Should I cut??

[Danger_Dave]

Cardio does not gain you lean mass even if you stuff your face. When you do intense weight training with intense cardio, your body will not improve as much in weight training than weight training alone.
A clean bulk is possible, but it would be more efficient and easier to bulk first, while gaining some amount of fat, then cutting. If you are trying to say that cardiovascular training during weight training will not impede mass gains at all, then you're confused.

edit: took out some unneccary hostile remarks

 

[Chillen]

I think its simply stupid to think you have to put on fat in order to gain muscle, when you think about it.

The trick is to eat a LOT and train with cardio A LOT. That is how you gain lean mass without fat. You guys tend to just make people fat with NEGLECT of cardiovascular. There is more than one way to train and your Bulking + Cutting is popular but not the best of the ways to sculpt a muscular, defined body.

Thank you,

I can't help but think that the advice you are getting from these boards are just making you fat. .

Look, dude.

Let me some it up for you.

One can minimize it. (fat accumulation)

But, not totally eliminate it (fat accumulation) On a bulk.

Different strokes for different folks means different methods of application, and it ISNT......a one size fits all.

Even with the best estimates (that vary per person) on a bulking surplus diet, if the excess (after building and repairing is complete), even with additional cardio, the surplus calories have a high probablity in being stored as fat.

One has to consider the variances of one's metabolism, and when one does, though some basic and advanced knowledge can be applied, there IS NO ONE ABSOLUTE SCIENCE application.

You havent been around enough on this forum to speculate anything about my beloved forum brother and sista's. If you were, you wouldn't be making some of your rather rediculous statements about our forum.


Best wishes,


Chillen

 

[highanddry]

Ok you guys do your thing, I'm not going to convince you to drop your traditions. I am simply suggesting as a nutritionist and personal trainer, that there are other methods of getting the same result in a clean way and that cardio should be incorporated into every form of training. I have seen too many times guys "bulking" and ending up in terrible shape, both internally and externally.

Btw, no insult was meant to any 'brotha' or 'sista'

I'll leave you to it

 

[Danger_Dave]

I'm sure you also went to a very prestigious schools and your test scores are through the roof. And of course, you must have such a wide range of clientel to support your methods. Let me guess, you are alwyn cosgrove himself? Dr. John Berardi?

I've had so called "nutritionsis and personal trainers" tell me before that squats are BAD FOR YOU. labeling yourslef as those doesn't make your theory any more feasible. and since you don't seem to be addressing any of the points myself or chillen is making and you seem to be unwilling to provide scientific or experimental data to prove your hypotheses... I can only deduce that you are full of it.

but yeah, I'll forego trying to draw out some sort of explanation from you (because i doubt it will be sufficient) and instead say yes, please leave us to it.


p.s. bulk doesn't mean get fat as ****. besides, this man needs to cut fat before he does anybodies method of gaining muscle (in my opinon). even you can't possibly suggest that he will be able to cut fat while gaining muscle on your amazing cardio program

 

[highanddry]

^ Heh, why so angry? Don't bother answering that, I'm not coming back.
Its always nice to have a 16 year old kid lecture you about higher education, nutrition and the science of the body.. I'm not here to make enemies, only to try to inspire change where it is needed. What you think is "easier" is not so for some genetic variations. What you consider to be the best or only way to accomplish your goals is your limitation.

Good Luck to everyone in accomplishing their goals!

 

[Chillen]

^ Heh, why so angry? Don't bother answering that, I'm not coming back.
Its always nice to have a 16 year old kid lecture you about higher education, nutrition and the science of the body.. I'm not here to make enemies, only to try to inspire change where it is needed. What you think is "easier" is not so for some genetic variations. What you consider to be the best or only way to accomplish your goals is your limitation.

Good Luck to everyone in accomplishing their goals!

We need more people like you. Your frame of mind is good. However, the frame of mind of the forum concerning diet and fitness is spot on. We are always open for discussion, but leave open the chance the someone may have a different approach than yours (that is backed by science and sound education), and there is more than one way to skin a cat, once knowledge of diet and fitness is obtained.

I wish you wouldnt leave. I think you could contribute sound advice.


Best wishes


Chillen

 

[Danger_Dave]

^ Heh, why so angry? Don't bother answering that, I'm not coming back.
Its always nice to have a 16 year old kid lecture you about higher education, nutrition and the science of the body.. I'm not here to make enemies, only to try to inspire change where it is needed. What you think is "easier" is not so for some genetic variations. What you consider to be the best or only way to accomplish your goals is your limitation.

Good Luck to everyone in accomplishing their goals!

I'm going to assume you do come back, people like you normally, do, but if not, no big **** for me.

I'm not angry, there is no point at being angry in someone who has nothing with which to support his arguments. honestly, based on my nearly perfect SAT score, and my matching class rank and GPA, i'll more than likely be going to a far better institution than you have attended and there, I will be able to better educate myself as to nutrition and the science of the body.

I'm not here to make enemies either. but your statements I believe are incorrect, and your statement about how a deficit diet will make you gain weight I know is incorrect. again. you have adressed and explained nothing. as it stands, you have stated only a theory, but with no supporting facts.

Since you are so knowledgable in nutrition and the science of the body. Please, explain why intense cardio during weight training leads to great mass gains without fat gains. Explain how a caloric deficit will lead to WEIGHT GAIN.
please.

otherwise, I consider the matter closed.

 

[Danger_Dave]

if some sort of MOD wants to give him a day or so to respond (unles he really doesn't come back) it'd probably be a good idea to get rid of the excess/unnecessary posts.

 

[iWasFatBefore]

The insults could go, but other than that it is a good discussion. For example, I didnt know to maintain for a week or two, then start the cut. I jumped right into it about 2 weeks ago, going from a bulk right to a cut. Any onther tips would be great.

A friend has me taking "" and a protien called "High 5" inbetween meals and "iso extreme" pre and post workout. All of these products are Max Muscle products. A body builder by the name of Jay Cutler told me it was possible to gain muscle while cutting. I've been reading these forums for almost 2 years and have NEVER heard that! Is he talking about cutting while on steroids or what?? Thanks guys.

 

[Danger_Dave]

The insults could go, but other than that it is a good discussion. For example, I didnt know to maintain for a week or two, then start the cut. I jumped right into it about 2 weeks ago, going from a bulk right to a cut. Any onther tips would be great.

A friend has me taking "Anabol Cuts" and a protien called "High 5" inbetween meals and "iso extreme" pre and post workout. All of these products are Max Muscle products. A body builder by the name of Jay Cutler told me it was possible to gain muscle while cutting. I've been reading these forums for almost 2 years and have NEVER heard that! Is he talking about cutting while on steroids or what?? Thanks guys.

*EDIT* In my opinon *edit*It's not possible to gain muscle while cutting (I don't do steroids so I don't know if that's the case). Unless you are a beginner (NEVER LIFTED BEFORE), you can't gain muscle while cutting. Even then, I don't know. Yo can ask around, but I'm nearly positive you can't gain muscle WHILE simultaneously losing fat. One requires caloric surplus, the other requires deficit. How could you do both at once?

Look, I don't know what highanddry was getting at, he did not explain himself or post anything particularly substantive as to his methods.

What I know is, I've lost 55 lbs. I know others who have lost weight, here is how you do it.

AFter bulk, 1 week break from lifting, slowly lower back to maintenance. Do some light work for a couple weeks at about maintenance. Take another week to slowly move down to your deficit.

This month amount of time gives ample (maybe even too much) time for your metabolism to adjust, and there won't be any of this bull**** gain fat. (Honestly though, if you have a true deficit in which your daily use of calories is greater than what you take in, this takes metabolism into consideration btw, you WILL NOT BE GAINING MASS OF ANY KIND).

You asked if you should cut. I think so. I tihnk you look like you have alot of muscle underneath and you would do well to cut at this point.

About supplements: I never used any to cut with, except for maybe something with protein in it. but that's all you ever need in my opinion. You can successfully cut with or without supplementation. I lack the knowledge to tell you anything about supplements, other than it is my opinion you needn't waste your money.


Here is a link of programs by professionals that I've compiled. You got waterbury, cosgrove, etc. in here. THere are quite a few programs focused on fat loss (I recommend 10x3 for fat loss). I encourage you to take a look. I also highly recommend you read the link at the bottom of the first post called "Hierarchy of FAt Loss"
http://training.fitness.com/weight-...-split-maybe-read-first-34522.html#post304151

If you have any questisn I'll be happy to try and help you out.

 

[iWasFatBefore]

Thanks for your help. I appreciate it.

 

[highanddry]

Well, I wasn't going to return but my e-mail alerted me to some of the responses and perhaps I was too hasty in that proclamation. I enjoy a mentally stimulating conversation, but its hard for me to respect you (Danger) when your tone is so aggressive.

You may be a bright guy, but you defeat yourself in trying to make this a D-waving contest. 'My grades are so good', 'my test scores are so good': It really doesn't mean anything to me because 1) You don't know who I am or what I've accomplished
and 2) I don't know you or find any rock solid correlation between high test scores and intelligence.

That being said, I apologize for my part in making it seem like the boards give out bad advice, they do not but what does happen is that often times, good advice is taken too far or given to hastily.

Point:

I didn't know to maintain for a week or two, then start the cut.

I don't have a ton of time to go over all the reasons that you should incorporate cardio even in strength training and body building, because I'm trying to do this quickly from work! I can however recommend that people who are interested really do some research. Google it.

A prime example can be derived from the routine of any professional athelete. Look at Jordan, Bruce Lee, any running back. They are muscular, strong and do tons of cardio. Now that is not scientific proof in itself, however it is certainly telling.

There are a couple schools of thought on the subject, but it is quite extreme to do no cardio at all. Let me remind you that "cardio" is a broad term and does not mean spending hours running but can be attributed to raising the BPM's.

"Eliminating cardio exercise, however, is not the answer. Find ways to include cardio workouts in your strength-training routine. Former Mr. America Bob Gajda has developed a workout that can not only increase your endurance, but also shed fat and maintain muscle. This workout is known as peripheral heart action or PHA. The concept of this strength-training workout is to incorporate “super setting” by utilizing all areas of the body. PHA prevents blood from stagnating in one area, thus forcing the heart to pump blood to the entire body. In turn, this creates an effective aerobic and strength training routine. Since the basis of this exercise is strength training, no muscle is lost."
Excerpt from-http://www.alive.com/3881a6a2.php?subject_bread_cramb=94

The fact is, although your methods are well supported and reasonable you have to understand that a lot of people fail without being fully informed as to 'bulking' and 'cutting' properly and in the neglect of cardiovascular exercise.

Thanks to Chillen for reasonable and thought provoking comments and good luck to everyone~! These will be my last words however.. on this topic at least

 

[Danger_Dave]

Well, I wasn't going to return but my e-mail alerted me to some of the responses and perhaps I was too hasty in my proclamation. I enjoy a mentally stimulating conversation, but its hard for me to respect you (Danger) when your tone is so aggressive.

You may be a bright guy, but you defeat yourself in trying to make this a D-waving contest. 'My grades are so good', 'my test scores are so good': It really doesn't mean anything to me because 1) You don't know who I am or what I've accomplished
and 2) I don't know you or find any rock solid correlation between high test scores and intelligence.

That being said, I apologize for my part in making it seem like the boards give out bad advice, they do not but what does happen is that often times, good advice is taken too far or given to hastily.

Point:

I don't have a ton of time to go over all the reasons that you should incorporate cardio even in strength training and body building, because I'm trying to do this quickly from work! I can however recommend that people who are interested really do some research. Google it.

A prime example can be derived from the routine of any professional athelete. Look at Jordan, Bruce Lee, any running back. They are muscular, strong and do tons of cardio. Now that is not scientific proof in itself, however it is certainly telling.

There are a couple schools of thought on the subject, but it is quite extreme to do no cardio at all. Let me remind you that "cardio" is a broad term and does not mean spending hours running but can be attributed to raising the BPM's.

"Eliminating cardio exercise, however, is not the answer. Find ways to include cardio workouts in your strength-training routine. Former Mr. America Bob Gajda has developed a workout that can not only increase your endurance, but also shed fat and maintain muscle. This workout is known as peripheral heart action or PHA. The concept of this strength-training workout is to incorporate “super setting” by utilizing all areas of the body. PHA prevents blood from stagnating in one area, thus forcing the heart to pump blood to the entire body. In turn, this creates an effective aerobic and strength training routine. Since the basis of this exercise is strength training, no muscle is lost."
Excerpt from-http://www.alive.com/3881a6a2.php?subject_bread_cramb=94

The fact is, although your methods are well supported and reasonable you have to understand that a lot of people fail without being fully informed as to 'bulking' and 'cutting' properly.

Thanks to Chillen for reasonable and thought provoking comments and good luck to everyone~! These will be my last words however.. on this topic at least

Thanks for the explanation, but isn't it the case that your quote says you can maintain muscle while improving endurance and shedding fat? (I assumed this was the idea of a cut. Maintain muscle, lose fat...) Maybe (and it happens) I misinterpreted but I thought you were suggesting that he somehow lose fat while simultaneously gaining muscle. because I thought that the poin of this thread was that the guy should be cutting.

Still, care to explain how being in a deficit leads to weight gain? I can't see how it's possible?

Either way, sorry for being hostile. I overreact often.



as a side note though, and this isn't a bash on your opinion or at all related to the question of cutting/bulking or whatever. I tihnk it's stupid not to see a correlation between consistently high grades and test scores and how this relates to the intelligence of a person. Sure anything can be studied for, but things should be studied for. It's not like stupid people get great grades (They can if they cheat of corse) or pwn standardized tests etc.