g of lean protein would be a starting point for those on a cut and calorie restricted diet
AM (pre breakfast) HIIT for fat loss
I am not a fan of this potentially catabolic method of un fuelled cardio. Many will disagree but the harsh nature of the session heavily relies on CHO to fuel the efforts. I would suggest you could get away with a protein only meal, as outlined above, but ultimately a small carb meal before hand would be beneficial along with your protein. This will aid performance, lower the chances of a catabolic environment and allow EPOC to be the calorie killer after the session rather than calories burned during what is in effect, a very short session
PWO fuelling is similar to that above. Carb up, again using your discretion and adding a lean protein source. Follow general diet protocol thereafter. (i.e. following meal will be 2-3 hours down the track)
AM HIIT for performance
If you are an athlete or sports man performance will be key instead of fat loss. Be more liberal with carbohydrates before and after training sessions to ensure optimum performance and recovery. Again add lean protein source such as whey or egg whites to both pre and PWO meals but carbs are king here
Steady state for sporting performance AM
In this scenario body fat will not be an issue. Therefore carbohydrate intake before hand will be key. As intensity increases and duration, the body will rely more and more on carbs to fuel the effort before glycogen is depleted and fat becomes the main source of fuel, along with amino acids. A sports drink may also be used during the session if it exceeds 45 minutes and glycogen levels drop. Afterwards more carbs will be ingested with a small amount of protein. Possible pre work out meals could be oats and a small serving of whey. Lucozade or dextrose/maltodextrin can be consumed during the effort and a similar drink with small protein serving after the session. For athletes concerned with sporting performance carbs play a larger role than protein, this should be reflected in the meal choice of the athlete. The ratios of each can be jigged to suit length of session, stats and whole diet.
Steady State Cardio after weight training for fat loss
This is a method chosen by many who have limited time. The general protocol will always be weights first, followed by c30g of whey protein in water then the cardio session. On completion of the cardio session I would advocate the use of both whey protein and dextrose. Some may wish to leave the dextrose out in favor of consuming CHO in the following meal. If you wish to do this, ensure a slower burning carb is ingested to replenish glycogen one hour later after c30g whey. If you are performing this session late at night, still make sure a carb rich meal is consumed. The likelihood of overspill, and as a result body fat, is minimal in this situation. Don’t go to bed on empty!
HIIT after weights for fat loss
I wouldn’t do it. HIIT is all about the EPOC. EPOC will be sufficiently produced by a hard weights session. So do your HIIT at another time. Nuff said on that one
Steady State cardio in the afternoon for fat loss
For this no pre fuelling is required. My protocol would be to consume a higher fat based meal, lower carb and high protein meal in the meal before hand. This would generally take place 1.5-2hrs prior. Carry out 30-40 minutes training leading up to your following meal. Consume this meal after your session. An example being session starts at 4.20pm, meal at 5pm to contain medium carbs and lean protein (pre work out meal would be 2-2.30pm0. Again ensure adequate carb intake but not so much you defeat the object of creating a calorie deficit
HIIT in the afternoon for fat loss
Pretty much the same as above. Don’t specifically fuel before hand for it but ensure your meal is consumed after the training whether it is in the form of liquid or solids. Again slower releasing carbs for fat loss is fine combined with your lean protein source
PM Cardio for sporting performance.
Fuel up pre cardio, this is a big must. One hour before with slow burning carbohydrates such as fibrous veg, oats or wholegrain. Do not buy into the whole hype of sports drinks BEFORE WORK OUT they will lead to an energy crash if relied upon as the sole carb intake prior to training. These drinks (or home made ones from water and dextrose) can be used during (assuming length or intensity warrants it) and afterwards. There will be a requirement for a recovery drink afterwards which will be carb rich and contain a small amount of protein. If you are combining weights and cardio for sporting performance, do the cardio first if it’s the mainstay of your training, consume a sports drink with a small amount of protein and move onto weights, then again a carb drink and protein after the whole session. Continue normal diet protocol on completion which will generally be high CHO medium high protein and low fat
PM HIIT for sporting performance.
As above, in short. Carb intake high, no requirement for drink during but certainly afterwards to be high carbs and medium protein. Again all measurements will be determined by stats and goals and diet as a whole but ensure adequate PWO and PPWO meals for recovery
As stated at the beginning of the post
These are rough guidelines and it will be up to you on how much you take on board in relation to stats, goals and diet as a whole
I am aware there will be different view points on the following subject of how to fuel for cardio but I have given some general guidelines. They are by no means definitive in terms of portion size or situation but give a starting point for those in need, below outlined is a general protocol for pre and post cardio fuelling in relation to goals. There are some case where fuelling will be required during the sessions. This strategy is generally reserved for longer sessions or those based on sporting performance
AM steady State Fat Burning
Ok, the general point of steady state cardio is to strip body fat and tap into stored fat reserves. For this environment to be created insulin levels need to be kept low (i.e. avoiding ingesting carbs before hand). Due to the session being possibly catabolic (breaking down of muscle) I would advocate a protein only meal before hand. For gents c30g of whey and 20g, in water for women assuming the sessions is going to be <40 minutes and around 65% of MHR.
Alternatives could be L glutamine to 10g or BCAAs to 5 grams
It seems on evidence; whey is they desired choice although if the intensity of the session is low enough, the trainer can abandon any pre fuelling. This also applies to AAS users although there is a requirement for PWO fuelling here in all scenarios
PWO fuelling will generally be a carb rich breakfast to include protein. Obviously stats and goals will determine the portion size of the following meal but 50g of oats and 40g of lean protein would be a starting point for those on a cut and calorie restricted diet
AM (pre breakfast) HIIT for fat loss
I am not a fan of this potentially catabolic method of un fuelled cardio. Many will disagree but the harsh nature of the session heavily relies on CHO to fuel the efforts. I would suggest you could get away with a protein only meal, as outlined above, but ultimately a small carb meal before hand would be beneficial along with your protein. This will aid performance, lower the chances of a catabolic environment and allow EPOC to be the calorie killer after the session rather than calories burned during what is in effect, a very short session
PWO fuelling is similar to that above. Carb up, again using your discretion and adding a lean protein source. Follow general diet protocol thereafter. (i.e. following meal will be 2-3 hours down the track)
AM HIIT for performance
If you are an athlete or sports man performance will be key instead of fat loss. Be more liberal with carbohydrates before and after training sessions to ensure optimum performance and recovery. Again add lean protein source such as whey or egg whites to both pre and PWO meals but carbs are king here
Steady state for sporting performance AM
In this scenario body fat will not be an issue. Therefore carbohydrate intake before hand will be key. As intensity increases and duration, the body will rely more and more on carbs to fuel the effort before glycogen is depleted and fat becomes the main source of fuel, along with amino acids. A sports drink may also be used during the session if it exceeds 45 minutes and glycogen levels drop. Afterwards more carbs will be ingested with a small amount of protein. Possible pre work out meals could be oats and a small serving of whey. Lucozade or dextrose/maltodextrin can be consumed during the effort and a similar drink with small protein serving after the session. For athletes concerned with sporting performance carbs play a larger role than protein, this should be reflected in the meal choice of the athlete. The ratios of each can be jigged to suit length of session, stats and whole diet.
Steady State Cardio after weight training for fat loss
This is a method chosen by many who have limited time. The general protocol will always be weights first, followed by c30g of whey protein in water then the cardio session. On completion of the cardio session I would advocate the use of both whey protein and dextrose. Some may wish to leave the dextrose out in favor of consuming CHO in the following meal. If you wish to do this, ensure a slower burning carb is ingested to replenish glycogen one hour later after c30g whey. If you are performing this session late at night, still make sure a carb rich meal is consumed. The likelihood of overspill, and as a result body fat, is minimal in this situation. Don’t go to bed on empty!
HIIT after weights for fat loss
I wouldn’t do it. HIIT is all about the EPOC. EPOC will be sufficiently produced by a hard weights session. So do your HIIT at another time. Nuff said on that one
Steady State cardio in the afternoon for fat loss
For this no pre fuelling is required. My protocol would be to consume a higher fat based meal, lower carb and high protein meal in the meal before hand. This would generally take place 1.5-2hrs prior. Carry out 30-40 minutes training leading up to your following meal. Consume this meal after your session. An example being session starts at 4.20pm, meal at 5pm to contain medium carbs and lean protein (pre work out meal would be 2-2.30pm0. Again ensure adequate carb intake but not so much you defeat the object of creating a calorie deficit
HIIT in the afternoon for fat loss
Pretty much the same as above. Don’t specifically fuel before hand for it but ensure your meal is consumed after the training whether it is in the form of liquid or solids. Again slower releasing carbs for fat loss is fine combined with your lean protein source
PM Cardio for sporting performance.
Fuel up pre cardio, this is a big must. One hour before with slow burning carbohydrates such as fibrous veg, oats or wholegrain. Do not buy into the whole hype of sports drinks BEFORE WORK OUT they will lead to an energy crash if relied upon as the sole carb intake prior to training. These drinks (or home made ones from water and dextrose) can be used during (assuming length or intensity warrants it) and afterwards. There will be a requirement for a recovery drink afterwards which will be carb rich and contain a small amount of protein. If you are combining weights and cardio for sporting performance, do the cardio first if it’s the mainstay of your training, consume a sports drink with a small amount of protein and move onto weights, then again a carb drink and protein after the whole session. Continue normal diet protocol on completion which will generally be high CHO medium high protein and low fat
PM HIIT for sporting performance.
As above, in short. Carb intake high, no requirement for drink during but certainly afterwards to be high carbs and medium protein. Again all measurements will be determined by stats and goals and diet as a whole but ensure adequate PWO and PPWO meals for recovery
As stated at the beginning of the post
These are rough guidelines and it will be up to you on how much you take on board in relation to stats, goals and diet as a whole
very consise and complete
buzz said:
hahah.. Buzz..
thats physics fact?
that IS so over simplified. Not every body burns or stores fat under the same circumstances. This equation could be right in some situations, but it could be way off in many other situations. There is more to fat storage than just calories.
what macronutrient ratio is this "fact" based on?
what about gaining muscle?
what if used to eat like crap, then i started eating healthy yet i increased my calories. Would I not possibly lose fat?
In addition to measuring fat oxidation during exercise, most acute effect trials look at fat oxidation at the 3 to 6 hr mark postexercise [2]. Fat oxidation during exercise tends to be higher in low-intensity treatments, but postexercise fat oxidation tends to be higher in high-intensity treatments. For example, Phelain’s team compared fat oxidation in at 3hrs postexercise of 75% VO2 max versus the same kcals burned at 50% [3]. Fat oxidation was insignificantly higher during exercise for the 50% group, but was significantly higher for the 75% group 3 hours postexercise. Lee’s team compared, in college males, the thermogenic and lipolytic effects of exercise pre-fueled with milk + glucose on high versus low-intensity training [4]. Predictably, pre-exercise intake of the milk/glucose solution increased excess postexercise oxygen consumption (EPOC, aka residual thermogenesis) significantly more than the fasted control group in both cases. The high-intensity treatment had more fat oxidation during the recovery period than the low intensity treatment. This implicates pre-fueled high-intensity training’s potential role in optimizing fat reduction while simultaneously setting the stage for quicker recovery.
its thermogenics mate no matter who you are 3500cals will add 1lb of fatniceone said:
its what you eat over 24hrs that counts not fasted or unfasted cardio.
24-hr effects come closer to reality
You can call it Murphy’s Law, but the promise of greater fat oxidation seen during and in the early postexercise periods of lower intensity cardio disappears when the effects are measured over 24 hours. Melanson’s research team was perhaps the first to break the redundancy of studies that only compared effects within a few hours postexercise [5]. In a design involving an even mix of lean, healthy men & women aged 20-45, identical caloric expenditures of 40% VO2 max was compared with 70% VO2 max. Result? No difference in net fat oxidation between the low & high-intensity groups at the 24 hr mark.
Saris & Schrauwen conducted a similar study on obese males using a high-intensity interval protocol versus a low-intensity linear one [6]. There was no difference in fat oxidation between high & low intensity treatments at 24 hrs. In addition, the high-intensity group actually maintained a lower respiratory quotient in postexercise. This means that their fat oxidation was higher than the low-intensity group the rest of the day following the training bout, thus the evening out the end results at 24 hrs.
LET THE RESEARCH SPEAK
Carbohydrate ingestion during low-intensity exercise reduces fat oxidation
As far as 3 decades back, Ahlborg’s team observed that carb ingestion during low-intensity exercise (25-45% VO2 max) reduced fat oxidation compared to fasted levels [15]. More recently, De Glisezinski’s team observed similar results in trained men at 50% VO2 max [16]. Efforts to determine the mechanism behind this phenomenon have been made. Coyle’s team observed that at 50% VO2 max, carbohydrate availability can directly regulate fat oxidation by coordinating hyperinsulinemia to inhibit long-chain fatty acid transport into mitochondria [17].
Carbohydrate’s effect on fat oxidation during moderate-intensity exercise depends on conditioning level
Civitarese’s team found glucose ingestion during exercise to blunt lipolysis via decreasing the gene expression involved in fat oxidation in untrained men [18]. Wallis’ team saw suppressed fat oxidation in moderately trained men & women when glucose was ingested during exercise [19].
In contrast to the above trials on beginning and intermediate trainees, Coyle’s team repeatedly showed that carb ingestion during moderate-intensity (65-75% VO2 max) does not reduce fat oxidation during the first 120 min of exercise in trained men [20,21]. Interestingly, the intensity margin proximal to where fat oxidation is highest was unaffected by carb ingestion, and remained so for the first 2 hours of exercise.
Horowitz’ team examined the effect of a during-training solution of high-glycemic carbs on moderately trained men undergoing either low intensity exercise (25% VO2 max) or high-moderate intensity (68% VO2 max) [22]. Similar results to Coyle’s work were seen. Subjects completed a 2-hr cycling bout, and ingested the carb solution at 30, 60, and 90 minutes in. In the low-intensity treatment, fat oxidation was not reduced below fasted-state control group’s levels until 80-90 min of exercise. In the 68% group, no difference in fat oxidation was seen whether subjects were fasted or fed throughout the trial.
Further supporting the evidence in favor of fed cardio in trained men, Febbraio’s team investigated the effects of carb ingestion pre & during training in easily one of the best-designed trials on this topic [23]. Subjects exercised for 2 hrs at an intensity level of 63% VO2 max, which is now known as the point of maximal fat oxidation during exercise [1]. Result? Pre & during-training carbs increased performance - and there was no difference in total fat oxidation between the fasted and fed subjects. Despite the elevated insulin levels in the carb-fueled groups, there was no difference in fat availability or fat utilization.
Summing up the research findings
• At low intensities (25-50% VO2 max), carbs during exercise reduce fat oxidation compared to fasted trainees.
• At moderate intensities (63-68% VO2 max) carbs during exercise may reduce fat oxidation in untrained subjects, but do not reduce fat oxidation in trained subjects for at least the first 80-120 minutes of exercise.
• Carbohydrate during exercise spares liver glycogen, which is among the most critical factors for anticatabolism during hypocaloric & other conditions of metabolic stress. This protective hepatic effect is absent in fasted cardio.
• At the established intensity level of peak fat oxidation (~63% VO2 max), carbohydrate increases performance without any suppression of fat oxidation in trained subjects.
Carbohydrate ingestion during low-intensity exercise reduces fat oxidation
As far as 3 decades back, Ahlborg’s team observed that carb ingestion during low-intensity exercise (25-45% VO2 max) reduced fat oxidation compared to fasted levels [15]. More recently, De Glisezinski’s team observed similar results in trained men at 50% VO2 max [16]. Efforts to determine the mechanism behind this phenomenon have been made. Coyle’s team observed that at 50% VO2 max, carbohydrate availability can directly regulate fat oxidation by coordinating hyperinsulinemia to inhibit long-chain fatty acid transport into mitochondria [17].
Carbohydrate’s effect on fat oxidation during moderate-intensity exercise depends on conditioning level
Civitarese’s team found glucose ingestion during exercise to blunt lipolysis via decreasing the gene expression involved in fat oxidation in untrained men [18]. Wallis’ team saw suppressed fat oxidation in moderately trained men & women when glucose was ingested during exercise [19].
In contrast to the above trials on beginning and intermediate trainees, Coyle’s team repeatedly showed that carb ingestion during moderate-intensity (65-75% VO2 max) does not reduce fat oxidation during the first 120 min of exercise in trained men [20,21]. Interestingly, the intensity margin proximal to where fat oxidation is highest was unaffected by carb ingestion, and remained so for the first 2 hours of exercise.
Horowitz’ team examined the effect of a during-training solution of high-glycemic carbs on moderately trained men undergoing either low intensity exercise (25% VO2 max) or high-moderate intensity (68% VO2 max) [22]. Similar results to Coyle’s work were seen. Subjects completed a 2-hr cycling bout, and ingested the carb solution at 30, 60, and 90 minutes in. In the low-intensity treatment, fat oxidation was not reduced below fasted-state control group’s levels until 80-90 min of exercise. In the 68% group, no difference in fat oxidation was seen whether subjects were fasted or fed throughout the trial.
Further supporting the evidence in favor of fed cardio in trained men, Febbraio’s team investigated the effects of carb ingestion pre & during training in easily one of the best-designed trials on this topic [23]. Subjects exercised for 2 hrs at an intensity level of 63% VO2 max, which is now known as the point of maximal fat oxidation during exercise [1]. Result? Pre & during-training carbs increased performance - and there was no difference in total fat oxidation between the fasted and fed subjects. Despite the elevated insulin levels in the carb-fueled groups, there was no difference in fat availability or fat utilization.
Summing up the research findings
• At low intensities (25-50% VO2 max), carbs during exercise reduce fat oxidation compared to fasted trainees.
• At moderate intensities (63-68% VO2 max) carbs during exercise may reduce fat oxidation in untrained subjects, but do not reduce fat oxidation in trained subjects for at least the first 80-120 minutes of exercise.
• Carbohydrate during exercise spares liver glycogen, which is among the most critical factors for anticatabolism during hypocaloric & other conditions of metabolic stress. This protective hepatic effect is absent in fasted cardio.
• At the established intensity level of peak fat oxidation (~63% VO2 max), carbohydrate increases performance without any suppression of fat oxidation in trained subjects.
WHAT!?!?11!
do you actually think that 3500 (calories -- again completely subjective because we are not even talking about ratios, frequency etc..) will have the same effect on someone who is 120 lbs at 7% BF as someone who is 230 at 12%
Your studies don't even correlate to your argument. wtf?
congratulations on your cutting and pasting abilities by the way
Do yourself a big favour and read the DISCUSSION section of the page you took your response to me from.
do you actually think that 3500 (calories -- again completely subjective because we are not even talking about ratios, frequency etc..) will have the same effect on someone who is 120 lbs at 7% BF as someone who is 230 at 12%
Your studies don't even correlate to your argument. wtf?
congratulations on your cutting and pasting abilities by the way
Do yourself a big favour and read the DISCUSSION section of the page you took your response to me from.
If you were to burn 1 lb of fat you would expend 3500 calories,
but burning 3500 calories does not mean you have lost 1 lb of fat.
If you could do cardio in such a way that you didn't enter a catabolic state and burned ONLY fat and did so long enough to burn 3500 calories, THEN you would lose 1 lb of fat because 1 lb of fat= 3500 calories. I understand that.
but burning 3500 calories does not mean you have lost 1 lb of fat.
If you could do cardio in such a way that you didn't enter a catabolic state and burned ONLY fat and did so long enough to burn 3500 calories, THEN you would lose 1 lb of fat because 1 lb of fat= 3500 calories. I understand that.
niceone said:
Exactly, or put simpler...what would happen if you ate a whole bunch of simple carbs before you did your cardio? You would burn all kinds of calories...but how many of those calories would be coming directly from your fat stores, probably NONE of them.
Your body wants the simplest amount of work to produce energy. Of course its easier for your body to break down the carbs for energy so it wouldnt even touch fat stores. The converse of this is there is nothing in your stomach, therefor you would burn more FAT. Therein lies the concept behind fasted cardio.
Burning calories and burning fat are NOT the same thing
how many times if you train fasted your body burns fat while you train,but the rest of the day it burns glycogen.
if you train unfasted your body burns glycogen while you train,but the rest of the day burns fat.
same effect over 24hrs so why train fasted
niceone if you eat 500cals a day under maintanence..ie..
maintanence is 3500cals a day you eat 3000cals a day you will lose 1lb of fat a week..if you eat 4000cals you will gain 1lb of fat
Repeating your same argument over and over does not support your 'claims'.
You need to really understand something, there is more to nutrition than calories.
Say I eat 3500 cals okay.. then I remove a bunch of protein and carbs and just add a bunch of saturated fat to fill the gap but I am consuming 500 cals below maintainence. Would I still lose fat? Now think REALLY hard about your argument here. Does your argument hold any ground?
Please stop throwing your hands up and asking how many times you have to repeat yourself. All you have done is proven that you are good at reading something and regurgitating it without truly understanding what you are saying.
You need to really understand something, there is more to nutrition than calories.
Say I eat 3500 cals okay.. then I remove a bunch of protein and carbs and just add a bunch of saturated fat to fill the gap but I am consuming 500 cals below maintainence. Would I still lose fat? Now think REALLY hard about your argument here. Does your argument hold any ground?
Please stop throwing your hands up and asking how many times you have to repeat yourself. All you have done is proven that you are good at reading something and regurgitating it without truly understanding what you are saying.
of course you would lose fat.. if you ate 3500 cals of celery or 3500 cals of fat its still 3500calsniceone said:
now if we are talking about health then thats a different matter
i am saying if you eat under maintanence you will lose weight ,but you must eat protein,carbs,fats,to stay healthy and retain muscle.
by training fasted you can not trick your body into burning more fat it will just store it some other way.its what you eat over the day that counts if that sounds simple thats because it is.
the human body is the most efficeint (lazy)mechanism in the world
fat 9cals per gramniceone said:
protein 4cals per gram
carbs 4cals per gram
take all these wporkout how many cals you need a day eat under =weightloss
eat over=weightgain
how fast your metabolism is,is totaly irrelivant
you need about 12cals per lb bodyweight to survive then you take into acount your exercise expenditure and that is your maintanence level.