site of fat loss

DEF...

You claim most of the advice is based on research. Hmm.. I wonder. The main advice I'd been given so far is that you can't control where you lose weight, so relax and just keep up what you're doing. My gut instinct is this is based on "conventional wisdom", something repeated again and again until we think it must be true. If there's anyone here that can cite any study which shows this, I think it would be appreciated not just by me but by all of us.

James
 
do the adipocytes burn off after time when it is no longer needed?
 
Chillen...

I appreciate your citation of Richard Weil's response to a possible question I was asking. It looks like I should be spending my time at that forum rather than this one. In any case, though his response was helpful, there remain several questions, which I'll probably inquire about on his forum. The first is, the occurrence of adipose cells throughout the body. Since it is their accumulation in various parts of the body that apparently determine that part of body's shape that is determined by fat, I take it that adipose cells are not uniformly located everywhere. Second, in my case, I'd been referring to weight loss in my derriere that had not previously been experienced throughout my life over a number of weight loss weight gain cycles. This seems to run counter to his claim that we just repeat the cycle in the same way each time. Third, I gather that one's weight doesn't have an effect on the number of adipose cells in one's body and so one may conclude that adipose cells don't have a significant limit to the amount of fat they can store, would this be the case? Fourth, since diet and exercise don't have an effect on the number of adipose cells, nor their individual fat content, as his expertise claims, one could model weight gain and loss using statistical analysis, assuming, of course, we know with some precision what the distribution of adipose cells in our body is. Has this been done? With a little more thought I would probably have a few more.

Again, I appreciate your citation.

James
 
nobody here is going to cite you a scientific study or source. Why? Because we don't need to. We do not have to prove what we tell you. Why are we telling you these things? Because you asked. If you don't want our advice then you should not have asked for it.

You cannot spot reduce. Plain and simple. You will never be able to. If you are sitting in a boat on a lake, and you take a bucket and scoop out some water, did you remove water from that one spot in the lake? NO. Water was removed from the entire lake equally. Your body is like that lake. Your body is stimulated in a way that the fat cells all over your body release a bit of fat. Why? Because when you exercise, especially doing cardio, your entire body needs energy, not just your quads, or your bicep. It would be horribly inefficient to release fat from one spot since that fat would have to travel through literally MILES of blood vessels to get everywhere. Give up this fantasy. Genetics determines where fat will drop the fastest or the slowest. The lower belly ring of fat, and inner thigh fat tend to always go last.

Want to lose weight? Eat a calorie deficit and exercise. Do you have to exercise? No, but you will lose weight much much more effectively as exercise stimulates fat release.

If you eat more calories than you burn in a day you will never lose an ounce of fat. Why? Energy in = energy out. Anyone with a 7th grade or higher education can tell you that. If your energy in is more than your energy out, you are going to store that energy, it doesn't just disappear. If your energy in is less than your energy out, then you need to get that energy from somewhere, and it comes from fat.

Take it or leave it. I don't need to cite 10 sources for this information. It is how it is, and understanding it or knowing it for certain will not change the fact that this is the only way to lose fat short of liposuction. If you enjoy being fat and trying to spot reduce, keep on ignoring sound advice and demanding research. If you want to lose some weight, lose it right, lose it fast, and keep it off, then you need to PERMANENTLY change your eating habbits, and while you are trying to drop the pounds, you need to eat a small deficit and exercise.
 
DEF...

You claim most of the advice is based on research. Hmm.. I wonder. The main advice I'd been given so far is that you can't control where you lose weight, so relax and just keep up what you're doing. My gut instinct is this is based on "conventional wisdom", something repeated again and again until we think it must be true. If there's anyone here that can cite any study which shows this, I think it would be appreciated not just by me but by all of us.

James

Dude, I work for a living. I don't have time to dig this up for you, but enjoy your research.
 
limestix....

You, like many others on this forum, write as if you know what you're talking about, but being the kind of person I am, I have my doubts. Let's take a look at your particular contribution to this dialog:

nobody here is going to cite you a scientific study or source. Why? Because we don't need to. We do not have to prove what we tell you.

I'm new here, and though I'm not looking for proof (which even scientific studies can't provide), my hope was that I might find some folks who would actually know something about weight loss and gain, which at least for me, requires that they have a basis of support for their knowledge. I must say I'm disappointed at most of the responses I've received. If what you say about those who frequent this forum is true (and I wouldn't take your claim on face value for that determination), I have good reason to be.

Why are we telling you these things? Because you asked. If you don't want our advice then you should not have asked for it.

Like I've said in another post: Mere advice is dirt cheap. Advice backed by experience is helpful. Advice backed by expertise is even better. Advice backed by science is best. I'd been hoping for at least advice backed by experience.

You cannot spot reduce. Plain and simple. You will never be able to. If you are sitting in a boat on a lake, and you take a bucket and scoop out some water, did you remove water from that one spot in the lake? NO. Water was removed from the entire lake equally. Your body is like that lake.

Your analogy suffers too much to make it meaningful. First, scooping out the water from that one place doesn't remove water from the everywhere in the lake. The water removed came from the place it was removed and no other. Notwithstanding this feature, I suspect the same is true of fat release removed from one place in one's body. It wouldn't remove fat from everywhere. I'm pretty sure I'm being uncharitable about your analogy and there is a better way of conveying it. but moving on...

Your body is stimulated in a way that the fat cells all over your body release a bit of fat. Why? Because when you exercise, especially doing cardio, your entire body needs energy, not just your quads, or your bicep. It would be horribly inefficient to release fat from one spot since that fat would have to travel through literally MILES of blood vessels to get everywhere.

This is incoherent. To clean this up I suggest you drop the claim that cardio exercise affects all our muscle groups equally, since your point is that it affects all our fat deposits equally. Second, if it is the blood vessels that deliver the energy from fat deposits to the muscles, this alone would tend to support your theory, not that it would take miles to deliver it. The concept that would make your theory hold up is that muscles in need of energy would send some sort of signal that in turn would inform your body's fat cell complement to release energy into the blood stream to be picked up by the muscles that need it. Any excess might have to be redeposited -- can't say. If it is not enough, lactic acid is probably released. But to confirm all this, I'd prefer to see some support for it.

Give up this fantasy. Genetics determines where fat will drop the fastest or the slowest. The lower belly ring of fat, and inner thigh fat tend to always go last.

Now you seem to be contradicting yourself. It's not a drop from everywhere equally, but where it drops is determined by genetics. To make sense of this, what you may be getting at is that what is genetically determined is the various concentrations of fat cells in one's body. By saying it that way, one can attribute the laggard belly fat to the fact that there are more fat cells comprising that region. This makes some sense, but doesn't quite account for everything. There may be reasons why it is more difficult to stimulate fat deposits that lie deep in regions of fat (just as stagnant water doesn't contain equal concentrations of, say, free oxygen, throughout, and require mixing). Additionally, some regions may have a different kind of concentration of fat cells, which allow their more effective stimulation. Who knows? Probably somebody. So far I haven't seen much from this group.

I like to know things. I'm curious. I think it helps to know things. If you had actually taken the time to read what I've written, you would have noticed that I wasn't actually seeking the kind of advice you and others had been preaching to me. But, for some reason, since this is all you can offer, this is what you provide. From my perspective, it doesn't speak well of you or of this forum, but, hey. That's just me. I'm sure you've written me off as just some kook. Well, if you could tell me how to get my name of your member list, I'd appreciate it.

James
 
Well...it seems your point is that we're a bunch of incoherent people full of dirt-cheap advice. You've been offered help & advice and yet in all your responses you continue to insult, belittle and ridicule members of this forum with your condescending and arrogant attitude. That's exactly what you've done.

The sad thing is...I bet you don't see where you've been rude & wrong, you're just some self-righteous grumpy old man looking for the Fountain of Fat Loss and cutting-down everyone who tries to contribute on this thread. I don't think you came here to ask questions, get info or chat about an issue that concerns you....so far as I can tell, you're the first senior-citizen troll we've ever had. You don't need to remove yourself from a list, just stop posting.

I'm sure you have your reasons, but it's sad that at your age you should be so bitter. :sad2:
 
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All of our advice is backed by not only our own experience, but the experience of others.

I'll reexplain my analogy so it better suits my point: When you removed the water from the lake, the volume of water in that one spot was not reduced, rather the volume of the entire lake was reduced. This is how fat works.

You cannot spot reduce, but your body fat does drop off faster in some places than others. why? Because our body is obviously better at storing fat in some places over others. Our bellies and our thighs are very easy places to store fat because it doesn't hamper our ability to get around and such. Evolutionarily, our body has adapted to store most fat around our bellies and thighs first, since it inhibits us the least, and thus, these areas become "cut" last. Genetics determines how much fat is stored where, and also determines which areas will lose fat the fastest and slowest, however the overall trend is obviously that fat comes off the belly and thighs the slowest as its best stored there. I hope that's clear.

What I was saying was not incoherent at all. if you want to know how blood glucose and how liver and muscle glycogen works, you'll have to look it up on your own. When you run, it doesn't just drain energy in your thighs and calves, your entire bood glucose drops, your liver gycogen drops, and your muscle glycogen drops. If your body only released fat from your legs, it would have to travel through miles of blood vessels to get to all the muscles it needs to, to get to your liver, and to recharge your total blood glucose. Highly inefficient no? Want to know how your body is stimulated to lose fat? Like most negative feedback loops in your body, the 'messengers' used, are hormones. Hormones raise or lower your metabolism, hormones control muscle growth and catabolism, hormones control hunger and satiation, and hormones control fat loss. When a hormone is released it doesn't just attack one area of your body and slam it full of messages to do this or that; the hormones circulates around your entire body stimulating all receptors. This is why fat is lost from the entire body rather than one spot. Because it is literally IMPOSSIBLE to stimulate fat loss in one spot without stimulating it everywhere. Consider it a good thing because this means you can do, say, ONLY squats, and still lose fat everywhere.

You really aren't ever going to get a response backed with links to articles and research and peer reviewed journals. You are going to get responses from people who have been losing fat and building muscle for years, and are offering you their advice and tips for how to accomplish that yourself.

We aren't going to give you a fad diet, your tell you you'll lose 10 pounds in 2 weeks. You need to permanently change your eating habits and your lifestyle, because that is why you've become unhealthy, and that is the only way to become healthy again.
 
Mr. BikeSwimLaugh...

I was naive about what this forum was about when I signed on to it. I tried to get some ideas about the site of fat loss that I'd been experiencing and discovered after a bit of probing that the folks on this forum responded to me as if it were a Dear Abby advice column. This wasn't what I expected, and I've been disappointed with the responses, so I've been trying to figure out a way of removing myself or have someone remove me from the member's list, but without success. In the meantime, I've continued to probe and did receive a post that seemed to explain things better, extracted from another forum. This was a good thing. Nonetheless, there remain others, like yourself, who don't like my probing and think I'm rude, bitter and insensitive. Not a problem for me that you think that. I don't doubt you are a fine person who has many friends on this forum, but friendships were not what I was looking for. This is not the first forum I've been on, though it's the first one I've entered for the purpose of exploring the topic of fitness. It's true I shouldn't judge the entire forum on the basis of a limited number of responders, but so far it seems I made a mistake in entering this one. Since you've been on this forum for a long time, perhaps you can tell me why I should be satisfied with the responses I've been getting. From my perspective, it seems as if you are preaching to me. I haven't been impressed with the quality of expertise shown. Why should I be impressed? It's possible that the reason I'm not the sort of person you want on this forum is that unlike others who might feel that way I keep probing. By the way, I see there is a way to remove myself from this topic, but I'd like more than that -- namely to have me removed from the entire forum -- something I've inquired of the forum administrator, but without success.

James
 
I've been losing weight slowly over the last year (maybe 15 pounds now) from a regimen that includes a reasonable diet combined with weight and aerobic training, about four to five times a week. So far so good. However I notice that my weight loss usually comes in spurts (and I can usually tell ahead of time because I start to urinate more) about every month or so. (Although I weigh myself regularly I average out the usual ups and downs that occur due to diet and exercise.) What bothers me is that the fat loss seems to occur in my derriere, not where I'd like it to be -- around my abdomen. My hip size has reduced and I fit into smaller sizes, but my waist seems to resist diminishing.

I'm male, around 70, about 5' 10", and overweight. The weight loss I've been referring to has me going from over 240 to under 230. (Note, I have weighed much more in the not too distant past and the loss during those years seemed to be more in the abdomen area.)

My wife tells me that women lose it first in the boobs. Is what I'm experiencing a common feature for men? I had always assumed that fat loss draws from every part of your body equally. Am I wrong?

James

Just be faithful with your personal diet and exercise, and the fat tissue will come off the places you wish.

You will not have control where your body takes this off.

Take this from someone who has experience from going from over 20ish% body fat to about 7.8% and is nearing 50 years old, and has researched this subject matter.

When or if you extend your research, I promise the bottom line will be: You cannot control where your body decides to remove its body fat.

Additionally, it is "common" for men to have difficulty in removing body fat from the lower back and lower abdomen. I fell in this "traditional" category when trying to remove the last few pounds, and it can get difficult for some people--especially if we are more advanced in age.

While a basic dietary approach worked to drain the shallow end and to a lessor extent the deeper end of the fat pool during most of my fat loss, I had to move to more advanced dietary methods (if-you-will) to remove the last fat deposits that were stubborn (manipulating macro-nutrients, calories, and adding in higher impact exercises).

Debating how and why our bodies remove body fat is saved for your personal research, and the kind spirit of one wanting to furnish you "reputable" information, and is voluntary (as with practically any forum).

When the smoke clears, what will drive you home within your goal is: The basic fundamentals of diet and fitness which is the super-glue for more advanced approaches such as manipulating calories, macro-nutrients, and the alike, and adapting these to your bodily feed back as you move along and write your personal fitness novel. Science has already given us basic and advanced basics of diet fitness to work with, and this is all you need.

There was no book written specifically for you, and you have to write it my friend. You are responsible for your own fitness, and at the mercy of someone's voluntary help (unless you are willing to pay for it, such as getting a personal nutritionist/trainer).

If you cannot afford one nor want one, than you have to be your own nutritionist and personal trainer.

Most persons on this forum are not diet and fitness scientists, and are not aspiring to be one. Most are average joes' so-to-speak with personally specific goals they want to achieve, and give helpful and voluntary advice.

The absolute killer of one's fat loss quest (isn't learning where and how fat is removed from our bodies), but rather the absolute killer is being inconsistent in applying the fundamental basics and advanced methods of diet fitness, and adapting specifically to ones feedback. It's at this most critical point (when things get tough, and one gets their feathers ruffled)----one shouldn't quit, and most do not realize it. Instead their mind and body isn't connected right; its disjointed, and disconnected leading to absolute failure.

The desire and spirit fades out before they reach the finish line when times get a bit rough and tough.

"Quibbling" over where fat is taken off is a waist of time.

Instead, you should be focusing on your diet, your training, and asking questions on how you could change certain things within your current diet and fitness program to improve your results. This is wisdom.

Unless you have some other motive, which it is "possible" you do.

I will not be responding to this thread again, unless you change your focus.




Best wishes


Chillen
 
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Chillen...

I appreciate your taking the time to respond to my queries. Though very well intentioned, I find the response only obliquely directed to them. I won't complain about this, especially now, but I point it out because it might help in understanding one of the reasons why I've continued my posts. To give you an idea of what I'm referring to consider the following:

As with many others you have stated that one cannot control where fat loss occurs. In informing me of this, what you and others probably picked up on is that I expressed as a problem the fat loss coming off in my derriere for the first time (i.e., it was something unexpected, since it never had happened before, and, I confess it wasn't something I or my wife found desirable).

You then go on to say, like others, that if I keep at it it will eventually come off where I want it to. This would presumably be directed to my indicating that I would have preferred it coming off in my abdomen area, which, though more slowly, is happening, as it has in the past as well.

You then tell me quite a bit about your experience, which, though I appreciate, and indeed find compelling, wasn't directed to anything I'd been inquisitive about. True, I'm trying to lose weight, and indeed, this is a priority I have, and I suppose in reading my post one could pick up on that, but what I was expressing in my post is not the difficulty of losing weight, which both I and my wife are well aware of and are researching in our own way, but of one of the undesirable consequences I encountered in my weight loss.

James
 
Just wondering then, what exactly you want us to tell you? It's quite unfortunate that your body rids itself of the fat on your ass first, but there is no way to get that fat back there, short of trying to gain weight, and there is no way for you to stop or control your body from taking even more from there. I'm unsure exactly, what is still unknown to you.
If you want a better shaped ass again, do some stair master // hill sprint // ass to grass squats to build the glutes up, making the smaller amount of fat go a longer way. Other than that, I highly doubt you just came here for us to tell you your S.O.L.
 
limestix...

Thanks for responding. I suppose the answer to your question was that I wasn't really looking for advice on the matter, but wanted merely to explore the topic. Notwithstanding, it's interesting to read that your suggestions, some of which I already follow. I'll take them under advisement. Note, it's possible this phenomenon may happen to you when you reach my age.

James
 
i decided to spend 2 hours this morning and go ahead and relook some research that ive studied in the past. places like: NCBI, wiley interscience journals, Agency of Industrial Science and Technology, ingenta connect studies.. all of which have the exact information and the proof of studies that your looking for, I have alot of experience and takes me little time to pull up thies studies. the ones your looking for...
But ive decided not to share them with YOU hope you don't wonder why? :)
all other members please stop posting, good day to you sir.
best wishes ~phaledax
 
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I suppose the answer to your question was that I wasn't really looking for advice on the matter, but wanted merely to explore the topic.

Ohhhhhhhh......well why didn't you just say so in the first place.

We could have spared you all our dirt-cheap advice, suffering explanations apalling lack of proof and weak replies.....as well as have relieved you of the nobel burden of having to tell us all how deficient we all our. ;)

I think I know you. You're that grandpa who looks at a kids 2nd-grade art project and proceeds to criticize, pick-apart and make critical commentary on where they could and should have done better. Despite seeing their gloom & pain, you insistantly defend your observation and associated negative criticism as accurate, truthful and therefore right. Ya gotta break a few eggs to make an omlette, eh?

Next time, just post your topic, explain your concern, suggest what you think the solution or problem may be and let the discussion ensue. If you don't understand what someone is saying then ask for clarification. If you don't agree, then explain why or how you have conflicting data or understanding and discuss the issue. Accussing people of being weak, ill-informed and all that other insulting stuff is just not proper etiquette.

A discussion shouldn't involve disagreeing with other people AND making them feel bad by insulting them. I'm just curious, do you really not see where you've been wrong & insulting, or are you one of those guys who refuses to apologize?

The topic of how, where and why the body chooses to use fat from different areas is fascinating and worth discussing. My only point was that regardless of understanding it, it still happens AND we have no choice about how it works (aka; you can't spot-reduce). I then suggested you just continue with your weight loss efforts and assured you it will happen. For that you cut me down with an appalling lack of appreciation, insults and.......ya know what dude, I'm done. You don't get it, you won't get it and you refuse to properly interact with a group of people who have quite a bit experience, are in better shape and only tried to contribute towards helping you and adding to this discussion.

Better luck next life....
 
pubmed.com
medline.com

There you go. Those are two medical databases with studies that will provide you with data that you are looking to gain.

You want to lose weight? Look up what your basal metabolic rate is. Track your calories. Eat less calories than your BMR.

You want something more indepth and insightful? Then pay a little homage to humility and stop insulting others for the information you're receiving on a free forum.

p.s. You don't have to have your name removed from the forum. You can simply stop visiting.
 
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You cannot control who responds to your post when you put it here in an open & free forum that allows anyone in, so quit complaining about how people were trying to help you & didn't succeed. Read what you want & ignore what you don't!

This site does not claim to be a scientific study or source of research. It does, however, provide a source of support to each other in their endeavors & links from people trying to be fit & healthy to the research that supports their claims if you look for it instead of posting in only one spot & expecting everyone to read your mind.

I have found a lot information on different questions I've had from various searches I've done, some backed by research, some by experience of individuals. I have also found so much scientific information it is going to take me a while to go through it properly. Instead of expecting it to just be posted for you based on a one post, why not spend time researching it?

You also can get more information that you are specifically seeking by being courteous towards others instead of being derogatory, or haven't you learned that in the wisdom of your years?

olga p
 
olga...

I'm sure your remarks are well intended. I was expecting a forum quite different than the one it happens to be and honestly don't know how it works. What you and others take as rudeness and insensitivity and complaining and discourtesy, is, in other forums that I'm used to, challenging and provocative. I respect that, and have accordingly toned down my posts, though this has apparently not been noticed. In any case, it is not the sort of forum that I would like be on and wish to be removed from its roster. Unfortunately, it seems, there is no way to remove someone from it once they've signed on, even if they want to be removed. I find this odd, particularly since the message I get from several of you would make me a likely candidate the forum would prefer to see off its roles.

James
 
olga...

I'm sure your remarks are well intended. I was expecting a forum quite different than the one it happens to be and honestly don't know how it works. What you and others take as rudeness and insensitivity and complaining and discourtesy, is, in other forums that I'm used to, challenging and provocative. I respect that, and have accordingly toned down my posts, though this has apparently not been noticed. In any case, it is not the sort of forum that I would like be on and wish to be removed from its roster. Unfortunately, it seems, there is no way to remove someone from it once they've signed on, even if they want to be removed. I find this odd, particularly since the message I get from several of you would make me a likely candidate the forum would prefer to see off its roles.

James

Like I said, it doesn't matter if you're removed or not, you can simply stop visiting.
 
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