So is it impossible...
- Thread starter LeRoguh
- Start date
No it's possible. Just hard.
To build muscle you need to eat a lot. To loose fat you need to do a lot of cardio.
It will be hard to mix both in, and get as good of results as if you were just gaining, or loosing mass. Split your workout 50/50 so you can loose some weight, while gaining muscle.
"Weight:158
Height:5'10"
Goal Weight:150
Age:16"
When I look at your weight now, I don't see why you would want to loose weight. 158 pounds is a great weight to start at...
To build muscle you need to eat a lot. To loose fat you need to do a lot of cardio.
It will be hard to mix both in, and get as good of results as if you were just gaining, or loosing mass. Split your workout 50/50 so you can loose some weight, while gaining muscle.
"Weight:158
Height:5'10"
Goal Weight:150
Age:16"
When I look at your weight now, I don't see why you would want to loose weight. 158 pounds is a great weight to start at...
He's train to bulk, and cut. Read his post again.THBench said:
to build muscle and lose fat at the same time?
Just do it.
Not impossible, but a careful and slow process if you can't just focus on one at a time. It depends greatly on whether or not you're a slow gainer or not. Monitor your body fat, and make adjustments in caloric intake and cardio weekly, and keep lifting sessions intense.
If you're still trying to gain muscle, you can't limit carbs like most people do during a typical cutting phase. You'll need about 3 - 5 g per pound. "Carbohydrates fuel your muscles so that the muscles can perform intense muscle-building exercise. By overloading the muscle not with protein but with weightlifting and other resisitance exercise, the muscle fibers increase in size" (Nancy Clark, MS, RD - sports nutrition)
Protein intake is also important, as it is involved with building and repairing tissues. This is less than you think though, 0.7 - 0.9 g per lb.
If you're still trying to gain muscle, you can't limit carbs like most people do during a typical cutting phase. You'll need about 3 - 5 g per pound. "Carbohydrates fuel your muscles so that the muscles can perform intense muscle-building exercise. By overloading the muscle not with protein but with weightlifting and other resisitance exercise, the muscle fibers increase in size" (Nancy Clark, MS, RD - sports nutrition)
Protein intake is also important, as it is involved with building and repairing tissues. This is less than you think though, 0.7 - 0.9 g per lb.
I had a feeling I was going to catch some slack for the protein comment. It's okay, here's what I've learned though 
Both Nancy Clark and Julie Burns, registered dieticians specializing in sports nutrition suggest around the same range.
He definitely needs protein to feed his muscles. And you're right, his muscles do need more than 0.9 g/lb. However, every lb on his body is not muscle, and extra fat on the body doesn't need extra protein. Excess protein isn't stored as bulging muscles or used for muscle fuel. Gains are not going to come from excess protein, but from the work put in at the gym, and for more energy there, carbs should be the primary source.
As for where the numbers come from ... the FAO and the RDA for protein are based on data from long term nitrogen balance studies. The DRI comes from the National Academy of Sciences. N balance was determined to be achieved at a a N intake of 105 mg N/kg BW/day or 0.66 g protein/kg BW/day. Standard deviation to cover 97.5% of healthy people was 25%.
0.25 x 0.6g/kg BW = 0.15g/kg BW
0.6gkg BW + 0.15 g/kg BW = 0.75 g protein/kg BW
Since protein is not 100% digestible, the FAO committee used a figure closer to 92%.
0.75 g protein/kg BW x 100/92 = 0.8 g protein/kg BW
Note that this number is not per lb, bur per kg.
I know that was really long, but I hope it helped some.
Both Nancy Clark and Julie Burns, registered dieticians specializing in sports nutrition suggest around the same range.
He definitely needs protein to feed his muscles. And you're right, his muscles do need more than 0.9 g/lb. However, every lb on his body is not muscle, and extra fat on the body doesn't need extra protein. Excess protein isn't stored as bulging muscles or used for muscle fuel. Gains are not going to come from excess protein, but from the work put in at the gym, and for more energy there, carbs should be the primary source.
As for where the numbers come from ... the FAO and the RDA for protein are based on data from long term nitrogen balance studies. The DRI comes from the National Academy of Sciences. N balance was determined to be achieved at a a N intake of 105 mg N/kg BW/day or 0.66 g protein/kg BW/day. Standard deviation to cover 97.5% of healthy people was 25%.
0.25 x 0.6g/kg BW = 0.15g/kg BW
0.6gkg BW + 0.15 g/kg BW = 0.75 g protein/kg BW
Since protein is not 100% digestible, the FAO committee used a figure closer to 92%.
0.75 g protein/kg BW x 100/92 = 0.8 g protein/kg BW
Note that this number is not per lb, bur per kg.
I know that was really long, but I hope it helped some.
ginab said:I had a feeling I was going to catch some slack for the protein comment. It's okay, here's what I've learned though
Both Nancy Clark and Julie Burns, registered dieticians specializing in sports nutrition suggest around the same range.
He definitely needs protein to feed his muscles. And you're right, his muscles do need more than 0.9 g/lb. However, every lb on his body is not muscle, and extra fat on the body doesn't need extra protein. Excess protein isn't stored as bulging muscles or used for muscle fuel. Gains are not going to come from excess protein, but from the work put in at the gym, and for more energy there, carbs should be the primary source.
As for where the numbers come from ... the FAO and the RDA for protein are based on data from long term nitrogen balance studies. The DRI comes from the National Academy of Sciences. N balance was determined to be achieved at a a N intake of 105 mg N/kg BW/day or 0.66 g protein/kg BW/day. Standard deviation to cover 97.5% of healthy people was 25%.
0.25 x 0.6g/kg BW = 0.15g/kg BW
0.6gkg BW + 0.15 g/kg BW = 0.75 g protein/kg BW
Since protein is not 100% digestible, the FAO committee used a figure closer to 92%.
0.75 g protein/kg BW x 100/92 = 0.8 g protein/kg BW
Note that this number is not per lb, bur per kg.
I know that was really long, but I hope it helped some.
Interesting, but, although I do agree with you about the need for carbs and energy...gains come from diet more so than exercise.
There are tons of people who workout all of the time, but don't eat right and thus don't see results. That, and as evo puts it, "fat people finish marathons all of the time" is a prime example.
I do like the part about the extra fat not needing extra protein as well, I definitely understand that. I understand that Nancy Clark and Julie Burns are well-known, but the topic here is concerning cutting specifically, not just gaining muscle or just losing weight.
Not all protein has the same bioavailability either, so it's hard to put one number on all forms of protein. For example, a whey isolate is higher than chicken and tuna, both of which are higher than beans.
The numbers from the FAO and national academy of sciences, and the numbers/allowances they put out are tailored to the general public and the general population, correct? So it would be difficult to apply the numbers to everyone, much less a lifting based, and in this case, a cutting audience.
personally id argue that you are both correct but only when taken as an overall formula.
you need to eat right to get the most out of training, and also you have to train right to make the most out of what you are eating.
you need to eat right to get the most out of training, and also you have to train right to make the most out of what you are eating.
AJP said:Interesting, but, although I do agree with you about the need for carbs and energy...gains come from diet more so than exercise.
There are tons of people who workout all of the time, but don't eat right and thus don't see results. That, and as evo puts it, "fat people finish marathons all of the time" is a prime example.
I'm not saying diet isn't important. It is vital to making gains. If you don't eat according to your goals, you will never see results. However, building muscle while cutting fat is trickier than just weight loss. People can lose a good amount of weight via dieting or exercising alone (not saying it's the best looking physique). And yes, fat people finish marathons ... and people that just eat protein and don't lift weights get fat. I agree with benelson, it's both together that give results.
It's tricky when you're trying to cut fat and gain muscle ... but it is possible.
AJP said:
I know ... I referenced their texts on that exact topic. They both have different theories when it comes to just bulking, maintaining, losing weight, etc. These numbers were found in areas that discussed losing fat, while maintainining/building muscle. Cutting, right?
AJP said:
You're exactly right
Since protein is not 100% digestible, the FAO committee used a figure closer to 92%.AJP said:
I was just referencing the general population because you said the requirement was even too low for weight loss. So, I wanted to show you where I was coming from. If you look at my original message, I said that he should have 0.7 -0.9 g per lb. That's 2.0 g/kg BW compared to the general poplulation's requirement of 0.8 g/kg BW.
Sidenote: thanks for making a day at home sick way more fun. gotta love a friendly debate
ginab said:Sidenote: thanks for making a day at home sick way more fun. gotta love a friendly debate
Anytime
Thanks for clearing those up, I do agree with most, but the amount of protein doesn't work for me, no offense, just my opinion of course.
Check out this article if you have time as well, it's definitely a good read, it's version 2.0 because the first was studied, tweaked, and worked on. In the first version the recommended protein intake was just below a gram as well, but after the re-vamp and the new version (2.0), the intake was put at 1.5 instead of just below one...it mentions it about 1/3 of the way down. But the whole thing is good read anyway
HA...I forgot to post the link...http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=473067
The Nancy Clark quote, "Carbohydrates fuel your muscles so that the muscles can perform intense muscle-building exercise. By overloading the muscle not with protein but with weightlifting and other resisitance exercise, the muscle fibers increase in size" (Nancy Clark, MS, RD - sports nutrition)...
isn't it more in reference to energy (via carbs) and the increase in muscle size during a workout? Of course, too much protein coupled with not working out would not be a good way to go, but as I'm sure you know, I think you might have said this too, you have to feed your body when resting to repair and recover.
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Jooo5 said:
yes that is inevitable but how much you lose depends on how well you can balance your diet and perform your cardio. If you can find just the right amount of calories and day and you HIIT train you can minimize muscle loss while losing a lot of fat. To see noticable gains while losing weight in my opinion is impossible for a veteran lifter.......