Success

You made one assumption that dictated an incorrect response.... that being the idea that I don't find long term goals (destinations) important.

Steve,

I actually made no such assumption. My response was simply in disagreeing with the statement that one has to be in love with the steps.

I think we are in total agreement regarding journey and goals otherwise. I think it is fairly obvious that you are a goal-oriented achiever who is appreciating his journey. Maybe that's the difference...you have to be able to appreciate the steps and the journey even if you don't love every aspect of it.

Please don't take offense to my previous post...it was not intended to offend. In fact, I love this post that you started.

Jen
 
Steve,

I actually made no such assumption. My response was simply in disagreeing with the statement that one has to be in love with the steps.

I think we are in total agreement regarding journey and goals otherwise. I think it is fairly obvious that you are a goal-oriented achiever who is appreciating his journey. Maybe that's the difference...you have to be able to appreciate the steps and the journey even if you don't love every aspect of it.

Please don't take offense to my previous post...it was not intended to offend. In fact, I love this post that you started.

Jen

First thing first. You will almost NEVER see me get emotionally tied to a discussion/debate. Not that we are arguing, but a friend of mine said this and I think it is very wise:

An argument debates an issue, not the people arguing. If you get emotionally attached to an argument, you've already lost.

So please realize, you are not going to offend me. I like being challenged actually, even though I don't think you were doing that now.

So you don't think you should enjoy the steps, is that what you are saying?
 
That's not what I said.......

Steve-

I did not say that you should not enjoy the steps. I just do not think that enjoying every step is a prerequisite for success. Hell, if you happen to enjoy every step you take on a journey, great. But, if you do not enjoy every step, it does not make the journey less worthwhile or your goal less attainable.

I think you're trying to get an argument out of me by twisting my words. That's okay, though...this is the most fun I've had on this forum yet. I love a good argument.

Actually, I respect your opinion, and I have read much of what you've posted in the past. I think that you provide sound advice and good scientific background for your thoughts. I am a scientist by nature, so I tend to gravitate towards objective information like you have outlined in many of your posts. Keep it coming.

Jen
 
Steve-

I did not say that you should not enjoy the steps. I just do not think that enjoying every step is a prerequisite for success. Hell, if you happen to enjoy every step you take on a journey, great. But, if you do not enjoy every step, it does not make the journey less worthwhile or your goal less attainable.

I think you're trying to get an argument out of me by twisting my words. That's okay, though...this is the most fun I've had on this forum yet. I love a good argument.

Actually, I respect your opinion, and I have read much of what you've posted in the past. I think that you provide sound advice and good scientific background for your thoughts. I am a scientist by nature, so I tend to gravitate towards objective information like you have outlined in many of your posts. Keep it coming.

Jen

Haha. I am really not looking to argue. This would be the last topic I would argue over on a forum such as this. However, your definition of an argument may be slightly different than mine. Now, if you want to dispute some of my training theories, by all means, bring it on. I could have fun "arguing that. :D

In the "discussion" at hand, it seems as if you are talking in absolutes. "Enjoying the journey isn't a requirement to achieve success."

Right?

If we are speaking of absolutes, I would agree.

However, I am not speaking on the same level as you, which is why I think we are going back and fourth. Ya see, I like to optimize approaches toward success. Where you don't necessarily NEED to enjoy the journey, I think it is optimal not only for adherence, but also mental health and stability.

Using fitness and weight loss as an example, since we are in a forum based on these things. Who do you think is going to have a more enjoyable experience and have better chances of actually reaching their destinations?

Person A who never learns to enjoy the ride or person B who accepts, and eventually likes the actual steps one must take to succeed?

Now I am assuming something.

People can learn to like/love something that they previously had no interest in or even hated. Why do I assume this? Because I have been helping people reach their fitness goals for a large majority of my life and I have seen it time and time again. When something is proven empirically time and time again, I tend to believe it.

Also, thanks for the kind words. :)
 
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Steve-

I think you are absolutely correct that the person who enjoys the journey will be more certain to achieve the goal. Given the background of a weight loss and fitness forum, I think that someone can absolutely "learn" to enjoy things that might have previously been deemed unpleasant. And, there is no doubt, that the person will have more success than another who might be simply trudging through.

However, I was thinking of the idea of successes in a more general sense, in all realms of one's life. I know there are examples where the person cannot necessarily learn to enjoy the journey. Let me give you a personal example. One of my own greatest successes is my medical degree. It was also an enormous challenge, and I don't know of anyone who ever became a physician and "enjoyed" every step of the training. My training involved sleepless 48 hour shifts away from my husband and children. It involved suffering and death of wonderful gifted individuals who still had so much to offer the world. It involved mental and physical stress, and enormous sacrifice. So, maybe you are in a field where the journey to success can become a 100% enjoyable experience for some people. I, however, am not. But the fact that there were bad experiences that helped to shape my journey does not discount my success in any way. Like I said before, the fact that I was able to get past these experiences really strengthened my character.

As an aside, I am actually trying to become one of those people who enjoys the journey to total fitness. I'm getting there.

Jen
 
Wow, I just reread my post from last night..... I really butchered it, haha. I was tired! :eek:

Anyhow, I also don't think you need to enjoy every step along the way. I think I may have said that above somewhere, and you took it literally. It is impossible to enjoy everything all the time, or life would be perfect.

Sticking with the fitness example and using myself. Some would say I have been successful in building a good physique. I did so naturally, and it was by no means a fun road 100% of the time. I had injury, surgery, I missed fun nights out with the guys b/c I did not want to drink, I missed amazing meals. Sacrifice is part of the journey. I think it is part of ANY journey.

However, I think there are always two sides of sacrifice. The painful side and the pleasant side. I think there is pain and pleasure attached to pretty much everything in life. I also think that you have the option to focus on either the pain or the pleasure. On top of this, I think that it is one of the most important decisions in your life as to what you place your focus on. One will pull you forward, the other will push you backward.

If I focused on how much I had to sacrifice to get to where I am today, I might question if my actions were worth it. However, thankfully we have the choice of what we set out "mental sites" on. In my case, I focus on the feelings of power I felt when I avoided temptation to eat that meal, drink that beer, or skip that workout. Focus on the pleasure you get, even from the painful steps, and you will succeed 9 times out of 10.

And as I am typing this, maybe you and I are feeling the same all along. I think we are both bringing too many absolutes into the picture... and by doing this, we could go back and fourth forever. There is no end.

You see, I do understand where you are coming from. I wanted a good physique and I wanted to be an authority in the fitness field more than anything in life. That was such an empowering desire that I would have went through hell every single minute of every single day to get to that point. Even if there was no pleasure at all along the way, the end result would have been enough for me.

And the same might be true with you when becoming a doctor. (I think you said you were?). That end product was enough to move you forward no matter what.

Unfortunately, most people, and I have dealt with a lot and this is only based on my sample population and experience... but most people are not pre-wired for success. Rather, they are pre-wired to hold themselves back. Focusing on some end product that resides far off into the future is not enough to move them into action today, and every other day between now and then. It just doesn't work like that for most.... and it has nothing to do with some form of "weakness" in these people, I might add.

How about this: Any journey is going to be filled with pain and pleasure. To improve your chances of success, you must not ONLY have an ultimate goal and expect that to be your only fuel to drive you to the finish line. Most must also couple this empowering final result with small victories along the way. Each small step of the journey can be painful, but only if let your mind see it as so. And if you don't control this short term focus, chances are slim that you will adhere to a long term plan that ensures arrival at the final destination.


Does that sound right based on what I have said here?

I don't think we are "arguing" anymore, rather discussing a very interesting topic... and if you wish to continue, I am all for it... as I think this discussion can help others who are facing their own personal battles.
 
I think it's woody allen that's quoted as saying 80 percent of success is just showing up -- so does that showing up come from perserverance, commitment or belief in one's self - or all of the above.

and thomas edison once said many of life's failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up. - that's true in so many cases... but is edison's quote, is success the goal line or is it the journey...

the journey is an important part of success - because you learn a lot about yourself and the goal line might very well change at some point.
 
I'm really pissed I can't give you reps for that great post, Steve. You're a philosopher as well as a coach.

In my journal today I mentioned a book that I thought you would really enjoy - Zen and the Art of Archery, by Eugene Herrigal. It's all about this thread.
 
doesnt perserverance come from the belief in what you are doing.. if you didn't believe in it -- would you really have the sticktoittiveness? :)
 
How about this: Any journey is going to be filled with pain and pleasure. To improve your chances of success, you must not ONLY have an ultimate goal and expect that to be your only fuel to drive you to the finish line. Most must also couple this empowering final result with small victories along the way. Each small step of the journey can be painful, but only if let your mind see it as so. And if you don't control this short term focus, chances are slim that you will adhere to a long term plan that ensures arrival at the final destination.

yep, I think that's exactly what we are both saying.

Fun subject, Steve. I look forward to our next discussion!
 
What sets those apart who reach great heights, from the average? Great heights in fitness, weight loss, business, etc.:

A pilot in the USAF has to have outstanding vision.

A half back in the NFL has to have exceptional speed.

The President of the USA has to have been born in the US.

Hmmm, so you are saying the mind has nothing to do with it?
 
After a comment yesterday, it made me dig up this old thread.. some interesting reading in it -

and deserves some attention again...
 
me too - but I knew we had talked about it once before -
I just lvoe the search feature :) it's so useful...

it really brings up the question in my head again -what makes a person a success -

Someone used the term at me yesterday and I can't disagree strongly enough -I might be on my way to becoming one -but I'm surely not one yet - I'm a success - in progress... maybe.. :D

I miss miss juliette and m2m really needs to get her butt back in the door :D
 
I like to believe I'll always think of myself and any extension of myself as a 'work in progress.'

There's always room for improvement.

If I get sick of focusing my attention on one thing, I'll just pick another.
 
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