What is your diet?

How many grams of protein per 1lb of lean body mass do you need , in your view, if you are NOT on a cutting diet, but rather, you are on a maintenance or bulking diet ?

carbs and fat are the most efficient form of supplying atp to the body, with such energy available your body is more efficient in muscle repair, but the idea is to lose fat not to gain muscle, so your body needs atp from somewhere and if there is a lack of glucose, and a lean 20% of fatty acids then the only other place it can get atp from is protien or fat bodies but It won't get it from the protien if your doing exercises that promote muscle growth. In addition to being a calorie consuming process of converting protien to atp, protien is also the most thermogenic of foods when consumed, so it burns the most calories just by simple digestion ( I don't advocate metabolic flux and negative calories, but higher thermogenic foods cost more atp to absorb) In all cases protien is VERY inefficient as an energy source, and your body has no other way to get energy but from the fat bodies and by controlling your insulin levels in this way your body is more likely to utilize those for atp.



O.K. then - under what conditions is there a very high probability that excess protein WILL in fact get stored as fat ? you would have to be eating quite a bit of protien for the glycogen produced by it to be stored as fat. When protien is converted to glycogen, it uses almost as much atp as the glycogen produced supplies, so then you would also have to have enough glycogen from that process to not be more than enough so that it is triggered to be stored as fat rather than it being used for energy.
 
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"that you need extreme amounts in excess for their to be a signficant net gain of atp in gluconeogensis for excess energy to be converted to fat"

That really doesnt make much sense at all..

It isnt ATP that is the precursor for conversion of protein to fat its the substrate itself.
 
This is just what i've read and heard from diff credible people... I mean I'm not a personal trainer like u two o_O just average joe so your opinions are probably more credible than mine but some biology would help me understand your thoughts on protien being converted to fat more easily.
 
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matt182 said:
"that you need extreme amounts in excess for their to be a signficant net gain of atp in gluconeogensis for excess energy to be converted to fat"

That really doesnt make much sense at all..

It isnt ATP that is the precursor for conversion of protein to fat its the substrate itself.
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hmm mab i'm not very articulate >_<

ATp is energy, if there is a need for it your body will do what it takes to get it I don't understand what your saying >_<... and converting protien to glycogen is a process it uses if carbs and fats or atp from the muscles or liver is not availble... but it has little net atp gains.


What I meant is gluconeogensis by protien into glycogen, costs almost as much atp as that GLYCOGEN produced by the proccess will than supply, so your body needs so much atp, then during the conversion needs even more atp, but after the conversion is over has some glycogen to have a net gain of atp, this process isn't used very often because it;s inefficient at supplying a net gain of atp, and in addition isn't used very often for protien conversion. so your body would lets say needs so much energy for it to fullfill it's bodily functions through gluconeogensis it would have to produce enough energy to fullfill those functions and have enough left over for that glycogen to be stored. OR so i've come to think >_<

JUST simply protien is to inefficient as an energy source ><
 
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Like okee I'm trying to explain why protien isn't easily converted into fat, are you understanding why?? Or am I not explaining right? >_< and you guys say it is turned into fat just like carbs or protien, why so though? I see it as different from carbs and fat for the biological reasons stated above... Is there a reason why gluconeogensis would occur more often, rather than protien being extcreted in waste? or is there a reason why the conversion of protien would have a higher net gain of atp indirectly? I kinda think you guys put sole importance of diet in a calorie deficient not all calories are equal... the thermogenic value, the gi value of carbs, macro nutrient timing, can be just as important as the cutting of calories.
IF you could are perfectly, you could eat the calories you exerted but manipulate your body in such a way that you lose fat and gain muscle from it although it would be on a very small scale and eating that way is very difficult.

I mean basically i've come to believe
biologically a 16 carbon fatty acid molecule will provide about 140 units of ATP a similar chained glucose molecule will provide less units of ATP. 1 grams of amino acids provides 1 unit of ATP So when those amino's are converted they make very little net gain of fat or glucose.

The primary goal is to LOSE fat as fast as possible not to increase stamina, strength, health, etc.. I mean ketogenic type diets are horrible for your health but for some people they are very efficient at losing fat...So NASM might not reccomend such notions to lose fat because they aren't optimal for health I donno if that's there reason or not though I'm just guessing ><...Although I don't know much about ketogenics so I mostly stay away from it but what i've heard is that macroratio of 5/3/2 p/c/f isn't as risky like ketogenic.
 
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I dont have time for any detailed explaining on my behalf.

But i want to say, importantly, that the end product of gluconeogenisis is not glycogen - its is glucose. If you cant get these terms right then i find it hard to believe that everything your saying is correct or worth worrying about.

Its no easy subject. Picking and choosing information to read wont help you understand the whole grand scheme of things let alone personal conceptions and ideas based on what you do know or think you know.

By the way theres always ATP, without it your cell gradient will fail leading to cell death or necrosis.
 
Glycogen is a polysaccharide of glucose though. It's not my personal beliefs... the idea of protien as an inefficient source of energy and can't be turned into fat... High protein diets have been popular since the early 1960’s it's not my personal idea... ><
just google ketogenic or lean protien diet o_O
 
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The end product of gluconeogensis is glucose fullstop

Then it can be used for glycolysis or other other pathways. Why would it turn to glycogen? that defeats the whole purpose of gluconeogenisis which is to provide the body with glucose that isnt readily available as glycogen.

Glycogen is a highly branched polymer. Which requires specific enzymes to create it and degrade it back to glucose molecules.
 
matt182 said:
The end product of gluconeogensis is glucose fullstop

Then it can be used for glycolysis or other other pathways. Why would it turn to glycogen? that defeats the whole purpose of gluconeogenisis which is to provide the body with glucose that isnt readily available as glycogen.

Glycogen is a highly branched polymer. Which requires specific enzymes to create it and degrade it back to glucose molecules.
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hmm ic >_< I kind of assumed glycogen was basically a product of glycolysis from glucose and it was to be used as energy... but even still 1g o amino supplys radically lower atp than the other macronutrients. Glycogen is the atp sources from the liver and muscles right? is it just excess amounts of glucose that turn to fat or is it excess amounts of glycogen?

since your right I don't know the terms very well let me get a better understanding
protien can be used for energy? What source of energy is it converted into if not glycogen which >< that wouldn't make sense your right protien turning into glycogen doesn't make sense but I do know it turns into glucose but what form of glucose?

from glucose what turns into fat? I always thought any excess glucose turns into fat if not used?

Then what's the reasoning behind lean protien diets and ketogenic diets if they don't work? why do people go on them? I know ketogenic diets are easy for one but lean protien diets ussually aren't. I always thought ketogenic diet was manipilation of the hormones to induce ketosis and lean protien was to lower insulin... if those don't work what's the reasoning behind these diets? Competitors do use these >_< so I don't get why they would if they don't work?
 
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matt182 said:
I dont have time for any detailed explaining on my behalf.

But i want to say, importantly, that the end product of gluconeogenisis is not glycogen - its is glucose. If you cant get these terms right then i find it hard to believe that everything your saying is correct or worth worrying about.

Its no easy subject. Picking and choosing information to read wont help you understand the whole grand scheme of things let alone personal conceptions and ideas based on what you do know or think you know.

By the way theres always ATP, without it your cell gradient will fail leading to cell death or necrosis.
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I don't know the termonology that well i only know the concepts all my info is secondhand from mostly people and stuff i've read >< but i'm not trying to like pick a fight it seems like most of you think im wrong and im trying to understand why >_< you guys are kinda just saying no your wrong and not explaining that much what's wrong with it...
 
If someone could say like no, basically protien can be converted into fat just as easily as carbs because, then state the proccess of how protien is turned into energy and then fat and how protien is suffiecient at supplying energy for the body... then i'd be really happy >_<
 
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protein isnt efficient for supplying the body with energy.
Protein isnt specifically designed for our energy needs as they already have many important functions such as enzymes and cytoskelotons, not to mention the inability to be stored (so thats why excess is either used as energy, excreted, or turned into fat.

The energy is stored in the substrates bonds. It isnt necessarily a linear realm where protein turns to energy, the energy then to fat. The energy isnt simply released and then turned into fat. It bypasses direct ATP production, is converted to fat which can then be used for energy or simply just stored.

Hope i got that right i might be rushing things but hopefully that answers something.
 
ryan04 said:
----Well of course for aethletic performance I would agree to build stamina strength and such a higher carb macronutrient ratio is better but from what i've read the competition bodybuilders and some male models are on a lean protien diet during cutting phases and it centers around controlling insulin. --
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And, I suppose some - if not many - aren't as well. So, you could easily argue both sides.

I'm simply saying that the issue of restricting / avoiding carbs as it pertains to insulin sensitivity / fat storage is a pretty much a non-issue for most healthy people.

As far as looking to what male models and bodybuilders do for guidance - they certainly wouldn't be my first choice of who I'd turn to for nutrition advice ...but that's just me. :)

ryan04 said:
----Apparently there is debate among this, but a lot of the competitors use higher protien macronutrient ratios to hit that single digit and I personally like how a lean protien diet works with me so I do believe controlling insulin promotes fat loss everyone is different though so maybe it just affects me better than others, I heard tony freeman the bodybuilder goes as far as cutting his carbs completely in cutting phases
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Again, I think this obsession with high carbs being a harbinger of insulin driven fat gain is just lot of overblown propaganda quite frankly.

As far as 'single digit ' bodyfat goes ,many many years ago I was able to hover around 8% bf - and all while scarfing down boatloads of carbs ( i.e.well over 50% ). There's more than one way to skin a cat I guess.:)

Again, I don't turn to bodybuilders for guidance - most of them are " juiced " IMO ( which, sadly, speaks for itself IMO ) - and most people on this forum aren't trying to get to 4% +/- like bodybuilders are when they cut.

ryan04 said:
--I do know sat fat helps in the production of testosterone and that weight lifting helps promote that, whether 20% is the right macronutrient ratio I do not know the biology behind it >< it's just what several credible people have told me. People with degrees in exercise science and nutrition and a couple models.--
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Well, that's a surprise to me.

Again, 20% is rarely a number I see in articles etc. ....most often it's 25% or 30% and, to lesser extent , 35%...numbers cited from " people with degrees in exercise science and nutrition and a couple models "

As for models ? No comment.

ryan04 said:
-- i'm aware of that nasm reccomends 25-35 and most personal trainers also recognize such, I prolly should look more into the biology and detail about that number, 20% is just what i've heard many times and except for a few pro bodybuilders that resort to keto, is what they use.
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Again, most pro bodybuilders use steroids ( which speaks for itself IMO ) - so, the notion that just because a bodybuilder does something, as a result, it may represent some sort of ' best practice ' is not the most sound basis for determining the validity of a given protocol IMO.

btw - what does the The National Academy of Sports Medicine recommend as far as protein and carb intake for pound that you weigh ?

ryan04 said:
---No I don't agree that protien turns to fat so easily, I don't believe it CAN't ever either I know that is a myth, but the process in which amino's are converted to glycogen is extremely inefficient at supplying atp--
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Fair enough.

But under what conditions is there a high probability that excess protein WILL get stored as fat ?
 
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protein can be thrown into krebs cycle, the result of krebs cycle is eventually ATP, which is energy. It's a process that requires some energy, but you still get more ATP from it than you use. That's pretty much all I know about that. I don't know if ATP can be converted to fat? When is carbs turned into fat anyways? .. and how does it happen? what's the name of the process? (so I can google and get some images :p)
 
Protein is a relatively expensive (and inefficient) energy source when compared to carbohydrates, IMO.

As much as some (myself included, on some forms of sugars) frown on sugars and (some) starches, these carbohydrates are your body's MOST important fuel source.

Your body breaks them down into the simple sugar glucose. Glucose is either directly consumed by your cells for energy, or it's stored as glycogen in the muscle or liver for later use when your energy demand requires it. These are trather--- simple, ---accurate facts.

From what I read on this subject matter:

When glucose is in short supply, your body will begin to utilize fat and protein (even muscle protein) for energy to preserve glucose levels. This can be rather complex.

If you do not obtain enough glucose from the food you eat, your body has the ability to convert protein or fat into glucose. As you burn calories (energy) through exercise, or remain in a carbohydrate-fasted state (as on low carb diets), your body scrambles to make glucose in an effort to maintain its glucose.

From what I have read on the subject (thus far) its glucose (and its conversions) that determines how fast your body burns fat, how well it performs physically, and how fast you recover after training. Yes, low carbohydrate diets can be an effective way to manipulate your body's glucose, IMO, in the short duration. Since the body is in a carb-depleted state, it is forced to convert nutrients (etc) into glucose to meet its energy demands. But, I do not think one ought to do it---for extended periods of time.


Best wishes,


Chillen
 
ATP isnt converted to fat or anything, its been made so its used for the cell.

If in excess, the glucose which gets down to be Acetyl CoA can then be turned to fat via the reverse of beta oxidation. So its just the same but in reverse of fat oxidation.

And i wouldnt say the protein is chucked in its the amino acids. Which depending on which ones will determine what they turn in to and therefore there position in metabolism.
 
well to be honest optimal health isn't my goal I know there are health risks for keto and lean protien diets, i'm only trying to lose those last maybe 5-10 lbs to get into single % I'm doing 5 days of hiit and 4 days of lifting and it's going down so slowly from calorie count alone i would think i'd be going down quite a bit faster and i'm not losing any strength it seems so I don't think i'm losing muscle mass. =/ And yeah this diet is a cutting diet I have no plans on staying on this for extended periods of time.
 
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any luck?

I'm with you, on trying to find menu ideas of what to eat when. I am also new at this and trying to have it simplified. I work 4 days a week, married, 2 kids, drive them around a lot. Trying to make time to work out, but also realize I need to eat better. Curious about any good ideas.
 
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