Weight loss vs. Muscle building- overall timeframe

[uyis11]

Ok, this is probably a question directed at Steve and I hope the answer isn't in another thread because I've looked really hard/read all the stickies.

I am a 23 year old male with an end goal of having a flat stomach/6 pack abs/good overall muscle definition- basically looking good with no clothes. I've lost some significant poundage so far through dieting/cardio/weight lifting. From what I understand, it is very difficult (if not impossible) to add weight in muscle while in caloric deficit (like I have been for the past 3-4 months). SO, I assume the weight lifting I have done so far is merely maintaining the muscle mass I previously had, which is actually significant.

I have experienced lots of strength gains through lifting over the past few months which I also assume are not due to muscle growth for the most part, but some "cellular focusing" or some other technical term described by Steve in an earlier thread. My strength is basically back to where it was in high school (I was a fatty, but pretty strong back then), so maybe a result of "muscle memory?"- maybe that's a "fake" term, but I heard some trainer say it once.

My main question is:
When should I start increasing my caloric intake to increase muscle mass and will I gain fat while gaining muscle when I do this?

It seems counterintuitive to suddenly go from caloric deficit to caloric overhaul, so is this something I need to spread out over time? Should I wait to start trying to build muscle mass until my body fat % is low enough where I can see my abdominal muscles? Will consistent weight lifting prevent this process from resulting in gaining back some/all of the fat or can I count on significant muscle gains? I just don't understand how to make this transition. I know this is a pretty big undertaking, but I'm willing to do what it takes. Lately, I just feel like my weight lifting sessions are in vain because of caloric deficit. I'm really working out hard, hitting every muscle group, and being consistent. I should also note that I'm not trying to be a body builder, but I do want a cut/strong body and am willing to spend however much time/years/effort to get it. Also, where does cardio fit into this new process? I have the notion that it will be difficult to lose this last 10lbs or so of body fat if I do not have some increases in muscle mass.

Sorry for so many questions, but I think I hit the overall theme of what my dilemma is. If anyone "in the know" wants to suggest a book that might help me, please let me know about it.

Many, many thanks for reading. I'm always impressed with the level of knowledge I find in these threads.
-Marcus

 

[Steve]

First let me rip through this post piece by peice where I have direct comments. If I have more to say at the end, I'll add it there....

I've lost some significant poundage so far through dieting/cardio/weight lifting.

What kind of progress are we talking here? What are your current stats? What were your previous stats? What are your goal stats?

From what I understand, it is very difficult (if not impossible) to add weight in muscle while in caloric deficit (like I have been for the past 3-4 months). SO, I assume the weight lifting I have done so far is merely maintaining the muscle mass I previously had, which is actually significant.

For the most part adding muscle while losing fat is tough. It's not impossible though... if someone is fat and/or not used to weight training (so a novice or someone coming back from a long break) there's a pretty good chance that they'll experience simultaneous muscle gain and fat loss. It will, however, be short-lived. And the fact that you say you carry a pretty high level of muscle anyhow means you're less likely to be adding significant muscle while dieting.

I have experienced lots of strength gains through lifting over the past few months which I also assume are not due to muscle growth for the most part, but some "cellular focusing" or some other technical term described by Steve in an earlier thread.

Most likely your brain learned how to portray more strength through various neuromuscular adaptations.

My main question is:
When should I start increasing my caloric intake to increase muscle mass and will I gain fat while gaining muscle when I do this?

There isn't an answer to this question. At least not once someone else can give you. If you are carrying around a significant amount of muscle, as you say you are, there's really no point in bulking ever, lol. Keep shedding the fat until you're happy.

Or, if you find that once all the fats off you want to be bigger, start bulking then.

It's a very individual thing though.

It seems counterintuitive to suddenly go from caloric deficit to caloric overhaul, so is this something I need to spread out over time?

Yes.

If you decide that a bulk is in order, it's not something you want to jump right into. You'd want to gradually build your intake up to your estimated maintenance. I'd actually sit at maintenance for a couple of weeks and then gradually bump calories up every week or so by 10%. This isn't written in stone at all. It's all about tracking and adapting your approach based on the feedback provided by your tracking measurements. If you find that you're steadily adding weight after bumping up 10% over maintenance... then obviously you don't want to bump up again until you milk that intake for all its got, if that makes any sense.

The secret to bulking is finding that sweet spot where you're eating enough to provide the energy necessary for muscular development but not so much that you're packing on the fat. And to find that spot it takes small tweaks and proper tracking and manipulation.

Should I wait to start trying to build muscle mass until my body fat % is low enough where I can see my abdominal muscles?

I think I mentioned something above on this... but there isn't a right/wrong answer to this question.

Again, it's based on your goals and how you're currently feeling about your physique. If your primary goal is to get lean enough to be 'ripped' then focus on that until you reach it. Once you reach it, reevaluate and decide which direction you want to head next.

Will consistent weight lifting prevent this process from resulting in gaining back some/all of the fat or can I count on significant muscle gains?

Gaining fat is more a function of caloric intake. If you're eating in a caloric surplus, you're going to gain fat. You have to take the good with the bad when you bulk. How much fat you gain is dependent on a few things:

- genetics
- how well you regulate your surplus (eat too much and gain more fat... you can't fast forward muscle growth)
- proper weight training will entice the surplus of energy to be partitioned to muscle instead of fat but not completely

All these things play a role and probably more.

How much muscle you gain in a bulk is dependent on genetics and a solid routine. If a solid routine is in place and you are consistent with progression you'll gain a good bit of muscle. The closer you get to your genetic potential, the slower those gains will come though.

I just don't understand how to make this transition. I know this is a pretty big undertaking, but I'm willing to do what it takes.

Are you lean yet? Can you see your abs? Are you happy with what you see in the mirror?

If the answer is no, then why are you worried about making this transition right now? You don't HAVE to bulk.

Lately, I just feel like my weight lifting sessions are in vain because of caloric deficit.

No.

You need to rid yourself of this idea.

Firstly, there are a lot of benefits associated with weight lifting... not just growing muscle.

Secondly, if things aren't set up properly nutritionally and through your training, the closer you get to being lean, the more likely it will be that you lose muscle. If looking lean is your prerogative, I highly suggest not losing muscle.

Losing weight is pretty easy. Losing fat and maintaining muscle however, takes a few extra steps. If you simply want to be a smaller, still soft version of your former self... then you can think like this.

If not, again, rid yourself of this idea.

It's not like if you aren't growing muscle, you're doing nothing.

Muscle loss is a reality.

Also, where does cardio fit into this new process?

Have you been doing cardio?

Cardio isn't necessary to lose fat but it does make it easier for numerous reasons. A big one is the simple fact that it acts as an energetic savings account. Adding cardio a few days per week allows you to 'withdraw' some calories from the savings and eat a bit more. Most people don't handle hunger well.

I have the notion that it will be difficult to lose this last 10lbs or so of body fat if I do not have some increases in muscle mass.

So you don't think you'll be able to lose the last 10 lbs if you don't gain muscle?

Why is that?

 

[uyis11]

Steve-
First, one-hundred thanks for your reply. You should be getting a salary for this! I'll go down the line and reply to your additional questions.

What kind of progress are we talking here? What are your current stats? What were your previous stats? What are your goal stats?

I'm 6'0. I started at 210 and am down to 170.5 over about 4 months. Unfortunately, when I started I was not taking measurements, but I do know my fat clothes are very loose now and I'm wearing clothes I've never been able to wear before. Just this week I took measurements [I wish, wish, wish I would have done this 4 months ago]. My goal stats: like I said, I don't really have a pound number in mind, I just want to see a significant level of muscle definition through reduced body fat.

Have you been doing cardio?

Yes. About 30-45 minutes of bike or elliptical 6x a week at 145-165 HR.

So you don't think you'll be able to lose the last 10 lbs if you don't gain muscle?

Why is that?

I have believed that getting lean requires a certain level of muscle mass (individual to each, of course) to burn that last amount of fat. From your response, it sounds like that is fundamentally incorrect & I should toss out that notion. And now that I think about it, I'm not even sure why I have believed that.

Anyway, I think I have a strategy/new way of looking at things from your response. My plan is to keep up with what I've been doing and keep shooting towards that goal body fat percentage while not worrying about increasing muscle mass right now. I will continue to stick with my weight lifting schedule. When I reach that goal, I will then consider bulking. To me, there is a point in bulking in the future because I am not satisfied with the amount of lean mass I have on my lower body (I'm totally lopsided).

Steve, thanks again for all your comments. You have a way of putting things into perspective.

 

[Steve]

Steve-
First, one-hundred thanks for your reply. You should be getting a salary for this! I'll go down the line and reply to your additional questions.

Anytime.... I've been there myself unsure of what direction I needed to head to realize my goals... so it's always nice to help someone think it out.

I'm 6'0. I started at 210 and am down to 170.5 over about 4 months.

That's a pretty big weight loss in that amount of time given your stats. Were you tracking calories and macros?

I'd be interested in seeing what your physique looks like now at those stats.

Yes. About 30-45 minutes of bike or elliptical 6x a week at 145-165 HR.

Ok, thats more than I like to see myself but if you find it's necessary than so be it.

I'm also curious as to what your weight lifting routine looks like.

Anyway, I think I have a strategy/new way of looking at things from your response. My plan is to keep up with what I've been doing and keep shooting towards that goal body fat percentage while not worrying about increasing muscle mass right now. I will continue to stick with my weight lifting schedule. When I reach that goal, I will then consider bulking. To me, there is a point in bulking in the future because I am not satisfied with the amount of lean mass I have on my lower body (I'm totally lopsided).

If you're anything like me, you'll never be done.

I love the process and would hate to simply maintain. There's always room for improvement in my mind and that's why I intend to set out and do. I get bored sometimes with physique stuff and work in more strength and/or performance stuff... but I'm always about improving some aspect of fitness and health. Why maintain when you can improve?

 

[uyis11]

That's a pretty big weight loss in that amount of time given your stats. Were you tracking calories and macros?

I'd be interested in seeing what your physique looks like now at those stats.

As far as diet, I haven't been counting calories precisely and I don't know what macros are! From my estimations, I eat between 1500-2200 calories a day and have switched to mostly natural foods. I try to follow the food pyramid as far as % of what foods to eat- so my diet includes dairy, carbohydrates, meats, fruits/vegetables, and very minimal fats/sugars. I eat probably 5-8 small meals each day depending on hunger.

Just to satisfy your curiosity, I attempted to post some images of my upper body to give you an idea. They aren't very good (taking self pics with a camera phone is hard). These pictures are an eye opener for me, I can really tell a huge difference. I wish I had some before pictures. I know these are just upper body; my lower body is very lean with not much fat, but dinky muscles. All my body fat seems to be sitting on my upper body.

I'll give you a rundown of my weight lifting routine since you are curious:

2 sets - Flat dumbbell bench press
2 sets - seated dips (using machine)
2-3 sets - seated concentration curls
2 sets - back machine- hits traps/lats/some bicep
2 sets - ab machine
2 sets - squats

Most sets are in the 6-15 range, all to failure except for ab machine. I do this routine 3x a week with 1 day rest in between. I'm trying to transition into doing incline bench instead of flat. I've felt like I've had a lot of success doing only 2 sets for each exercise even though I know a lot of people do more. My logic derived from some reading about HST that indicates doing 5-6 sets once a week on a muscle group is less effective than spreading those sets out over the week. The idea was to "create an environment of progressive load" not just acute stimulations of the muscle. That's probably oversimplified, but my body is reacting well to it with said strength gains so I'm going to stick with it.

 

[Steve]

As far as diet, I haven't been counting calories precisely and I don't know what macros are! From my estimations, I eat between 1500-2200 calories a day and have switched to mostly natural foods.

1500 is a bit low, especially once you factor in all the exercise you're doing. The last thing you want to be doing is losing muscle.

I try to follow the food pyramid as far as % of what foods to eat- so my diet includes dairy, carbohydrates, meats, fruits/vegetables, and very minimal fats/sugars. I eat probably 5-8 small meals each day depending on hunger.

My general rules of dieting for muscle maintenance or gain:

1. Assure your calories match your goal.
2. Assure intake of adequate protein. Without that, muscle maintenance isn't likely. I'd shoot for 1 gram per pound of lean body mass at the least given your stats.
3. Assure intake of adequate essential fatty acids; fish, fish oils, flax, olive oil, nuts, avocados, etc. Adequate IMO would be somewhere between .25-.5 grams per pound of total weight.
4. Fill in the rest with more fat and carbs.

What happens with your physique (genetics aside) has more to do with your nutrition than anything else. It sounds like you're really into making this work, so I'd suggest focusing in on your nutrition a bit more. Something like calorieking.com or fitday.com can really make a difference.

Just to satisfy your curiosity, I attempted to post some images of my upper body to give you an idea. They aren't very good (taking self pics with a camera phone is hard). These pictures are an eye opener for me, I can really tell a huge difference. I wish I had some before pictures. I know these are just upper body; my lower body is very lean with not much fat, but dinky muscles. All my body fat seems to be sitting on my upper body.

Yea, you don't have far to go really. And truthfully if I were in your shoes, I'd be split between cutting and bulking. As we've covered above, this is a never ending process. You don't want to get to a point where you're too skinny given your stats. It's hard to tell what's going on from those pics but you can tell you have a nice base of muscle.

I'm not sure where you're located. I'm in the north east and the warmer months are fast approaching. With that in mind, I'd probably continue the cut since it's the time of year when the shirt comes off.

As soon as the cooler months work their way back into the picture though, I'd probably start bulking if I were you... at least for a few months and especially after I got my nutrition under wraps.

I'll give you a rundown of my weight lifting routine since you are curious:

2 sets - Flat dumbbell bench press
2 sets - seated dips (using machine)
2-3 sets - seated concentration curls
2 sets - back machine- hits traps/lats/some bicep
2 sets - ab machine
2 sets - squats

Most sets are in the 6-15 range, all to failure except for ab machine. I do this routine 3x a week with 1 day rest in between. I'm trying to transition into doing incline bench instead of flat. I've felt like I've had a lot of success doing only 2 sets for each exercise even though I know a lot of people do more. My logic derived from some reading about HST that indicates doing 5-6 sets once a week on a muscle group is less effective than spreading those sets out over the week. The idea was to "create an environment of progressive load" not just acute stimulations of the muscle. That's probably oversimplified, but my body is reacting well to it with said strength gains so I'm going to stick with it.

Haycock's HST is an interesting set up and one I'm not going to down. I've seen some guys with some nice results using his set up, although I'd make some serious changes if I were going to use it myself. It sounds like you're not following it to a 'T' which IMO is a good thing.

As we've stated, you're main prerogative at the moment is muscle maintenance. And accomplishing that doesn't take a whole heck of a lot of volume.

However, I would switch things up a bit if I were you.

The first thing which is glaringly obvious is the training to failure. You don't want to be doing that, ESPECIALLY not each time that you train. You don't want to be doing it often when you're in a caloric surplus and even less while you're dieting... if at all. Reduced calories = reduced recoverability

If you're interested we can discuss this in greater detail but for not, suffice it to say, you need to change that.

Second, I'm not such a fan of your order. In general, the hardest exercises should be placed first in the exercise lineup since they'll require the most focus and exertion. This isn't always the case but in general, it's a rule. That said, the big leg exercises should come first.

Third, if you're going to keep doing isolation work at all, like your curls and whatnot, drop that to last since they aren't important at all relative to your current goals.

Fourth, I'd vary your intensity a bit. This could be easily accomplished by doing something similar to the "Basic Lifts" Sticky. I suggest you read that.

I had a few other ideas while reading through this but let's start with this.

 

[uyis11]

The first thing which is glaringly obvious is the training to failure. You don't want to be doing that, ESPECIALLY not each time that you train. You don't want to be doing it often when you're in a caloric surplus and even less while you're dieting... if at all. Reduced calories = reduced recoverability

If you're interested we can discuss this in greater detail but for not, suffice it to say, you need to change that.

After [re]reading the "Basic Lifts" sticky, I think it's clear my definition of "failure" is deficient. I guess what I meant to say is, I use enough weight where the last rep of each set is slowed or the weight is heavy enough where it causes me to lose form. I'll be sure to correctly use that term in the future. I typically don't have a spotter, so I've probably "truly" gone to failure only a few times in the last few months.

Second, I'm not such a fan of your order. In general, the hardest exercises should be placed first in the exercise lineup since they'll require the most focus and exertion. This isn't always the case but in general, it's a rule. That said, the big leg exercises should come first.

Check. This is something I will change immediately. I just haphazardly have done my exercises in no order, but I'll heed your advice on this one. When would you put cardio into this mix- before or after? I've been doing it afterwards to ensure I have enough energy for lifting.

Fourth, I'd vary your intensity a bit. This could be easily accomplished by doing something similar to the "Basic Lifts" Sticky. I suggest you read that.

First, that sticky contains so much good information, everyone and their grandma should read it. The detailed squat description really helped me when I first started with squats. I went back through it to find the part about varying intensity. I guess you are referring to the part where you describe cutting back intensity by 10 or 15% and then slowly building back up?

As far as nutrition, my average caloric intake is about 1900 calories and 1500 might only occur once a week. You indicate 1gram/lb of lean body mass, but I have no idea what my lean mass is. I'm actually planning on having a body composition test done this week at my university, so I guess I will know then. I aim for 60g of protein a day in my current diet.

I like your time frame recommendations for the summer months. It will be great to not be embarrassed with my shirt off for the first summer since 3rd grade!

 

[Steve]

After [re]reading the "Basic Lifts" sticky, I think it's clear my definition of "failure" is deficient. I guess what I meant to say is, I use enough weight where the last rep of each set is slowed or the weight is heavy enough where it causes me to lose form. I'll be sure to correctly use that term in the future. I typically don't have a spotter, so I've probably "truly" gone to failure only a few times in the last few months.

Okay, that makes sense then.

Check. This is something I will change immediately. I just haphazardly have done my exercises in no order, but I'll heed your advice on this one.

Good.

When would you put cardio into this mix- before or after? I've been doing it afterwards to ensure I have enough energy for lifting.

Right, I'd be leaving it for after my weight training.

First, that sticky contains so much good information, everyone and their grandma should read it. The detailed squat description really helped me when I first started with squats.

Glad to hear.

I went back through it to find the part about varying intensity. I guess you are referring to the part where you describe cutting back intensity by 10 or 15% and then slowly building back up?

I haven't read through it in a while and I've made about 5000 posts since that one, lol, so I can't remember what I put in the application post. That said, I'm simply suggesting you vary intensity throughout the week by varying your rep range. I'd have a heavy day where you're in the 4-6 rep range. I'd have a light day where you're in the 12-15 rep range. And I'd have a moderate day where you're in the 6-10 rep range.

This goes only for your big exercises.

The isolation work you're doing for arms can always be in the 10-15 rep range.

You could also add some variety into the mix.

You're heavy day could be something like:

Full Barbell Squats
Barbell Bench Press
Some sort of Row
Whatever other little things you want to throw in at the end

You're light day could be something like:

Bulgarian Split Squats
SHELCS or Leg Curls
Incline DB Bench Press
DB Rows
Whatever other little things you want to throw in at the end

You're moderate day coudl be something like:

Romanian Deadlifts
Leg Press or Front Squats
Overhead Barbell Press
Pullups or Pulldowns
Whatever other little things you want to throw in at the end

Just a suggestion and certainly not written in stone.

As far as nutrition, my average caloric intake is about 1900 calories and 1500 might only occur once a week. You indicate 1gram/lb of lean body mass, but I have no idea what my lean mass is. I'm actually planning on having a body composition test done this week at my university, so I guess I will know then. I aim for 60g of protein a day in my current diet.

I'd make a stab at saying you're around 14-15% but pics can be misleading. If you're getting tested this week than there's no point in estimating. But just to show you, if you were 15%, that would mean you have a total body fat of 25ish lbs. The rest, 145 lbs, is lean body mass. So regardless of how close my estimation of BF% is, you're way under-consuming protein.

Also, you mention that you try and keep fat real low, if I remember correctly.

60g of protein =240 calories

Assume you are taking in 40 grams of fat which would = 360 calories

That means, if you're truly averaging 1900 calories per day, you are eating a shit ton of carbs each day. 1900-240-360=1300.

That's 1300 calories from carbs or nearly 70% of your diet.

Carbs aren't evil by any stretch of the imagination... but you need to start concerning yourself with adequate intakes of the essentials... those being protein and good fats.

 

[uyis11]

Steve,
Some of those exercises scare me (military press and deadlifts), but I've got to man up some time.

I took your advice and used fitday for today to calculate more precisely what my diet is like. Today was on the lower-end for total calories because I always eat more snacks during the work week (at least 200-400 calories more). Here is the run down from today:
Total calories: 1754
Fat: 45g, 24%
Carbs: 253g, 50%
Protein: 110g , 26%
I don't know why I thought I had super-human estimating skills. I've seen so many people say in this forum that estimating is never accurate and I always assumed that didn't apply to me. Doh. From this report from fitday, it looks like I need to be consuming more protein/fat like you suggested & probably more calories.

I'll let you know the results of my body composition. We'll put your estimating skills to the test!

 

[Steve]

Steve,
Some of those exercises scare me (military press and deadlifts), but I've got to man up some time.

Military Press is a pretty simple movement... I prefer to do them standing with a barbell but you can also use dumbbells.

Romanian deadlifts aren't the same as conventional deadlifts.... I think I made a pretty good description of them recently, let me see if I can dig it up.

Read post #12 in this thread:

http://weight-loss.fitness.com/weight-loss-through-exercise/17573-excercises-pull-up.html#post366803

I took your advice and used fitday for today to calculate more precisely what my diet is like. Today was on the lower-end for total calories because I always eat more snacks during the work week (at least 200-400 calories more). Here is the run down from today:

That's pretty interesting... most people eat more junk during the weekends.

Total calories: 1754
Fat: 45g, 24%
Carbs: 253g, 50%
Protein: 110g , 26%

That's not too bad, really. Let's wait and see what your BF% comes back as and you might want to consider manipulating your proteins and carbs a bit.

I don't know why I thought I had super-human estimating skills. I've seen so many people say in this forum that estimating is never accurate and I always assumed that didn't apply to me. Doh.

Welcome to the world of weight loss... I can count on my fingers and toes how many people I've come across initially who were calculating their calories and macros accurately. And I've dealt with a lot of people.

From this report from fitday, it looks like I need to be consuming more protein/fat like you suggested & probably more calories.

In most cases, I think eating as much as you can while still triggering a deficit for fat loss is best since it's what most people are going to be able to adhere to. However, for some, doing more extreme approaches work out... it's all about the person's mindframe. Take me for instance.... for the past month I've been doing some pretty crazy dieting.

But there are constants that are in place no matter what I'm doing and the two fundamental ones are adequate protein and fats. You're fats are ok... I usually keep mine around 30% of my diet. But I make sure that the majority of it is coming from the good stuff.

Protein is always around 1-1.5 grams per pound of LBM for me.

I'll let you know the results of my body composition. We'll put your estimating skills to the test!

I'll admit my estimating skills suck when I'm looking at pictures. They're mediocre at best when seeing someone in person. 10% body fat looks different on different people so it's next to impossible.

 

[Darth Pooh]

I just wanted to thank both Steve and uyis11 for a GREAT thread to read. I myself am at the same crossroads and this answered my questions (REALLY all of them) dead on.

I think while reading this the only thought that came to my head, my basic lifts for maintaining muscle won't cut it anymore:

3x week (MWF):

Pullups/Chinups (3 sets of 15, never really completed it yet, usually 15,13,8).
Arnold Presses (3 sets of 4-8, depending on weight)
Bench Press (usually machine due to lack of spotters, 3 sets of 4-8)
Dumbbell Squats (3 sets of 8).

Followed by 40 minutes of sustained cardio in the 160-180 range. Used to do HIIT but for various reasons moved off of doing that.

T and TH:

Abs and 40 minutes of the same cardio.

I will throw inbetween some kickbacks at low weights but higher reps and forearm stuff. This whole thing might need to be amended, I do like the idea of a fullbody workout 3 times a week still, just seems like I need more compound sets of biceps, triceps, shoulders, back... just not sure how it's supposed to look on what days. Mind you, I have a few months to make this decision because as Steve said, these are the months to be in the CUT and shredding. I should be down to 15% BF by the end of this month (my short term goal, currently at 17%).

 

[Steve]

I think while reading this the only thought that came to my head, my basic lifts for maintaining muscle won't cut it anymore:

What makes you say that?

I'm not suggesting you're right or wrong...

Just curious.

3x week (MWF):

Pullups/Chinups (3 sets of 15, never really completed it yet, usually 15,13,8).
Arnold Presses (3 sets of 4-8, depending on weight)
Bench Press (usually machine due to lack of spotters, 3 sets of 4-8)
Dumbbell Squats (3 sets of 8).

I'd probably switch some things up so it's not the same exact thing 3x per week. I mean boredom alone would get the best of me at this point. Plus, doing bench and arnolds both 3 times per week and no horizontal pulling could lead to some pretty nasty imbalances.

If you're standing erect with your hands naturally hanging down to your sides, where are they? Are your hands in front of your thighs? Are they facing each other or are they slightly facing rearward?

 

[Darth Pooh]

What makes you say that?

I'm not suggesting you're right or wrong...

Just curious.



I'd probably switch some things up so it's not the same exact thing 3x per week. I mean boredom alone would get the best of me at this point. Plus, doing bench and arnolds both 3 times per week and no horizontal pulling could lead to some pretty nasty imbalances.

If you're standing erect with your hands naturally hanging down to your sides, where are they? Are your hands in front of your thighs? Are they facing each other or are they slightly facing rearward?

I thought that because it doesn't seem to be getting everything it should, or correction, ENOUGH of what everything should be getting. Seems like in order to bulk I need to do 3 exercises for each part of the body. Chalk that statement up to my preconceptions (possibly misconceptions) of weight lifting.

When I put my hands down... they aren't exactly to the left of the thigh, more somewhere inbetween the front and side but DEF facing each other.

There is an imperfection in my ab section though, my left upper ab (serratus anterior) is way bigger than the right one. Just noticed it the other day, mainly because I can start seeing those muscles, so I don't know if I did it or not over the past year or it's always been like that under the fat.

 

[Steve]

Seems like in order to bulk I need to do 3 exercises for each part of the body.

Oh, you were talking about bulking. I was assuming you were saying you weren't doing enough to preserve muscle since you said:

I think while reading this the only thought that came to my head, my basic lifts for maintaining muscle won't cut it anymore:

When I put my hands down... they aren't exactly to the left of the thigh, more somewhere inbetween the front and side but DEF facing each other.

There's probably already some imbalance there, then.

Overtime it will get worse and worse if you don't add some balance into the routine, i.e. more pulling.

There is an imperfection in my ab section though, my left upper ab (serratus anterior) is way bigger than the right one. Just noticed it the other day, mainly because I can start seeing those muscles, so I don't know if I did it or not over the past year or it's always been like that under the fat.

I wouldn't sweat that.

 

[Darth Pooh]

Oh, you were talking about bulking. I was assuming you were saying you weren't doing enough to preserve muscle since you said:





There's probably already some imbalance there, then.

Overtime it will get worse and worse if you don't add some balance into the routine, i.e. more pulling.



I wouldn't sweat that.

You are right, that was misleading. I meant to write during a BULK my current regiment won't cut it. I actually love my current session because I see marked improvements all the time. So it becomes a weekly competition with myself to add.

I have added the ROW machine to my cardio workouts on certain days. What would be a GOOD pulling exercise (I prefer dumbbell exercises because I have that available to me anywhere). I am going to research more on the pulling stuff too.

 

[Steve]

You are right, that was misleading. I meant to write during a BULK my current regiment won't cut it. I actually love my current session because I see marked improvements all the time. So it becomes a weekly competition with myself to add.

Ok I gotcha. Yup, during a bulk I prefer to add more volume. For starters, it's good to meet certain thresholds of not only intensity but also volume for hypertrophy. Concurrently... your recoverability is up when bulking so why not take advantage of it.

I have added the ROW machine to my cardio workouts on certain days. What would be a GOOD pulling exercise (I prefer dumbbell exercises because I have that available to me anywhere). I am going to research more on the pulling stuff too.

You could do a few things. These videos aren't about showing good form. Just showing what sort of things you can do:





-- this is actually how I do them

The list goes on.

I forget, are you working out at home?

If not, here's an awesome movement:

-- your feet don't necessarily have to be elevated.

 

[Darth Pooh]

Ok I gotcha. Yup, during a bulk I prefer to add more volume. For starters, it's good to meet certain thresholds of not only intensity but also volume for hypertrophy. Concurrently... your recoverability is up when bulking so why not take advantage of it.



You could do a few things. These videos aren't about showing good form. Just showing what sort of things you can do:





-- this is actually how I do them

The list goes on.

I forget, are you working out at home?

If not, here's an awesome movement:

-- your feet don't necessarily have to be elevated.

Sucks I can't do youtube at work, but I researched incline DB rows and the supine (which I will be adding BOTH of today, it's a shame I can't see what the difference between them and the Dingo's are...

I am going to start supines with feet on the floor 3 sets of 12... and the incline rows 3 sets of 4-8 (not sure which weight because I never attempted it).

THANKS SO MUCH!

 

[Steve]

Just go into it slow until you are confident with your form.

You're welcome.

 

[Darth Pooh]

I really wish I could work on that misbalance in my upper ab... looks like it's all fucked up.

 

[Steve]

A lot of people have strange abdominals that aren't even on both sides. If it's genetic, which seems to be most often the case, there's not much (nothing) you can really do about it.