Should i Weight Train?

[feeb]

Hi, i am trying to loose 3 stone at the moment...

I am 15st 74 and i need to get into shape, i have started going to the gym at least 3 times a week and doing 35mins of bike, 25mins of cross trainer and then swimming for an hour

But i dont feel i am loosing weight I wont quit because it makes me feel good but i am wondering if i should be doing some weight training... I havent done any because i dont want to turn this much fat into muscle, i would look really butch and really just want to tone down and be flat, not huge and muscl-y!

So Should i be weight training? will i lose weight using the system i have here or do i have to do the weight bits?


Thanks for your advice - Fi xx

 

[Cord the Seeker]

Okay, a couple of things here.

First, do you do all of those things in one session (bike, crosstrainterm swimming)? Or do you do one each time you work out?
If you do them all at once you are overtraining. Doing cardio-type stuff for more than an hour at a time is counter-productive.

Second, what is your diet like? The key to weight loss is controlling your food intake. If you aren't watching what you eat very carefully, you won't lose weight even if you do exercise.

Third, yes you should be doing weight training. It is good exercise, it helps you hang on to your current muscle which you will otherwise lose as you lose weight. Strength training is critical for making sure you hang onto that precious muscle mass. And no, you won't get bulky. At all. Period.
To actually build muscle mass you have to train hard and be in a calorie-surplus state. If you do that, weight loss is impossible.

Since you want to lose weight you need to be in a calorie deficit, and it is very very hard to build muscle mass in a caloric deficit. What you will do is get stronger (not the same as getting bigger muscles), help lower your body fat percentage, and as you lose weight the muscles that are already there will show through more. You won't get bulky or butch.
Fat does not turn into muscle - there's no alchemy here.

If you cut your food intake, and keep doing what you are doing, you will still lose weight (because you are putting yourself in a caloric deficit), but of you don't maintain your current muscle, you may end up at a lower weight but with a high body fat percentage - what is called "skinny fat".
And nobody wants that.

 

[Steve]

Ditto that. Read twice and then ask questions.

 

[MarkA]

I agree on the over training-I know it sounds weird but what your doing is detrimental (and discouraging too I'm sure!)

Give us some info on what, when and how often you eat. It's impossible to tell without that data.

I will say though, if you are willing to do that much it's just a question of revising your tactics. Most people won't give that kind of effort

Good Luck

Mark

 

[KaraCooks]

What they said, but all also cut to the chase and be very blunt:

I havent done any because i dont want to turn this much fat into muscle, i would look really butch and really just want to tone down and be flat, not huge and muscl-y!

Fat doesn't turn into muscle
You don't get "really butch" whatever that means, by weight liftings
You don't get huge and muscle-y by weight lifting and strength training w/out putting in hours a day of intense work, eating a very specific diet, and possibly taking drugs.

Read the stickies on weight lifting and strength training and do your best to eliminate those myths from your mind.

 

[feeb]

Yep every time i go to the gym (which is about three times a week) i do about an hour cardio and an hours swimming

but have been considering moving away from that and doing an hours swimming or cardio, followed by a weight training session, 3 times a week

Its good to know that i can change what i am doing...

As for 'calorie counting' i absolutely refuse to get into it, i believe its why most people stay fat and i think its incredibly soul destroying

i used to drink large cups of Yorkshire tea with milk and sugar - i have replaced that with Herbal Teas and honey

I used to eat meat for nearly every meal, i have replaced that with fish (and smaller portions to boot)

I used to snack on choccy and biscuits and now i eat things like brunch bars and nuts and fruit bars

I dont necessarily want to adjust my life to loose weight, i want to change my lifestyle so that i can be healthier and happier with myself, calorie counting wont do that but making healthy decisions will.

I work from home mostly, alot of my work is based in a chair so i enjoy doing an hours cardio a day - most people would get that from walking to work i imagine, or running about during the day

will look into doing some weight stuff and possibly bring my training down to just a 40min bike session followed by a swim

 

[feeb]

to be more specific - i generally drink lots of herbal tea, have cereal and milk quite late in the day because my stomach doesnt wake up for a while and if i eat before i exercise then i feel really horrid

then i usually have a snack of a nut bar, eat dinner of fish, potato and some veggies and usually i have another nut bar in the evening because i am so used to snacking at night that my body just craves and craves it (I am hoping this choccy craving will pass soon because its so hard to resist)

 

[KaraCooks]

ut have been considering moving away from that and doing an hours swimming or cardio, followed by a weight training session, 3 times a week

Unless you just really enjoy the cardio, you could probably do your weight training and then cut your cardio back to 30 mins and that would be quite sufficient.

As for 'calorie counting' i absolutely refuse to get into it, i believe its why most people stay fat and i think its incredibly soul destroying

Interesting. I've lost 80 lbs and kept it off for 2 years by counting calories, as have several of my friends. As far as I know, I'm still in possession of my soul.

I dont necessarily want to adjust my life to loose weight, i want to change my lifestyle so that i can be healthier and happier with myself, calorie counting wont do that but making healthy decisions will.

Quite true ... it all depends on your goals. If you want to lose weight, however, ultimately it is about calories in vs. calories out, no matter how you choose to manage those calories - by direct counting or by switching around what you eat.

 

[feeb]

Unless you just really enjoy the cardio, you could probably do your weight training and then cut your cardio back to 30 mins and that would be quite sufficient.

I enjoy swimming, i am happy to swim for an hour a day if i had the time so i think i will keep that going and do weight-training and cardio as a seperate thing, 20 mins on the bike, 20 on the cross trainer and then i will arrange a weights program

actually just got back from the gym and am having a meeting tomorrow at 11am so i can get a programme worked out for the gym

Interesting. I've lost 80 lbs and kept it off for 2 years by counting calories, as have several of my friends. As far as I know, I'm still in possession of my soul. ]

Nice one! you should be very proud of your achievements, everyone is different though and calorie counting smacks to me of obession, denying yourself things you want and generally constantly worrying about food and weight and food

I have always had a problem with food, i was born quite blind so i didnt move for a while, food was something i could explore without moving, classic symptom of a child who cannot see... So i have always had a love/hate relationship with food, i use it for comfort, when i am bored and so on

i really need to eat to survive and that is what my heart tells me, getting more obessesd with food would be totally counter-productive

Quite true ... it all depends on your goals. If you want to lose weight, however, ultimately it is about calories in vs. calories out, no matter how you choose to manage those calories - by direct counting or by switching around what you eat.

This is the only bit i disagree with, if i eat more healthily, exercise more and improve my lifestyle, i will loose weight, it might not happen quickly but i am not determine that it will, i am fortunate enough to have a life full of joy anyway so loosing weight will just be a bonus - Spending my days counting every calorie and refusing the odd biscuit because it will make my daily average too high is just silly, it about a lifestyle choice rather than a constant system of punishment and few rewards.

 

[Steve]

I have always had a problem with food,

Pick up the book, "Mindless Eating."

This is the only bit i disagree with, if i eat more healthily, exercise more and improve my lifestyle, i will loose weight,

You're actually agreeing with her.

Not disagreeing.

Kara is saying fat loss is and always will be primarily about energy (calories) in vs. out.

You can either directly count energy flux or you can simply do things that indirectly will most likely lead to control of energy.

Either way, it's still about taking in less calories than your body needs.

One person might count calories and know that he or she is in a caloric deficit.

Another person may pay no attention to calories but simply eat more calorically-sparse, nutrient-dense foods (thus limited calories indirectly).

Both will have the same outcome.

Just different paths.

 

[RupertineRupert]

Quite true ... it all depends on your goals. If you want to lose weight, however, ultimately it is about calories in vs. calories out, no matter how you choose to manage those calories - by direct counting or by switching around what you eat.

This is the only bit i disagree with, if i eat more healthily, exercise more and improve my lifestyle, i will loose weight, it might not happen quickly but i am not determine that it will, i am fortunate enough to have a life full of joy anyway so loosing weight will just be a bonus - Spending my days counting every calorie and refusing the odd biscuit because it will make my daily average too high is just silly, it about a lifestyle choice rather than a constant system of punishment and few rewards.

Hey, Feeb.

On this last point, I'd look at it a bit differently. You can certainly can choose your behaviors (and the values that drive those behaviors). If you feel the the downsides of counting calories (at least right now in your life) outweigh the benefits, then you can certainly make the choice not to count calories.

However, we don't get to choose facts--we lose weight when we take in less calories than we use. We gain weight when we take in more calories then we use. (The relationship is complex--it isn't a simple linear function, as our bodies react to calorie surpluses and deficits. But, after all those effects are taken into account, at the end of the day we're taking in either more calories than we use, less than we use, or the same amount as we use.)

So, at the point where behavior meets those facts, a couple things can happen. If the behavior you choose is exercising and eating healthy, but not counting calories, then you might find you are in a calorie deficit, and lose weight. In which case, rock on! However, you might find you aren't in a calorie deficit, and then you'll either gain weight (if you have a surplus) or stay at the same weight. On the level of values--you can choose either of those outcomes as fine. You can certainly say exercising and eating healthy, but not counting calories, is more important to me than weight loss. In which case, once again, rock on--exercising and eating healthy have a lot of benefits whether you lose weight or not.

The point at which you might want to revisit counting calories is if you adopt the healthy eating and exercise, you do place a value on losing weight, and you don't see the weight loss happening. At that point, getting a better handle on calories in can be very helpful in terms of seeing how to eat healthy and control quantities. Counting calories is not about punishment--it's about gathering information that can help you make choices that support your goals. Some people regulate calories in vs. calories out unconsciously, and therefore never have to give the matter any thought. For me, not so much. Even when I think I'm eating healthy, if I don't keep track of how many calories I'm taking in, my weight will drift up. So, for me, counting calories is just putting a conscious action in place to do something my unconscious doesn't do very well on its own.

It's not about denial and punishment--weekend brunch at my house I make banana pancakes for myself, my wife and my son. When my mother-in-law bakes apple crisp, I'll have a piece for dessert. My wife and I keep dark chocolate and a nice selection of wines in the house--they're treats we both enjoy. I don't live like a monk or anything. I just keep track of my calories so that I can make conscious choices that support my goals, rather than just acting in the dark.

Good luck!

 

[feeb]

Nice one Steve you are quite right - i am of the mindset that loosing weight is about being healthier and exercising more -

that way its not like a diet which you have to control, you will gradually build up behaviours in your brain which make living healthier much easier and therefore it will be a perminant solution rather than a 'diet' or something that you just do to loose weight

But i totally respect Kara and how she has chosen to loose weight and keep it off - everyone is different

 

[feeb]

Rupert - I appreciate that calories are one way of measuring the food that you eat but they are not the only way - common sense is a pretty big factor too

look above for how i have replaced stodgy meaty meals with lovely wholesome fish n veggie meals, i am not counting every calorie i put in, but i am making balanced choices towards a healthier life

I think that if you count calories, you get quite a quick response from your body, whereas i have waited a good few weeks to recieve any thing from mine to suggest that i am doing any good - fortunatly this morning i stood on the scales and i have lost weight Finally - am very happy

This thread wasnt supposed to be about calorie counting or diet, i am happy to adjust my diet in my own way which suits myself and my family, but i was interested in peoples ideas on weight training, due to the response i got, i went and did some leg weight work today

I am happy to handle my diet, i reckon i am doing okay with it and calorie counting is not for me - just eating healthy - thats the way to do it

 

[KaraCooks]

Yeah, for me calorie counting is absolutely not about denial or obsession. It's about a healthy knowledge of what I'm putting in my body. But as you said, everyone is different.

 

[KaraCooks]

You know, upon further reflection, I'd like to add one thing .. .I am a big believer that there is no "one right way" to lose weight. There are lots of variations on the theme and some people are able to manage food quantity w/out counting calories.

What I object to is the statement that "calorie counting makes people stay fat" and that it's "soul sucking" and "obsessive" and "deprivation eating" and all those other phrases.

If YOU don't like it, super. If YOU have found something else that works, awesome.

But putting down something that is proven to work and is, at it's most fundamental, at the heart of all weight loss is a huge disservice to people who are reading the thread who might not understand that what you're expressing is personal opinion and not fact.

Calorie counting does not keep people fat.
Calorie counting is not obsessive (and if you make it so that's not about the calorie counting itself, it's about an obsessive nature)
Calorie counting has nothing to do with depriving yourself (in fact, IMO, calorie counting is far less deprivational than the diets that force you to eliminate whole groups of foods).
Calorie counting has nothing to do with "constantly worrying" about weight or food.

Anyone is welcome to choose to see those attributes, but I object to having them forced on everyone just because.

 

[feeb]

You know, upon further reflection, I'd like to add one thing .. .I am a big believer that there is no "one right way" to lose weight. There are lots of variations on the theme and some people are able to manage food quantity w/out counting calories.

I am also a big believer that there is no right way to loose weight, just as i am a believer that there is no laws for everyone, i might need more food than you to survive, basing my entire schemes on 'an average' which is what calorie counting is, is basically denying the fact that everyone is different.

What I object to is the statement that "calorie counting makes people stay fat" and that it's "soul sucking" and "obsessive" and "deprivation eating" and all those other phrases.

And i objected to being informed that the ONLY way to loose weight was to count calories, calories are a fairly new invention and people have been loosing weight for years, some calories are very good for you (fruit) and will assist you in loosing weight whilst being rich in calories, some foods are very fatty but Low in calories, doesnt make them good for you - i am studied nutrition (albeit briefly) and i can assure you that though calorie counting is ONE way to judge what goes into your body, it is not the only way, neither is it fool proof.

If YOU don't like it, super. If YOU have found something else that works, awesome.

i have thank you, and i mentioned it in my first post and it was bought straight to calorie counting, not by me, i was talking about weightlifting and asking for advice on that (which i have followed, have the gym this morning when i can learn about the weights)

But putting down something that is proven to work and is, at it's most fundamental, at the heart of all weight loss is a huge disservice to people who are reading the thread who might not understand that what you're expressing is personal opinion and not fact.

As is putting down healthy eating and regular excercise, reverting straight back to 'diets' (as we will see in the next sentence) and assuming from my original post that i needed advice on nutrition because thats the 'Key to loosing weight' when really many factors come into making someone more healthy, what you eat is just one of those things.

Calorie counting does not keep people fat.

Actually, alot of people it does keep fat, they try and try and cant be bothered to count every single thing that goes into their body and they give up

Calorie counting is not obsessive (and if you make it so that's not about the calorie counting itself, it's about an obsessive nature)

No it is not for you, but for many, many others it can be - look at the Pro Ana sites online, people bragging about eating nothing all day but a piece of brown bread with cod on it, they are ALL calorie counting, on 'diets' (we will come to that word in a sec)

Calorie counting has nothing to do with depriving yourself (in fact, IMO, calorie counting is far less deprivational than the diets that force you to eliminate whole groups of foods).

Here is it, this question of 'diet' people go on diets where they worry constantly about their weight 'if i stay on this diet for 3 months i will be thin again!' And then what? As soons as you stop your fads and your 'Diets' your weight will come steaming back, in full force, thats why it MUST be a lifestyle choice, not a diet, this week i have learnt to cook two new dishes, next week i will learn two more again, they will be things i enjoy and can cook into the future. This idea of a 'diet' is just silly (IMHO) because if you come off your diet and do what you always did, you are just going to balloon back up in size.

Calorie counting has nothing to do with "constantly worrying" about weight or food.

I have met many, many people who think differently to that, women who are overweight and try and calorie count and eventually always fall and eat a kebab or something. Thing is Kara, this thread was never supposed to be about Calorie counting, it was supposed to be about exercise and using weights - the fact it has been brought up again and again by you does not lead me away from the idea that those into calorie counting are quite obessed with it. Otherwise you would be more happy for people to read this thread and think - Oh if i go to the gym 3 times a week and make healthier choices in life, i will be healthier and fitter. I didnt bring up calorie counting, you did.

Anyone is welcome to choose to see those attributes, but I object to having them forced on everyone just because.

Well i apologise for putting my thread about fitness in the fitness forum! i assumed there would be people here (like me) who rather than worrying about dramatic weightloss (which in itself is detrimental to health) would be thinking about actually getting more healthy and improving body tone and weight at the same time.

 

[feeb]

brilliant article here



in particular, this bit -

While the simplicity of counting calories makes this approach seem uncomplicated, unfortunately, there is more to food than just calories. Choosing your food choices solely based on numbers may reduce the calories you consume, but if you are eating a predominately low calorie junk food diet, the weight may come off, but it could be at the expense of your health. A low calorie diet isn't automatically a healthy diet. While a cup of orange soda contains fewer calories than the same amount of orange juice, the soda can't hold a candle to the juice when it comes to nutrition. Soda is basically sugar dissolved in water and devoid of any other nutrients. In comparison, eight ounces of OJ will meet your vitamin C needs for the day and is also an excellent source of potassium. To healthfully lose weight, you should follow a lower calorie, well-balanced diet that meets your nutritional needs by providing a variety of foods, such as whole grains, fruits, vegetables, fish, lean meats, poultry, dairy, and some vegetable oils.

Another caution about low calorie diets is that if you become overly zealous about calorie counting and reduce your calories too low, you could be putting yourself at risk of missing out on important nutrients, such as calcium and iron. It can become extremely challenging for women to meet their daily nutrient needs if they are consuming less than 1,600 calories daily.

Consuming a very low calorie diet can also cause weight loss to occur too rapidly and may make you feel fatigued and nauseous, cause constipation, and can also perpetuate the formation of gallstones. While losing weight at a rate of approximately ½ to 2 pounds weekly is generally regarded as safe, a more realistic goal would be to lose approximately 10 percent of your body weight over a six-month period. In other words, if you are overweight and need to shed 18 pounds, set your sights on losing no more than 3 pounds a month or less than a pound a week over the next six months.

 

[feeb]

Just got back from the gym - it was pretty gruelling! She sorted me out with a 1hr/1.5hr program involving swats, weights, balancing on balls and all sorts!

I have also changed my cardio round, i will be doing 20mins on a cross trainer, 10mins on the treadmill (run for a minute, walk for a minute) and then 5mins on the step trainer (its a killer!)

I learnt how to do assisted pull ups, got the right weights to do hip adjusters and am feeling very confident about things

It will be fun to get stuck in tomorrow - though i fear i will be knackered afterwards!

 

[Steve]

I am also a big believer that there is no right way to loose weight, just as i am a believer that there is no laws for everyone,

I think a lot of hairs are being split here.

This is real simple.

Some people do very well and are happy counting calories.

Others do very poorly and are unhappy counting calories.

Both groups need to eat less calories than their bodies need to lose weight.

Therefore, success is about finding what works for you that also controls calories.

It's that simple.

Sure, people are different. But we're not all unique butterflies, either.

Thermodynamics apply to everyone.

Like it or not.

Which I think is a point that needs to be made in this thread since it seems to be a topic that's being danced around.

i might need more food than you to survive, basing my entire schemes on 'an average' which is what calorie counting is,

Just to be clear, I have clients who I disallow from counting calories... so I'm not of the opinion that one way is right over another.

That said, calorie counters DO account for differences in individual factors.

- the larger you are the more food you can eat and still lose weight
- the more active you are the more food you can eat and still lose weight
- once calories are "set," it's important to track rate of weight loss and adjust intake according to how fast or slow you're losing

on and on.

The point is, nobody is suggesting to pick an arbitrary calorie intake and eat this without paying attention to these kinds of factors I mention above.

is basically denying the fact that everyone is different.

Based on what I said above and what I know about Kara, no... she doesn't deny that fact.

If she did, she's say something like, "Everyone should eat 1200 calories regardless of size, activity, metabolic rate, etc."

Rather, she'd customize caloric requirements based on INDIVIDUAL DIFFERENCES.

I've seen her note multiple times now that calorie counting isn't for everyone.

And I'll note again, we're all bound by the laws of thermodynamics... so there's no getting around that.

And i objected to being informed that the ONLY way to loose weight was to count calories, calories are a fairly new invention and people have been loosing weight for years,

Slow your roll for a sec....

Calories are relatively new, I suppose you could say. They were introduced in the early 1800's and sure... there was a lot of time before that. But at this point, they're a bit outdated.

Neverminding that fact...

Calories haven't been around forever, but energy has. And that's all that calories are... a way of defining a unit of energy. You can call them calories, toads, pink elephants, or whatever else you'd like to call them...

The fact remains, energy has been around for quite a long time.

To lose weight, you need to be in an energetic deficit. You needed that before calories were created.

That's an important distinction.

some calories are very good for you (fruit) and will assist you in loosing weight whilst being rich in calories, some foods are very fatty but Low in calories, doesnt make them good for you -

You're confusing calories for nutrients.

Calories are not nutrients.

Nutrients provide our bodies calories (energy).

A calorie is a calorie just as an inch is an inch. It can be nothing else. It's simply a unit of measurement.

Nutrients have varying roles, responses, etc in the body.

Also, you can get fat on fruit just as you can get fat on candy. If you're taking in more energy than your body needs, regardless of how healthy or unhealthy the foods are that are providing said energy, you'll gain weight.

i am studied nutrition (albeit briefly) and i can assure you that though calorie counting is ONE way to judge what goes into your body, it is not the only way, neither is it fool proof.

All my above statements are made simply b/c you seem to dance around the idea of whether or not calories matter. I can't tell if you're trying to suggest they don't.

If that's not what you're suggesting... no harm no foul. Hopefully someone will take something away from what's been discussed. I'm certainly not attacking you or your ideas.

It simply seems that we're walking a fine line about what we're saying and I feel it's important to make clear distinctions.

I'll be happy to discuss things further. Or, you can simply say, "Steve... I knew all that."

And that's fine.

 

[KaraCooks]

Ok, this is getting to the ridiculous hair-splitting part.

I'm going back to the beginning. You said that counting calories was the reason people stay fat, that it was damaging and "soul destroying". I think that's excessive and unnecessary.

And i objected to being informed that the ONLY way to loose weight was to count calories,

I don't think anyone has said that counting calories is the ONLY way to lose weight. IN fact I've said repeatedly in this thread that it's ONE way.

As is putting down healthy eating and regular excercise,

Where in this thread have I put down healthy eating and exercise?

Actually, alot of people it does keep fat, they try and try and cant be bothered to count every single thing that goes into their body and they give up

So it's not actually calorie counting that keeps them fat. It's the fact that they quit counting and "give up" as you put it.

No it is not for you, but for many, many others it can be - look at the Pro Ana sites online, people bragging about eating nothing all day but a piece of brown bread with cod on it, they are ALL calorie counting,

So because a group of people with a serious mental illness abuse the principle of counting calories, you're going to use that as a reason to say calorie counting is bad? That's like saying because some doctors mis-prescribe medicine, you should never go to any doctor. The slippery slope argument is a logical fallacy (look it up).

Here is it, this question of 'diet' people go on diets where they worry constantly about their weight 'if i stay on this diet for 3 months i will be thin again!' And then what? As soons as you stop your fads and your 'Diets' your weight will come steaming back, in full force, thats why it MUST be a lifestyle choice, not a diet,

Exactly. Which is why calorie counting works for me. You're not on a "diet". You're learning how to make healthy choices about food for life, rather than following some diet plan. We're in agreement on this.

I have met many, many people who think differently to that, women who are overweight and try and calorie count and eventually always fall and eat a kebab or something.

Again, you're blaming calorie counting for the actions of the person. That's another logical fallacy.

Thing is Kara, this thread was never supposed to be about Calorie counting, it was supposed to be about exercise and using weights

Yup. But you made some ridiculous comments about calorie counting ... and I felt it was important to point out how ridiculous they were.

i assumed there would be people here (like me) who rather than worrying about dramatic weightloss (which in itself is detrimental to health) would be thinking about actually getting more healthy and improving body tone and weight at the same time.

Oh PUH-LEEZE. The holier-than-thou poor mouthing about how you're the only one concerned with healthy weight loss and fitness is just ridiculous. If you read through my over 2000 posts on this site, you'll see that every post I make prioritizes being HEALTHY and making reasonable choices OVER "dramatic weightloss". You'll see that everything I advise is based on eating healthy food in reasonable amounts and getting exercise in whatever form you can.

So don't play that "I'm the only one who cares about health" game with me. Start taking responsibility for your own words. You used words like "obsessive" and "soul sucking" and so forth. Those are words designed to provoke an argument and now you're running crying because you got the response you wanted.

I'm pretty much done with this thread.