Thinking of cardio after lifting...

[Gags1892]

Hey everyone. For the longest time, I've done fasted LISS (low intensity steady state) a.m. Cardio (works great). Then, I head to the gym late afternoon for my weight session. However, since I'm a cllege student, this requires me to get up 5:30 most mornings to get my run in before class--its definately starting to take a toll on me!

I've been thinking about cardio after weights because its the 2nd best time to do cardio for max fat-burn since the body is glycogen-deprived. Just some questions lingering:

1.) How long should the sessions be?
2.) At what intensity?
3.) Is this as effective as cardio done alone in the morning?
4.) Will cardio after lifting impair muscle growth?
5 .) When would one take their post-workout shake/meal if cardio is done after weights?

Thanks a lot! Hope I can get some insight!

 

[theleip]

1.) How long should the sessions be?
15-20mins max

2.) At what intensity?
Moderate to High Intensity Interval Training

3.) Is this as effective as cardio done alone in the morning?
Just as effective if not more so. LISS fasted cardio has more of a chance of eating into muscle.

4.) Will cardio after lifting impair muscle growth?

No, IF you provide yourself with proper re-fuel immediately after cardio session with a 2:1 ratio of simple carbohydrates and fast acting protein (ie: Shake)

5 .) When would one take their post-workout shake/meal if cardio is done after weights?

Right after cardio if completed. It would also be wise to take in a little shake during your lifting session itself. If you are training for more than 45 mins at a time be it lifting or cardio, EVEN if working for fat loss, there needs to be a slight re-fuel in the middle to provide you with correct energy and protection. Remember fat loss is about overall negative energy, you can not "burn" into fat.

 

[Gags1892]

thanks, leigh. I never workout more than 35-40 minutes, I keep my rests to about 30 seconds between sets.

Another q---my PWO consists of a NECTAR protein shake (23g pro/0g carbs), and 6 rice cakes (66g carbs) so I keep a solid 3:1 ratio. I've tried a bunch of other PWO remedies, but this one actually works great for me...

Would this be ok to consume if I switch to cardio after lifting?

 

[theleip]

*preface this answer is for optimizing training*

Post workout w/cardio you really want almost full on liquid re-fuel. If you want to do a 3:1 ratio then I would take a 2:1 Shake and have about 22 grams worth of rice cake.

 

[Gags1892]

ok--what could i add to the shake to make it a 2:1? (no dextrose available)

 

[Wrangell]

Hey everyone. For the longest time, I've done fasted LISS (low intensity steady state) a.m. Cardio (works great). Then, I head to the gym late afternoon for my weight session. However, since I'm a cllege student, this requires me to get up 5:30 most mornings to get my run in before class--its definately starting to take a toll on me!

I've been thinking about cardio after weights because its the 2nd best time to do cardio for max fat-burn since the body is glycogen-deprived. Just some questions lingering:

1.) How long should the sessions be?

You can do the same length of session after your weights just as you do in the morning if you want. If you can still handle a LISS or a HIIT after your weight workout, then go for it.



2.) At what intensity?

If you want to save time, do HIIT - usually no longer than 30 minutes. If time is not an issue, you can also do your LISS if you want to ( and are able to ) .


3.) Is this as effective as cardio done alone in the morning?

Yes. There is no " significant " benefit to doing either HIIT or LISS either in the morning or in afternoon.


4.) Will cardio after lifting impair muscle growth?

NO. I suspect you are simply trying to " maintain " your current muscle and not " grow " muscle at the same time as you're trying to cut fat. Gaining significant muscle mass and fat loss at the same time is virtually impossible to do. So long as your eat 5-6+ meals a day with adequate daily calories to sustain your workouts, take in enough carbs to keep yopur glycogen stores topped up and enough amino acids in your system 24/7 you'll be fine.


5 .) When would one take their post-workout shake/meal if cardio is done after weights?

In your case, assuming you are eating properly ( carbs and protien ) throughout the day, you could get away with having a shake just before your weight workout and just a light snack of some sort of carbs after your cardio.

 

[Gags1892]

wrangell: I meant to ask if it's as effective as cardio fasted because a.m. your body is glycogen-deprived, just as after you lift weights. my only concern is that sleep is GUARENTEED to leave you with a very low-glycogen store, whereas a workout might not empty glycogen as effectively as sleep? (depending on your workout, so it varies from person to person)

any thoughts on this? (I know im probably overanalyzing, im just very crazy with my cardio---I want to MAX fat loss, as im at 11% or so, and i need to lose a bit more)

 

[theleip]

There is some problems with Wrangells advice but my main concern is this...
You have to have a post workout meal after training period but especially if doing lifting+aerobic training.

As for this...

my only concern is that sleep is GUARENTEED to leave you with a very low-glycogen store, whereas a workout might not empty glycogen as effectively as sleep? (depending on your workout, so it varies from person to person)

When you sleep you are burning off of almost pure fat, it is a myth that you have emptied your glycogen stores as you sleep. Fasted cardio is a very tricky subject and the method is not for everyone. That being said, AGAIN if you just focus on overall energy utilized then you will lose the fat.

 

[Wrangell]

wrangell: I meant to ask if it's as effective as cardio fasted because a.m. your body is glycogen-deprived, just as after you lift weights.

Don't forget, if you are eating properly every day, you should be replentishing your glycogen stores within 20 hours of your last workout. It is very hard to become " glycogen-deprived " if you're doing that cause between your blood sugar, liver and muscles you've got around 2,000 calories in your system to draw energy from..and don't forget, it's glycogen that is stored in your muscles whether to train on an empty stomach or not. And, if most of your cardio doesn't wind you ( i.e get you out of breath ) most of your fuel is fat based anyway.

So assume you start your day with topped up glycogen stores - i.e 2,000 +/- calories available - your weight session will draw on maybe 300 calories of that and your HIIT - maybe another 300 ? Total of 600. On your LISS - perhaps 500 ? Total of say 800 - again, no where near being " glycogen-deprived " .

my only concern is that sleep is GUARENTEED to leave you with a very low-glycogen store, whereas a workout might not empty glycogen as effectively as sleep? (depending on your workout, so it varies from person to person).

No, you're confusing glycogen ( stored in your muscles ) with low blood sugar - glucose energy found in your blood. So long as you're eating every 2.5 hours - and taking in enough calories each day - plus a small snack before and after each workout - you're fine. No worries.

any thoughts on this? (I know im probably overanalyzing, im just very crazy with my cardio---I want to MAX fat loss, as im at 11% or so, and i need to lose a bit more)

First of all - congrats on the 11%. Well done - that's an excellent body fat % !!!!. That's " 6 pack country "

Well, if you are in very good cardio shape already and are dead serious about shredding fat to be ready for summer so you turn heads ( i.e June 1 ) ..... 2 things I would do if it were me. First - weight train hard 3X a week and make sure you take in at least about 20 calories per pound of bodyweight while you doing it Second, screw the LISS - do HIIT 5X a week after each weight workout and or on it's own. . And by HIIT - I mean go hard. Work intervals of 1 minute for as hard as you can take - i.e get your MHR up tp 85% - 90% - and rest intervals of 2 minutes. If 1 minute is to hard, do what you can but keep it at a 1:2 work/rest ratio. Do at least 4 1:2 sets per session.

 

[Gags1892]

For Leigh:

wow that's really interesting. i didn't know that...if it's a myth, why do sources of health information continue to preach it that way? fasted, LISS has worked amazing for me, maybe that's why I'm so apprehensive about switching to post-workout cardio! im gonna feel fat when I wake up and don't run tomorrow morning lol..

and for Wrengell:
Thanks a lot for your compliments---that means a lot--Some people even say im at 10%--BUT NO ABS YET! IT'S ABSURD! thats why my goal for fat loss continues lol...people who have seen pics even said to stop cutting unless im preparing for a show---I DONT BODYBUILD lol. it's just so frustrating.

for the HIIT: I've done it before, and the LISS works better for me for losing fat. HIIT cut into my muscle stores too much

so to re-cap:
1. lift for 35-40 mins
2. LISS for 15-20 mins (4.5-5.0 on treadmill)
3. PWO shake

(PS- any recommendations of what to add to my shake worth 46g of high-GI, fast-digesting carbs? no dextrose around either!)

 

[Wrangell]

There is some problems with Wrangells advice but my main concern is this...
You have to have a post workout meal after training period but especially if doing lifting+aerobic training.

No..he doesn't.

He CAN have a meal afterwards if he wants-...but since he isn't focused on gaining mass and glycogen replacement rate isn't an issue for him either ( i.e he isn't running a 10k each day ) he doesn't HAVE TO have it afterwards. A small meal/snack/shake with some carbs and protien before his training is fine, it keeps amino acids in his system for muscle repair afterwards and since he hasn't even come close to depleting his glycogen stores there is no urgency for a post workout hit of carbs within 15 minutes ( - " the window " ) of finishing cardio - if he eats every 2.5 hours ( and eats enough ) he'll be easily topped up within 20 hours ( if not well before )

 

[Wrangell]

For Leigh:

and for Wrengell:
Thanks a lot for your compliments---that means a lot--Some people even say im at 10%--BUT NO ABS YET! IT'S ABSURD! thats why my goal for fat loss continues lol...people who have seen pics even said to stop cutting unless im preparing for a show---I DONT BODYBUILD lol. it's just so frustrating.

for the HIIT: I've done it before, and the LISS works better for me for losing fat. HIIT cut into my muscle stores too much

That is my point. If you are eating enough calories, HIIT and muscle loss isn't an issue. If you are SERIOUS about shredding fat in the most optimal way, HIIT is the way to go IMO.To lose fat , the idea is to burn calories via exercise or enhanced metabolism or both. To be an effective calorie burn, LISS is more like 60 minutes IMO - not 15-20 minutes. In a nutshell, you get a much bigger bang for your buck - fat loss wise - doing 20 minutes of HIIT vs 20 minutes of LISS...so why not do HIIT ? . Despite what you may think about LISS, there simply is no way LISS of 20 minutes is better than 20 minutes of HIIT " for losing fat "

so to re-cap:
1. lift for 35-40 mins
2. LISS for 15-20 mins (4.5-5.0 on treadmill)
3. PWO shake

(PS- any recommendations of what to add to my shake worth 46g of high-GI, fast-digesting carbs? no dextrose around either!)

Again, you aren't coming anywhere close to depleting your glycogen stores, and you'll probably be re-fuelled to your max glycogens stores within 15 hours anyway without having a post workout shake, so why would you need so many grams of a " high-GI, fast-digesting carbs " PWO ?

 

[Gags1892]

just to show where I'm at...I don't know why Im so worried about making this switch to post-lifting cardio. My reference to HIIT was because the period of time I was doing HIIT, I became incredibly frail-looking. My friends began to worry about me, I looked way too skinny, and I eat the SAME exact thing I do now. So if I workout the same, and eat the same, the only thing that's changed is my cardio---and at HIIT, I looked truly malnourished. When switching to LISS, I looked much more healthier. The amount of calories burned isn't as great for 20 mins, but the amount of FAT calories burned is significant.

 

[theleip]

Wrangell-Wrong on so many points.

First no one should be doing HIIT 5x a week. If you are doing correct HIIT (which what you are describing is not) it is WAY to taxing on the CNS and would burn someone out to quickly.

As far as post workout nutrition while refilling glycogen stores are a concern, there are so many other factors in to why post workout nutrition is important immediately following a workout ranging from muscle repair, less chance for DOMS, better CNS function and neurological read, etc. If you don't not have a fast acting simple sugar, you don't have the boat to carry the repair, understand?

Gags-As far as HIIT burning into your muscle, well that is a bizarre concept being that it is better protecting of muscle as far as aerobic training is concerned than LISS. I would likely believe more that these sessions were burning more calories then you were accounting for and your overall daily caloric intake was to low, there for causing you to eat into some of your muscle.

Bottom line-

-Cardio is not the answer to fat loss, nutrition is really going to be your big player at this point of body fat.
-Hit Those weights hard and don't do those splits anymore
-Get in, go hard, repair right, and really stick to a program. IF you don't give yourself over to a program and trust it, you aren't going to get anywhere with it, you are just going to be another A.D.D fat loss victim.

 

[Gags1892]

Thanks a lot Leigh! I truly appreciate all of your time and input, and sorry if I caused any frustration---just someone trying to figure out the ropes of the nutritional world! I will definately do what you suggest, and hope for the best!

EDIT: hey Leigh, how is Vitargo for PWO? I can't find anywhere around me that sells dex/malto.

 

[Wrangell]

Wrangell-Wrong on so many points.

First no one should be doing HIIT 5x a week. If you are doing correct HIIT (which what you are describing is not) it is WAY to taxing on the CNS and would burn someone out to quickly.

Well, I disagree....though I concede frequent HIIT isn't for everyone.

If you are taking in enough calories, keeping your total HIIT session time short enough, managing your work and rest intervals properly, you've got a solid aerobic base , doing HIIT 5X a week isn't an issue IMO. Mind you it IS serious training and should be spread out over 7 days. And you're right, it depends on how you define HIIT and whether you focus on issues of VO2max, MHR, and interval times to guide your training. For example, I don't think the interval protocols used in the Tabata or Tremblay studies translate well to everything when it comes to sports or the average gym rat trying to lose weight ( fat ). For example, during my time in university hockey we did a lot of pre-season HIIT sessions at 1;1, 1:2 or 1:3 ratios at 85% MHR 5X a week ( i.e over 7 days ).

As far as post workout nutrition while refilling glycogen stores are a concern

Well, it isn't a concern is this persons' case ( assuming he is eating properly and frequently ) as he isn't coming anywhere close to depleting his glycogen stores by doing very low intensity LISS of 20 minutes and weight training.

there are so many other factors in to why post workout nutrition is important immediately following a workout ranging from muscle repair

I already touched on that. If he is eating properly throughout the day or even has a snack before his work out he has ample amino acids in his system to deal with any issues of " muscle repair " post workout. Again, he can have a shake after a workout if he wants to, but if he his getting his .9 grams of protein per pound of body weight throughout the day, there is no amino acid issue at play that says he HAS to. That is my point.

less chance for DOMS, better CNS function and neurological read, etc.

DOMS usually occurs for most gym rats due to over-training or using muscles that have not been in use for awhile etc. - neither of which seem to be an issue in this case. In any event, my point is, the sky is not going to fall - DOMS or otherwise - in if there isn't a shake taken immediately after a workout

If you don't not have a fast acting simple sugar, you don't have the boat to carry the repair, understand?

You need carbs for tissue synthesis - correct, and if you eat properly throughout the day you meet most of your needs in this regard.

Gags-As far as HIIT burning into your muscle, well that is a bizarre concept being that it is better protecting of muscle as far as aerobic training is concerned than LISS. I would likely believe more that these sessions were burning more calories then you were accounting for and your overall daily caloric intake was to low, there for causing you to eat into some of your muscle.

Bottom line-

-Cardio is not the answer to fat loss, nutrition is really going to be your big player at this point of body fat.
-Hit Those weights hard and don't do those splits anymore
-Get in, go hard, repair right, and really stick to a program. IF you don't give yourself over to a program and trust it, you aren't going to get anywhere with it, you are just going to be another A.D.D fat loss victim.

Again, I would simpy add cardio to the mix you mentioned above.

I would say the key to " optimal fat loss " is achieved through a combo of diet / nutrition, weight training and cardio.

 

[theleip]

What you aren't understanding is all the complex function that occurs in the body after a session like this.

You aren't understanding how intensive REAL HIIT is which is what I recommend to THIS poster.

You aren't understanding advanced physiological effects on the body post workout and the importance of immediate nutrition.

Does this average person who goes to the gym and does a couple of leg extension, 10 mins on the stair climber and 100 sit ups need to take in a source of fuel like this post workout? No, they will receive repair for the minimal work they did from their daily food sources.

Does an aggressive lifter who does a solid Full Body Workout session with compound movements and THEN 15 mins of real HIIT need immediate nutritional repair? Bet your ass they do if they want to...

-Protect/encourage muscle growth while in a deficit
-Enhance protein synthesis
-Refill (Dramatically) decreased glycogen stores
-Decrease chance for injury and over training
-Decrease chance of insulin resistance especially while in caloric deficit
-Avoid a catabolic state, the faster you halt or even avoid protein breakdown is the sooner you step into protein synthesis the sooner you hit the golden spot of repair.

This is just touching the iceburg, don't think I am picking on you, I am informing. If you wish to check into things further on you own I highly recommend doing some research into Nutrition and Physiology Journals (much more reliable then textbooks) and checking into the work of John Berardi, also some good stuff to be found on T-Nation.

 

[Gags1892]

Hey Leigh,

Just picked up Vitargo CGL to add with my PWO protein. 2 scoops is 60 grams of fast-digesting carbs, so combineds with my whey shake, it's almost a perfect 3:1 ratio...and all liquid to ensure efficient and quick absorbance.

So should I ocnsume this immediately after my LISS after weights?

 

[theleip]

Thanks a lot Leigh! I truly appreciate all of your time and input, and sorry if I caused any frustration---just someone trying to figure out the ropes of the nutritional world! I will definately do what you suggest, and hope for the best!

EDIT: hey Leigh, how is Vitargo for PWO? I can't find anywhere around me that sells dex/malto.

If looking to buy some dex you can always get it here for 2 bucks.

Bodybuilding.com - NOW Dextrose - Corn Sugar! On sale now!

As far as other options you can also use powdered gatorade. Some protein pancakes with pure maple syrup are never a bad option either. I do that often and just travel with the pancake, little container, and dip away.

There are a lot of options, it doesn't have to be dextrose is what I am saying, you can also use pure unrefined plain ole sugar.

As far as Vitargo...

Save your money and choose one of the above options

 

[theleip]

Hey Leigh,

Just picked up Vitargo CGL to add with my PWO protein. 2 scoops is 60 grams of fast-digesting carbs, so combineds with my whey shake, it's almost a perfect 3:1 ratio...and all liquid to ensure efficient and quick absorbance.

So should I ocnsume this immediately after my LISS after weights?

Yeah try to get it in as soon as possible and you are good to go. Still not a fan of that LISS after lifting though But you stick to whatever works for you and good luck. Don't let all this confuse you to much, this is about OPTIMAL protection and nutrition. This is abut OPTIMAL fat loss settings, you will lose the fat period if you watch your energy in and out, this will just help protect that muscle