Still losing lbs, and not even trying !!!

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Fish Chris

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I can't believe this ! I think I'm eating plenty ! Heck, about 2600 cals.... 200 grams protein, 240 gm's carbs... Granted, my fat is pretty darn low, at about 30 gm's.

So anyway, today while at my body building buddies house, he ask's, do you want to weigh yourself again ? And I'm like, sure, I guess so..... but on the way to the scale, I wasn't even sure what I was hoping to see ? Granted, I certainly have a good amount of fat left on me (at my height and weight, with the caliper test, we figured it at about 18% BF) however, I've been whipping the $#@$ out of my Bowflex, and really hoping to start adding some muscle weight, at some point soon.

Anyway, I hop on the scale, and Bam ! Lost another 3.5 lbs in just the last week ! That makes 7 lbs in just the last two !

I mean, I guess it wouldn't be a bad thing to lose some more of that 18% BF..... as long as I'm not losing ANY muscle.... and obviously, it would be nice if I were adding at least a few ounces of muscle per week too.

But this has me seriously wondering if I shouldn't bump up my cals ? What, 3000 a day ? And where would I add it ? You saw my intake list at the top of the page.... What do I need more of ?

Hmmmmm,
Fish

PS, As far as my physical output, I'm working hard on the Bowflex 3 days on, 1 day off, about 1 1/2 hours a day. I could probably rush it done in an hour, but I purposely take my time.
And I'm doing the stationary bike at a quite high resistence (why do it, if I'm not going to kick my butt ?) 30 minutes, every other day.
And my work is pretty active, but only about 6 hours a day, 4 days a week right now. {sucks huh ? No man should have to work that much ;)}

PPS, I wish I could like lose weight for other people, for a living ! What could be easier ?
 
If you're losing 3.5lbs per week on 2600 calories per day, that equates to roughly a 1750 calorie per day defecit. You would be able to eat about 4300 calories just to maintain your current body weight. You'd have to bump that up to about 4800 if you wanted to start gaining weight/muscle.

It does seem like a lot, and maybe it is. Maybe you're way overestimating the number of calories you're eating - I think I read in another thread you were around 190-200lbs, which would put your maintenance based on these numbers at ~21-22x your bodyweight? That seems a bit high. Normally, you go ~16x your bodyweight for maintenance for very active individuals.

I mean, I guess it wouldn't be a bad thing to lose some more of that 18% BF..... as long as I'm not losing ANY muscle.... and obviously, it would be nice if I were adding at least a few ounces of muscle per week too.
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Here's the deal. Maybe I said this before, maybe I wasn't clear. You seem to have 2 goals: 1) lose bodyfat, 2) gain muscle. Unfortunately, you seem to be far enough along in your training that you can not do both at the same time. Also, your expectations are a bit off. You want to lose bodyfat without sacrificing ANY muscle, but you also want to gain muscle without putting on ANY more body fat. Fact is, you need to be in a calorie defecit to lose fat, and a calorie surplus to gain muscle.

When you're in a calorie defecit to lose fat, you work hard and weight lift to attempt to minimize muscle loss. You will lose some mass that is not fat, be it unessential lean body mass/connective tissue, or muscle. If you eat right and lift right, you can minimize the skeltal muscle mass loss to nearly zero - you need a lot of protein, and you need progressive overload for your lifts. You also want to lose weight as slowly as tolerable - anything over 1% of your weight lost per week increases the liklihood that you could lose more muscle mass. But, you have to be willing to accept some loss of muscle mass as a possibility. That doesn't necessarily mean you will lose strength, and the result should be more fat loss than muscle loss, so you will still look more ripped afterwards.

Other side - when you're in a calorie surplus to gain muscle, you have to gain weight. You eat the right foods at the right time and do the right lifts to minimize the amount of fat that gets added in as well, but you have to accept that when you are in a calorie surplus, you will gain some fat. This is where genetics come into play big time - more genetically gifted will be able to put on more muscle and less fat in a surpless than some of the less fortunate genetically - but that just means that it takes a bit more work to get to the same result. BUT, you have to be willing to accept some fat gain when you are building muscle. Its just the way the human body works.

What you should really look into is body building, to get more specific advice. You need to cycle from fat loss to muscle gain, potentially many times, to ultimately get the result you're looking for. For example, suppose you keep losing fat and you get down to <10% body fat. You have a ton of definition, six pack abs, the whole nine yards. But maybe you're not satisfied with the amount of muscle on your body. You want to be bigger as in more muscular - bigger arms, shoulders, chest, etc. So you start gaining muscle. Before, I told you that at a maximum, you could hope to gain 1/2 lb per week in muscle. So you take 20 weeks and gain 10lbs of muscle. But the scale goes up 20lbs during that time, so as a result you put on 10lbs of fat as well. You got bigger, but at the same time, lost some definition, and you have a higher fat%. Well, now you switch to losing fat. You don't try to lose the 20lbs again, because 10lbs of that was muscle you want to keep. At most, you would try to lose the 10lbs of fat you gained. Depending on the math, you might only need to lose 7lbs of body fat to get back down to the same fat %. If you lost the entire 10lbs of fat, you would end up at an even lower body fat % than before you gained the muscle, looking even more ripped than before, as well as bigger. You then might decide you want to be bigger still and repeat the cycle - switch to gaining some muscle, accepting some fat gain, and after putting on a bit of muscle, switching to cutting to get rid of the fat again. And then again and again until you reach the point genetically where you just can't put on any more muscle, or it slows to the point where maybe you're putting on 1lb of muscle for every 20lbs you gain in your bulking cycle, instead of 10lbs of muscle.

Note that I'm basically just making up some numbers here, but I believe the idea is the same even if the numbers are off. This is where you need some body building research to get more into specifics and be able to get some realistic expectations. Or, you can stick with the really basic - eat in a surplus and lift like mad to gain muscle, eat in a defecit and lift like mad to lose fat and hold on to muscle only, but not gain. Cycle until you're happy, then lift and eat to maintain.

One final note: don't confuse strength with muscle mass/size. You can definitely gain strength while in a defecit, even if you're not gaining any muscle mass or maybe even losing some. The way I've come to understand it, and someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but your muscles at any given mass has a certain ultimate stength potential, and it takes training to get to the point where you can use all of it. You can make your muscles grow without using all thier strength potential, but you can also get stronger without making your muscles grow, to a point. Eventually, you'd reach a point where your muscles can't get any stronger at their current size, and then the only way to get stronger would be to eat in a surplus to grow more muscle. If the scale is going down, and you're still upping the weight consistently, you're not at that point yet.


And PS, I'd let you lose some of my weight if you could ;)
 
Thank you so much Mar ! I read every word.... twice !

So, if you knew nothing else, but the fact that I was losing 3 1/2 lbs a week, but wanted to gain muscle, where in my diet should I add ? Or should I say, "add what" and "how much" ? I feel like I'm eating something every time I turn around, as it is :) And believe me, everything tastes good ! I definitely have a big appetite :)

Also, I think your absolutely right (backed by all the good info I've ever read) about needing to cycle back and forth between fatt loss, and muscle gain.

I'm just trying to decide when I'm going to "try" to stop losing fat, and start gaining muscle ?

Oh and hey, as far as my daily cals, carbs, proteins, and fats.... It might be a little bit off + or _ a 150 cals, or a few grams of the other stuff, but my diet is so consistent, and controlled, it makes it relatively easy to track.

If muscle gain were as easy as fat loss, I'd look like Mariuz Pudginowski by next year ! :)

Peace,
Fish

PS, At 18 years old (a LONG time ago) when I was in the best shape of my life, I was pretty darn lean... I dunno.... maybe 12% BF, and weighed right around 200 to 205. I got to be REALLY strong, but my arms were never anywhere near as big, or cut as I wanted. My chest and abs were pretty impressive. But back then, I ate anything edible that came within my range :) I think I probably ate 4000 to 5000 cals a day..... Lots of healthy stuff, mixed with lots of fat, and garbage....
 
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If it helps as an explanation strength has two components - physical and neurological. Physical is simple, more muscle mass = more strength. Neurological is more complicated, it involves training the neurons to work the muscle mass in the most effective way. Essentially, your muscles are becoming more coordinated. That's why you can gain strength even if your muscle mass doesn't increase.

The other thing I'd like to throw out there is that I've seen some body builders using an alternative to the bulk/cut phase. They use more of a day to day cyclical approach based on strength workouts. For example, non-bowflex days you could eat 2600 calories. Then on strength training days eat 4000-5000 (or whatever turns out to work for you) and focus most of it after your workout.

The idea is that on the days you're not working out you're burning off fat. And the days when your body is most primed to gain muscle you eat at a surplus so you give your body maximum fuel.

You'll still be doing essentially a cut & bulk cycle, but when you average it out over a week it will look like you're losing fat and gaining muscle at the same time.
 
Jeanette, that's an interesting concept too.

I think for now, I might start eating an extra chicken breast, later in the day (before my Bowflex workout) and also, my bodybuilding buddy is a strong advocate of oatmeal.... the plain, natural type, with no sodium or sugar (you can always add a bit of splenda, for sweetness, and he likes to add a couple tablespoons of natural peanut butter.

I'm really thinking I probably need to add add at least 1000 cals a day, to my current diet.

And to think, 9 months ago, I was obese, and now I'm having to work at "eating enough" ? :)

Ha ! How funny is that ? :)

Peace,
Fish
 
And to think, 9 months ago, I was obese, and now I'm having to work at "eating enough" ?
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Hey, I'm still obese and its still work to try to make sure I'm eating enough, and thats just to lose weight. I mean, I figure I need to aim for 2500-3000 to lose 3lbs per week, but I start feeling satisfied for the day at around 2000. Gives me confidence that when I'm ready to maintain, I'll be able to do it.

For your question of what to add, building muscle takes protein, so thats a good place to start. I've heard your daily intake should be in the ballpark of 1g-1.5g per lb of lean body mass, and I've heard that in regards to muscle maintenance while dieting, so perhaps when trying to build muscle, it should be more? You still need the fats and carbs too - I believe carbs are useful around workouts so your body uses them for energy before/during/after workout, and doesn't utilize the protein for energy and instead for building muscle. Again, just relaying what I've heard, so I could have heard wrong or read misinformation or I could be remembering incorrectly, so make sure you do some of your own research to confirm my statements. Also, I think until you become more advanced, the macro split probably doesn't matter as much, as long as its balanced. Macro split becomes more important only when you try to go above and beyond normal or average muscle mass and get into like competition body building. Same as, macro split doesn't really matter at all when losing fat, until you try to push your body down into the single digits. Until you're pushing your body to the limits, calories in compared to calories out is good enough, whether its a surplus for gaining muscle, or a defecit for losing fat.

The other thing I'd like to throw out there is that I've seen some body builders using an alternative to the bulk/cut phase. They use more of a day to day cyclical approach based on strength workouts. For example, non-bowflex days you could eat 2600 calories. Then on strength training days eat 4000-5000 (or whatever turns out to work for you) and focus most of it after your workout.
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Jeanette, I've heard about this before and I was wondering if you had any more information. I admit I haven't really researched it or thought about it too much, but my first thought was that maybe it works, but I question in my head how effective it really is. For example, you know how some people claim that if you skip a meal your body enters starvation mode and your metabolism slows, but thats really just a myth because your body doesn't adjust that quickly? Well, I was wondering if the same thing might be true for this short cycle bulking and cutting, and the body can't really adjust quick enough? For example, if I'm a surplus every other day and a defecit every other day, the average result for the week will either be a defecit, maintenance, or surplus. At my stage, the average NEEDS to be defecit to lose weight, because lets face it, I'm just not going to ever be 360lbs and all muscle, so it seems like if the overall average is that I'm in a defecit, even if I'm in a surplus on lifting days, I'm not sure I'm yet convinced I could build any muscle mass.

Again, I'm not making any claims or anything, just thinking out loud about it. If it worked, it would be something I would be interested in since my goals I have include losing fat and ultimately putting on muscle - I just have a bunch of fat I have to get rid of before any amount of muscle is really going to make any difference to how I look.
 
Chris - I like to do steel cut oats + broth + veggies and maybe an egg or leftover meats :D Gets some of all the macros and pretty tasty too! Oatmeal, it's not just for breakfast ;)

Mar - Most of the before & afters I've seen have been from leangains.com, and it sounds like people are pretty successful at it. I've also seen a lot of references to the EOD diet on Lyle McDonald's forums (EOD = Every Other Day) and it's using the same concept. It sounds like several of the people using it find it productive, although obviously Lyle's forums don't quite have the same before & after pictures that are posted for leangains clients.

Although I haven't done tons of research, it seems to make sense. I'd have to search for references, but it sounds as though your maximum muscle gains take place 4 hours after lifting, but the catabolic effect lasts for 24 hours. So if you're at a surplus during that time frame, gains will favor muscle over fat. Since the window for muscle gains is basically 24 hours, it means it doesn't matter so much if you're in a deficit the next day in terms of your muscle gain. You're not so much missing out on muscle building opportunity by being in a deficit.

This isn't the same as metabolic changes which are on a longer term basis - and as a standard disclaimer, I'm not really an expert ;) However, I do think that Lyle is and he seems to think there's validity to the Every Other Day concept, and unless Martin Berkham is putting up phony client results on leangains, it does seem to at the very least be possible.

As for carbs around workouts, I know I've seen a study that basically said that protein helped build muscle after a workout, and carbs helped prevent muscle breakdown. I think the study was linked to in an explanation of why chocolate milk was still unbeaten as a post-workout drink...
 
Hey thanks again for your input guys. I really am taking all of this into consideration.

I think I'm getting plenty protein at 200 gm's a day.... But obviously not enough cals. Heck, I at least want to quit losing 3 1/2 lbs a week !

Another thing, it might actually help if I increased my fats "just a little bit". They had actually dropped off lately, from about 50 to closer to 25 a day ! ...and most of that was the good kind... nuts, avocado, salmon....

But anyway, I'm going to "finally" buy a scale tomorrow, so I can watch it like a hawk.... then start increasing my cals to at least the point where I stop losing weight. If I can just hold it at 190 for a while, while I whip on my Bowflex, and the exercise bike, that would probably be good.

I'm not trying to be a skinny weakling..... but I was completely tired of being a big, fat, slob for years too !

Hmmmmm.......
Fish
 
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