Todays afternoon pics

[Chillen]

Some pics I took today. Side view, and front view with my balding head (LOL). I like how the torso (sides), are beginning to show some definition and siriations (lol, cant spell it). Thought I would show some progress. Im holding a bit of water, as Im getting ready to squat and do chest, and I always want my body to hold a bit of water during these big lift days. About 156.4 in pics, about 2lbs of water, or thereabouts. When I get dry, it looks almost sickly--about 152. I look awful skinny in clothes though, my co-workers say it everyday, lol. Its all good. My soon to be 46 year old body hasnt given up on me yet, and we continue the personal quest. Its the small differences, I see. Just below the chest line, siriations are appearing, and along the sides. I have tripled cardio in the last 8 weeks or so, and modified the already strict diet to provide a complimented set. Soon, Im going to show the tri's and my pitiful bi's (though there strong, 140lbs preacher 5 reps, there just not what I want, but they ARE NOT the focus, and hoot).

I have been doing cardio (upright recumbant bike with back rest) with a slight twist the past couple of weeks: I take two 10lbs olympic weights, and do russian twists, for the first 10 minutes of the cardio, then rest 6 minutes while still doing cardio, then take one in each hand, and punch forward for another 5 minutes, rest 5 minutes while still doing cardio, and then hold them in the air for remaining, and rest the last minute. A killer (LOL). Burns a small bit more of calories then what the cardio normally gives.

Im on to something with this Oatmeal (and fiber and carbs) and how it effects my body. I eat about 2 servings (300c) (with other protein), and drink water for about an hour or so, then back off, wait for another 2 hrs, I can just feel the water retention slowly creep up, and I tend to bloat or just become fuller. The introduction of the zig-zag also plays a role as well.

 

[Merciless]

Wow man, thats awesome. 45 years old? damn...lookin very good, congrats

 

[~LV~]

Nice and lean....nice job man.

 

[stroutman81]

Look great man. Will you ever bulk?

 

[Chillen]

To be honest, and to tell on myself, Im scared to. I have thought about it many times. My body responds well both ways (losing and gaining fat, on the bulk side and gaining more muscle size, I am not really sure).

Stout, what would you recommend I do at this point if I were to bulk in current conditions? On the calorie side, I have to be careful,cause, my body will gladly put fat deposits back on happily, and lose it just has happily, and to a point this is a good bodily thing to have. (LOL). +300 over MT, increase carb, protein intake. Lift abit heavier. I can give more info if you'd like. I always felt I was too old to "Bulk" (telling on myself again), and play like the younger generation (bulk and cut, etc).

Nothing is completely out, I have the will to do it. Just have to be careful. Currently I am on a Zig-zag diet (5D--2S), and experimenting with my bodies response (on the 2s, its +350 over). Been this way for about 2 weeks (no wgt gain, but lifts have been progressive in nature), and its this type of feed back Im looking for: where I am or am not gaining at this equation, and make adjustments. I really bloat on the +350 days, I tend to swell, but the the diet is normal as before, with the exception of increasing complex carbs on big lift days. My weight has stayed reletively the same for about 3 months (but higher depth deficit diet), but fat loss has occurred (and was my goal). This tells me that the weight training (and body) is maintaining the muscle as it can and they both sort of offset. This also tells me, that I am close to the MT line on the caloric side.

Your educated input would be valuable, thanks in advance.

 

[mboylan86]

congrats bud, im only startin to see my abs and i was happy

 

[stroutman81]

To be honest, and to tell on myself, Im scared to. I have thought about it many times. My body responds well both ways (losing and gaining fat, on the bulk side and gaining more muscle size, I am not really sure).

Most people who lose more fat than muscle on a cut will respond "pleasantly" too in a surplus by gaining more muscle than fat.

I'd imagine you are naturally lean. By that, I mean without proper diet and training, you'd still be relatively lean. This would indicate a good partioning ratio, which in turn would indicate the efficacy of a bulk for you.

I know guys your age who consistently cycle their bulks andn cuts.

Stout, what would you recommend I do at this point if I were to bulk in current conditions? On the calorie side, I have to be careful,cause, my body will gladly put fat deposits back on happily, and lose it just has happily, and to a point this is a good bodily thing to have.

When, if ever, have you bulked before. You say you've put fat on before, but were you actually trying to build muscle?

A calorie surplus coupled with retarded lifestyles = fatass

A calorie surplus coupled with proper lifestyles = combination of muscle and fat gain

No matter what, you are going to add some fat while/if you bulk. From the looks of you, I'd say not much. But still, you have to get rid of the notion that your impressive abs mean so much. I'd be much more impressed with your physique if you weighed 190-200 and were as lean as you are now.... and that is not to discredit your current physique.

I might add, if you are happy with your current physique and size, don't bulk. I am strictly speaking from my own personal preferences.

Anyhoo, when I go into my bulks slowly. I go from a cut, to maintenance, where I remain for a week or two. I then slowly up my cals on a bi-weekly basis and monitor the various measurements. It's a very "touch and feel" process.

+300 over MT, increase carb, protein intake. Lift abit heavier. I can give more info if you'd like.

Again, calorie intake with regards to bulking is going to be a very individual thing. When I was your size, I had to go well into the 20's calories per pound in order to gain any appreciable amount of weight. I used to be taking in 25 calories per pound of body weight.

I certainly eat more carbs on a bulk.

I actually decrease my protein intake. Protein requirements rise as you diet. Fall as you bulk.

No, I don't lift heavier. If anything, I lift heavier when I diet. Lifting heavy while dieting corresponds with muscle maintenance. When bulking, the heavy component/core still remains in the routine. However, I add more accessory work and add additional rep ranges.

Nothing is completely out, I have the will to do it. Just have to be careful. Currently I am on a Zig-zag diet (5D--2S), and experimenting with my bodies response (on the 2s, its +350 over). Been this way for about 2 weeks (no wgt gain, but lifts have been progressive in nature), and its this type of feed back Im looking for: where I am or am not gaining at this equation, and make adjustments.

If you were able to get as lean as you currently are without any form of cyclical dieting or refeeding, you have good genetics.

Most, to get to your level of leanness have to introduce some form of "dietary gimmick" to out-smart your body into giving up additional body fat.

 

[Chillen]

Thank you Stoutman for responding.

I appreciate the time you had taken.

Before I started training, I never lifted weights or dieted before, and ate like crap, and over 20 years, I just gained about 25lbs extra and evolved back pain, and hence, I wised up and got on track about one year and 3 months ago. This told me some things about myself. I also had some important organ functions checked (thyroid, etc), and there normal according to my Dr.

Yes, I could just diet (alone) and get lean. In addition, there was a 8 week period (last year) where I got stupid (LOL), and really didnt look at the data correctly, and did in fact try to bulk (I just flat ate too much, but it was clean), on average it was about 3,000c (no cardio, or ab work, just progressive heavy training, mind you this was after several months of dieting).

I gained an inch and 1/4 on my arms, 2 inches on my chest, and overall to make this short, ALOT of fat (about 7 of the 10lbs gained approximately: or 165/166): Im smarter now, and understand what the aforementioned indicates (caloric wise). In addtition, like most older men, I tend to carry (if I have a high BF%, some pectorial fat deposit near the nipple, and didnt like how I looked, and this changed back permanantly since then). So, yes I have tried to bulk before (erroroniosly, I might add, but I learned a great deal from it, and it was not a total loss)

I agree, I have to just get over the abs if I try to bulk (this I can mentally do without a problem), and understand why this is the case. Geesh, 190 to 200lbs at 5' 7" Id be a fricken monster, LOL. But, I understand your point aview on this point.

I never had to really try to fool my body with the exception of just changing my 24H diet cycle from time to time. The deficit diet works real well. In addtion, though I factor in the approximate cardio cals (35m) when I say Im at the UPPER end of the caloric deficit (-300, even with cardio, I mean), cardio response seems VERY GOOD from my body.


I understand your points on the carbs and proteins on bulking and the point on training and rep schemes when bulking.

On the brief period (8 week "Stupid" bulk phase): my weights on my lifts shot up like a rocket, progressed very nicely in reps and in weights per exercise. First two weeks or so, my body swelled up, and I nearly gained (probably mostly water), 8 pounds, and then it tapered off, and then balanced out at about 10 overall at then end. The 3,000c would on average (without getting to specific and this could change due to differing activity), be about +500 to 650 (and a bit more at times), over MT--dependent on activities factored in.

If I properly bulk, this time. What could be a "proper" ratio of muscle to fat, from what you know of myself. What could I expect approximately. As for leaning afterwards, I think I got that down as far as ratios of calories and nutrients, etc.

But on the opposite end, I dont quite have things narrowed down BUT, I do have my MT line pegged with current activities, and have an idea where to flex the calories between based on what I am doing. My thinking of course is just introduce enough to gain while minimizing the fat gain as much as possible, by controlling the surplus, and then making clear adjustments as I get feedback from the body.

For example on the deficit side of the equation: Today is an off day from work, most of the calories burned today will be from sleep, awake hours, cardio (x2), and bi work. Todays calculated NEED or MT line is about 2,350 (a bit under estimated), and its lower becasue I am not working today. I would of course eat clean, and provde the deficit off of this or -300, or be at about 2,000. I like the higher end. I could work on this portion to devise a caloric bulk, correct? Even with stepping up cardio (alot, and thats an understatement), I have not lost any appreciable amount of muscle. Like I said, my wgt has stayed the same, but I have lost some fat overall, with the goal really the lower end, and the results are slower but I have lost in that area, and is working. The fat loss is slower albeit because the deficit isnt that great, but the idea is to stay a bit higher to TRY to prevent muscle loss. My primary concern is just getting the caloric calculations correct as this will be the driving force behind it as to the ratio of muscle to fat gain.

On the rep scheme: are you saying maybe in the area of 6/8 to 10/12 in this general area when bulking? Would this ratio be for the big lifts (chest, back, squats) and not small (Bi, tri, ect)? or a blanket, and of course, a progressive set forward

Stout, I know this post is long, but I have been wanting to bulk for some time. My body even in its deficit caloric state isnt wanting to let go of the muscle it has, and this does tell me something of course. And, two weeks into the zig-zag, or 2 days of surplus versus 5 deficit, the body STILL isnt wanting to gain appreciable amount. Which like I said, I know this because I have a keen eye, and know that it may be necessary to make an adjustment (this is really my attempt, small one, to gain some good weight, while trying to eliminate or reduce fat accumulation), without being STUPID like I was the last time. I learned from my past mistakes.

 

[stroutman81]

Geesh, 190 to 200lbs at 5' 7" Id be a fricken monster, LOL. But, I understand your point aview on this point.

I did not realize you were 5'7. You'd look awesome even at a lean 180.

I never had to really try to fool my body with the exception of just changing my 24H diet cycle from time to time. The deficit diet works real well.

Genetically you are blessed. For many, just to get below setpoint and maintain it, it takes all kind of trickery.

On the brief period (8 week "Stupid" bulk phase): my weights on my lifts shot up like a rocket, progressed very nicely in reps and in weights per exercise. First two weeks or so, my body swelled up, and I nearly gained (probably mostly water), 8 pounds, and then it tapered off, and then balanced out at about 10 overall at then end. The 3,000c would on average (without getting to specific and this could change due to differing activity), be about +500 to 650 (and a bit more at times), over MT--dependent on activities factored in.

If I properly bulk, this time. What could be a "proper" ratio of muscle to fat, from what you know of myself. What could I expect approximately. As for leaning afterwards, I think I got that down as far as ratios of calories and nutrients, etc.

My thinking of course is just introduce enough to gain while minimizing the fat gain as much as possible, by controlling the surplus, and then making clear adjustments as I get feedback from the body.

This is exactly what you need to do.

Today is an off day from work, most of the calories burned today will be from sleep, awake hours, cardio (x2), and bi work.

You have a day dedicated to working only your bis?

Todays calculated NEED or MT line is about 2,350 (a bit under estimated), and its lower becasue I am not working today. I would of course eat clean, and provde the deficit off of this or -300, or be at about 2,000.

Eating clean sits in the back seat to caloric intake. FYI. It sounds like you have your caloric intake figured out for you. However, most people think they need to eat insanely "clean" in order to get shredded. It simply isn't so. Once you baseline required variables are in check (protein, efas, etc) you can deviate from the traditional "clean" foods that many people live and die by.

Don't get me wrong, the traditional "clean" foods are ideal from a health perspective..... but most (I don't think you) need to throw in some "dirty" foods to maintain sanity. I know I do.

I like the higher end. I could work on this portion to devise a caloric bulk, correct?

Yes.

Just as you like the high end of a deficit, you should start with the low end of a bulk. Monitor/track and adapt as needed.

 

[amp89]

looking great man. Don't have any advice for you, but I was wondering how the zig zag diet you're doing has worked out, and if any others on the forum have opinions about it, as opposed to bulking and cutting periods.

 

[Chillen]

I have a habit of switching around my routine about every 3 to 4 weeks or so. Thanks for responding.

There are times, I will do back (bent over rows, with hands up and down) with bi's the same day, and then switch and do bi/tri on same day (after a few weeks), rest entire body one day, and then squat by self (right now its squat/chest), and so on and so forth. Each part presently gets about 5 to 6 days of rest before I break it down again. My muscles are more than willing to get it on, and can recover in only about 4 days, but tendons are not, so I allow an additional day or two for tendon/joint recovery.

So, yes right now I do have only bi's focus (every 4 days). They are strong as hell for my size, but growing they are not. I think we can understand why.
I have tried differing rep schemes, low, mid, and high (for about 6 weeks each to give it time to see if it would work), but I tend to progress in rep and weight when the weight is heavier, just a tad faster.

Currently, I do: 3s, at 5 to 9, and when the first set reaches 9, I add +5, to the first set, then go back to the previous for the 2nd and 3rd, NEXT, is the first two +5, and so on. That is the current training method on the bis with preacher.

The 2nd exercise is the standing curl (I use a straight bar), and I do 2s at the same rep ranges and progressive system.

I have used supersets, etc. I tend to stay with compounds lifts more. Do you think maybe doing some DB's concentration type work (at the higher rep range would peak it more). I have studied the proper ways to do the aforementioned excercises, so I believe I am doing this correct.

Your input would be appreciated. But the bi's do STINK as do my legs (but there strong, and I have progressively done squats for one year, and progressed very nice, but growth, not happenen to my satisfaction) The tris on the other hand are a different story for a small guy. The core responds real well, but the smaller (bi) muscles do not (exception tri), and largest muscle (legs) seem to lag in growth, but not in strength progression. My legs look like I couldnt kick a cat (lol), but yet, I can squat 300lbs. More than twice my weight (for example only). Chest looks fine (albeit small) its the same way, max (for example only) is 310 now (and weighing 154-156 ( this is good). My point is I tend to grow IN STRENGTH than growth, even IN deficit (the culprit). I have a very strange muscle response arrangement in my body I am trying to figure out.

I dont need "Non-Clean" foods 99.5% of the time, and when the need does occur, and I mentally allow it, it STILL fits in the caloric equation. However, there are exceptions: Xmas, Thanksgiving, and Easter, and an occasional cookout. HOWEVER, (lol), I have a personal program in place for these periods, where I gain nor lose, and by providing an "OFF SET" subsquent each holiday or event, without question. I know I could eat 4,000c (one day), and it wont KILL ME (LOL), and probably not see negative effects. I dont know whats harder, getting lean or maintaining it once one is there. They are both battles in themselves

 

[mike79]

nice work

 

[dougp25]

Looking awesome man!

 

[Chillen]

Also, for what its worth, stout, I never ever took any supplements during this entire time, with the exception, of flax seed oil and fish oil gels. Might be interesting if I took Creatine (ester), or what you may recommend, if anything.

 

[SmithMachine]

Yo chillen how long did it take to get to that level and what where u before ? and cant wait to put pictures up of my self i am changing tons its awesome i just need some sort of camera lol

 

[Chillen]

Hey, Smithmachine!

If you look in the introduction thread, I posted a March 03, 2006 (about 10lbs of fat left), but I was about 2 months into my diet and training then, approx.

I had a minor stint of "stupidness" last year, when I approached bulking in the wrong manner. (8 weeks). My fat loss was SLOW on purpose. I can give a more acurate depiction after I do cardio (in about 5 min I start), but off my cuff, I would say all total, ending in December 17, pic (which is also in same thread), about 6 to 7 months, with upper caloric rages (-300), weeding out the 8 week period, and weeks prior to march 03, 06. It could have been faster, if I held higher deficits, but I didnt want to make the other sacrifices this would bring.

 

[Proteinboy]

dude. very nice progress. you are amazing at 45. *applause*

 

[lothores]

You look great. Being the same height and weight as you, I get a lot of encouragement from your results.

 

[Chillen]

Your post encourages me, cause it encourages YOU! Spreading encouragement is a fantastic thing! NOW..........ROCK FORWARD!

 

[(Silent)]

Chillen, You might consider swapping your current avatar with the attached image below. I took the liberty of "Croping" the image to replace the fairly obvious "annoyance" in your current one...