Rant about dodgy weight loss tactics

[fortyfour]

What do you think?

Things i don't believe in

1. Low fat dairy foods - it tastes bad and is not satisfying

2. low fat anything - as above

3. snacking all day long - you get hungry all the time. when you eat, there's always the risk you will want to eat more so its better than when you eat you are not hungry at the end of it.

4. drinking too much water - you have to pee all the time, unless you live in a dry climate. By all means water is a better thirst quencher than anything else if you are thirsty though. But its a myth that you are already dehydrated if you are thirsty.


5. vitamins and fancy so-called health foods. These are all gimmicks that waste your money. Only people with obviously compromised diets need vitamins in a bottle. Whole foods are much better.

6. treats - the thin edge of the wedge to breaking your diet

7. what you guys call it cheats day. - it weakens your resolve to change your dietary habits. You have to exercise more control. You end up thinking about your treat food and treat days too much. Its better to forget about these sorts of food and be in a position where you don't miss things at all.

8. low carb diets - people get confused about which are good and which are bad carbs. The only bad carbs are those made of refined foods and which have been subject to a lot of processing. Carbs are good. They are a better source of energy than protein. Although i believe for people who are insulin resistant the whole story is a differnt matter. But i am talking in general here, not for people who have digestive system dysfunction.

9. going hungry. - its better to eat more rather than go hungry. But make sure its low fat food (by which I don't mean artificially low fat). There are nutritional reasons why its not good to go hungry. But the short answer is that you end up eating more when you do give in unless you have strong self control which is not what most overweight people have much of. So avoid creating situations where self-control is needed.

10. Replacing sugar with honey or other sweetener.

11. a habit artificial sweeteners. - getting over sugar and sweetness altogether is easier and more enduring.

The reason i have for a lot of these points is that most overweight people have problems with self control and i think these foods don't really deal with that. We need to eat better types of food. We need to learn to cook healthy food.

 

[Sunflower2]

I agree with some of these but not with others.
I love low-fat dairy foods and find them satisfying..Same with low-fat anything really. For example, low-fat cheese tastes almost exactly the same to me. I can't stand the taste of full-fat milk either.
I also think cheat days (if you can't be strict with yourself) are a good idea. When you're body gets used to the amount of calories/foods you are eating I think it's good to mix it up and eat whatever you want (within reason) for a day or a meal.

 

[Monster2]

What do you think?
Things i don't believe in

1. Low fat dairy foods - it tastes bad and is not satisfying
Depends what it is. Generally speaking anything made from WHOLE MILK has a ton of fat in it, so most any dairy products that are decent are going to be low fat. Low Fat ice cream tastes pretty darn good to me!

2. low fat anything - as above
Really depends. I've had crappy low fat food, we all have, but there's nothing wrong with cutting out fat. Lean pockets (my opinion) are a perfect example of that. Hot pockets are greasy and don't taste as good as lean pockets, at least not to me.

3. snacking all day long - you get hungry all the time. when you eat, there's always the risk you will want to eat more so its better than when you eat you are not hungry at the end of it.
Different strokes for different folks. Having a healthy snack helps me avoid eating chips and candy bars from the vending machine. Even Gatoraid will fill me up vs. other junk food.

4. drinking too much water - you have to pee all the time, unless you live in a dry climate. By all means water is a better thirst quencher than anything else if you are thirsty though. But its a myth that you are already dehydrated if you are thirsty.
I don't know what you mean by "too much" water, but I STRONGLY believe that it helps you curb your appetite. Having water with your meal always helps. Soup is really filling, but pretty low in cals.

5. vitamins and fancy so-called health foods. These are all gimmicks that waste your money. Only people with obviously compromised diets need vitamins in a bottle. Whole foods are much better.
I think this is a statement of vast overgeneralization. Some people really need that stuff, like lactose intolerant women need calcium pills, etc.

6. treats - the thin edge of the wedge to breaking your diet
???? not sure what you mean by this. you can have sweets or stuff that tastes good that fit into your daily plan. As long as you don't overdo it.

7. what you guys call it cheats day. it weakens your resolve to change your dietary habits. You have to exercise more control. You end up thinking about your treat food and treat days too much. Its better to forget about these sorts of food and be in a position where you don't miss things at all.
I have mixed feelings about this. I sort of agree with you on one hand, but on the other, there is scientific proof that mixing up your diet helps break plateaus and stuff. My jury is still out on this one.

8. low carb diets - people get confused about which are good and which are bad carbs. The only bad carbs are those made of refined foods and which have been subject to a lot of processing. Carbs are good. They are a better source of energy than protein. Although i believe for people who are insulin resistant the whole story is a differnt matter. But i am talking in general here, not for people who have digestive system dysfunction.
If people get confused, it's really their own fault for not researching what they need to know. I had a friend who swears by low carbs, and he's doing pretty well with his weight. But I do think you're right, having some GOOD carbs in your diet can be beneficial.

9. going hungry. - its better to eat more rather than go hungry. But make sure its low fat food (by which I don't mean artificially low fat). There are nutritional reasons why its not good to go hungry. But the short answer is that you end up eating more when you do give in unless you have strong self control which is not what most overweight people have much of. So avoid creating situations where self-control is needed.
Ideally, this is a great idea. But you can't just control or predict your hunger all the time!

10. Replacing sugar with honey or other sweetener.
again, different strokes for different folks.

11. a habit artificial sweeteners. - getting over sugar and sweetness altogether is easier and more enduring.

The reason i have for a lot of these points is that most overweight people have problems with self control and i think these foods don't really deal with that. We need to eat better types of food. We need to learn to cook healthy food.[/QUOTE]
I understand what you're saying, but if some people have success with stuff you don't really like that's fine. Before you get "preachy" with others you should make sure you're well informed about what CAN work for people.

 

[fortyfour]

Thanks for your responses.

Today i decided to drink water instead of coffee. To my surprise i haven't had a single cup of coffee yet. I believe water is good for you and if you are in the habit of drinking softdrinks and fruitjuices all day long, then water is the best replacement. There's no doubt about that. Even perhaps the amount of coffee i usually drink is not so great although coffee is not the enemy it used to be. But i think forcing yourself to drink water is silly.

"If it works for people" The truth of that is only in the longterm. Making this work in the longterm is the real challenge.

 

[Bricka]

My opinion is cheat days are actually beneficial to burning fat.

There is a hormone called leptin. When you are on a calorie deficit, you have a low level of leptin. Leptin keeps a roaring metabolism (the rate at which energy/fat is burned etc). if you have low levels of leptin, your metabolism is low. If you have a cheat day with lots of calories, the leptin spikes which fires up the metabolism.

SO, when you begin your calorie deficit again, the metabolism is ready and raring to go!

 

[Melancholy]

My opinion is cheat days are actually beneficial to burning fat.

There is a hormone called leptin. When you are on a calorie deficit, you have a low level of leptin. Leptin keeps a roaring metabolism (the rate at which energy/fat is burned etc). if you have low levels of leptin, your metabolism is low. If you have a cheat day with lots of calories, the leptin spikes which fires up the metabolism.

SO, when you begin your calorie deficit again, the metabolism is ready and raring to go!

I am sorry Bricka, but please quote a medical reference before making such claims. I would hate to think people would embrace a "cheat day" without much knowledge about the damage it can do.

A study in 2000 by Chin-Chance C, Polonsky K, Schoeller D (2000) found that the Leptin system is more sensitive to starvation than to overfeeding; leptin levels change more when food intake decreases than when it increases. Very-low calorie diets cause more harm to Leptin, than this "cheat day" you are talking about.

I just spent some time on a medical site, and unfortunately cannot find a lot of scientific evidence that supports leptin levels related to a day of feating, gorging, increased consumption, etc.

 

[ijustwannabefit]

Interesting - I am enjoying hearing other people's perspectives on some of these!

 

[Melancholy]

regarding low-fat food.

I think it's completely fine to sub low-fat food if you can do so without feeling cheated. I believe if there is something that is low-fat, that does not sacrifice taste, it's a nutritious and prudent choice to chose the low-fat option.

It's funny you pointed out dairy, because I find myself satisfied more often with the low-fat dairy than ANY other low fat food. Low fat crackers/ bread/ always has a textural change by lowering the fat... dairy typically doesnt' (please note I hate Fat free dairy... that really is gross). For example, low fat sour-cream to me is excellent, I use it all the time. Low fat cream-cheese, cheddar, etc. is good. By picking a low-fat food, I am still making nutritious choices, but not sacrificing taste (to me).

 

[amy1985]

My take:

1. I genuinely prefer most low fat dairy (although with cheese- apart from cottage cheese- it's only full fat for me, which is why I avoid cheese most of the time). It just tastes better to me (and I don't think I have more of it than I would of full fat stuff- this is just a habit I've gotten into, one I've been in for many years, dieting or not. My mum switched me to skim milk when I was 8 years old and I've never looked back).

2. Low fat other stuff- it depends. Some of it tastes good, some of it's awful. It's worth a shot (as long as it's not loaded up with other things to compensate, but overcoming that is as simple as reading nutritional labels).

3. Snacking. If I don't snack I feel lightheaded and all other kinds of horrible. I simply can't manage on three meals a day. Don't know why, but I need to eat every couple to every few hours in order to feel well (and if it were a choice between "lose weight" and "be able to snack so I don't feel sick"- snacking wins). But snacking doesn't have to be the enemy- I just try to keep it mostly to fruit or vegetables.

4. Don't know the facts about this, but I have read that most people are dehydrated. I'm trying to drink more, and it does (albeit very temporarily) ease some hunger. I suppose I'm neutral on this one.

5. As was said above, overgeneralisation. For a lot of people? Probably true. But a lot of us (myself included) have been advised by doctors to take supplements for deficiencies we aren't making up through healthy diets (for me it's iron)

6. Totally don't agree. As with snacking- if being thin means never eating chocolate again, bring me my fat suit, I'm there. It's not worth it, and I just can't do it. I think these things need to be planned for and "budgeted", but for most of us, giving up on the things we love, as bad as they are, is completely unsustainable even in the short term, let alone for the rest of our lives.

7. I'm not sure on this one. I don't think I'll be doing cheat days myself (I'm not sold on the concept)- except where I can't help it (say, going away and won't be able to cook my own food), but I view it the same way as treats. Something to be budgeted for.

8. I don't know very much about it, but low carb diets seem to be a fad thing to me. If it works for people, fine- but it doesn't seem necessary and may make it difficult to get all the nutrients needed.

9. We can't control all of our situations. OK, going hungry isn't ideal, and it shouldn't be planned for. But if I (say) go to an academic seminar and want to meet an illuminous speaker from the other side of the world in my subject area, I haven't had a chance to eat since lunchtime, it's about dinner time, I'm getting hungry, and I either go find something healthy to eat or have a conversation/ network with illuminous speaker? Damn right I go hungry! (at these events there's often wine and chips on offer- which I would try not to take because they're not nutritious) And having done such things (unfortunately not- yet- for such exciting reasons, more like "went shopping, had a choice of McDonalds, Burger King, or hunger, chose hunger and ate when I got home") I haven't eaten more or significantly more than I normally would have done (certainly not enough to break my calorie allowance, and likely only, in my case, a piece of fruit).

10. Depends on people's goals and tastes- personally, I have a very sweet tooth and I need some sugary things. Not everything can be fixed by adding fruit to it. Honey is a slightly lower calorie hit (depending on the honey used) and achieves the same effect. And artificial sweetener is ultimately better than the alternative.

11. See above about treats- if you can't sustain it it won't happen.

I agree about healthy food, home cooked food, etc. You've been following my diary more closely than anyone, Andrea, you know that's what I'm doing. But as people have said, different things work for different people, and many of those details just cannot work for me.

 

[ChefChiTown]

The reason i have for a lot of these points is that most overweight people have problems with self control and i think these foods don't really deal with that. We need to eat better types of food. We need to learn to cook healthy food.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you contradict yourself rather blatantly here.

You say that overweight people need to learn to eat better types of food and cook healthier for themselves, but before you say that, you say that you don't agree with a bunch of stuff that would definitely help people get on the right track. And, this is why I say that...

Things i don't believe in

1. Low fat dairy foods - it tastes bad and is not satisfying

2. low fat anything - as above

Low fat foods are what overweight people should be eating. Eating foods that are high in fat is one of the contributors to their weight problem. I don't see how you can disagree with people eating low fat foods. Why? Because it doesn't taste good? So what? It's better for you. And, it's what overweight people should be eating.

I don't see how you can disagree with this.

3. snacking all day long - you get hungry all the time. when you eat, there's always the risk you will want to eat more so its better than when you eat you are not hungry at the end of it.

9. going hungry. - its better to eat more rather than go hungry. But make sure its low fat food (by which I don't mean artificially low fat). There are nutritional reasons why its not good to go hungry. But the short answer is that you end up eating more when you do give in unless you have strong self control which is not what most overweight people have much of. So avoid creating situations where self-control is needed.

You don't agree with people letting themselves get hungry, but you also don't agree with them snacking. So, what's a person supposed to do when they get hungry, but they've recently just eaten? Eat an entire second meal, just to avoid 'snacking?' That makes no sense.

Also, if you don't allow yourself to get hungry, that must mean that you're just constantly eating throughout the day. Which, by definition, is snacking...which you disagree with.

And, you follow that by saying that overweight people should avoid creating situations where self-control is needed. That's exactly what snacks are for. If you're a little bit hungry, it's better to eat a small (and healthy) snack as opposed to letting yourself get hungrier and hungrier, so you end up stuffing way too much food into your face when it's finally meal time. Snacks help. And, even if you don't want to see it this way, having a small snack is a sign of self-control. Eating like a pig so you never get hungry again is not.

I don't see how you can disagree with this.

4. drinking too much water - you have to pee all the time, unless you live in a dry climate. By all means water is a better thirst quencher than anything else if you are thirsty though. But its a myth that you are already dehydrated if you are thirsty.

Drinking water constantly does three things...

1) It keeps you hydrated, which is necessary for your body to function properly
2) It helps flush your kidneys and rid your body of toxins
3) It keeps you from drinking other things, such as soda and juices

Drinking a lot of water is probably one of the best things an overweight person can do. In order to lose weight, a person needs to cut calories. And, where better to cut immediate calories than eliminating all of the soda they drink and replacing it with water? People need to learn to do that.

I don't see how you can disagree with this.

5. vitamins and fancy so-called health foods. These are all gimmicks that waste your money. Only people with obviously compromised diets need vitamins in a bottle. Whole foods are much better.

Most people don't need vitamins that come in pill form. This I will agree with you on.

6. treats - the thin edge of the wedge to breaking your diet

As long as you count your calories and stay within your range, who cares if a person has a 'treat' every once in a while? I'll address this more in a second, but it can actually be a huge help to do so.

7. what you guys call it cheats day. - it weakens your resolve to change your dietary habits. You have to exercise more control. You end up thinking about your treat food and treat days too much. Its better to forget about these sorts of food and be in a position where you don't miss things at all.

And here is where I address it...

Cheat days are harmless, as long as they are taken in moderation. It's hard (VERY HARD) to eat like an angel day in and day out - for overweight people especially. It's really hard to go from eating pizza and burgers to eating salads and fresh vegetables without hitting any speed bumps.

And, as long as progress is being made, there is nothing wrong with taking a break. Not only will cheat days provide people with something to look forward to (a mini-goal of sorts), but they also provide people with relaxation, comfort and stress release - all of which are extremely beneficial to a person's mental state. A day off increases the feeling of self worth, confidence, pride and accomplishment. And, it's a gigantic morale booster.

As you said yourself, most overweight people have problems with self-control. And, you can't have self-control without a mind that is at ease. And, since cheat days help ease a person's mind, I don't see how you can disagree with them.

8. low carb diets - people get confused about which are good and which are bad carbs. The only bad carbs are those made of refined foods and which have been subject to a lot of processing. Carbs are good. They are a better source of energy than protein. Although i believe for people who are insulin resistant the whole story is a differnt matter. But i am talking in general here, not for people who have digestive system dysfunction.

I don't like the low carb diet idea either. But, it works for a lot of people. Carbohydrates turn into sugar. And, if the carbohydrates aren't burned through activity such as exercise, they eventually turn into fat. And, since the point of overweight people losing weight is to get rid of fat (and get healthy), I can't really see how you disagree with this either.

Like I said, I personally don't like it (there are other ways of losing weight), but if a person has a low activity level and can't get up to do much, I think a low carb diet is just what the doctor ordered.

10. Replacing sugar with honey or other sweetener.

Why? What does it matter?

11. a habit artificial sweeteners. - getting over sugar and sweetness altogether is easier and more enduring.

You just said you don't agree with people replacing sugar with honey or other sweeteners, but now you're saying that people should just 'get over' sugar? I'm confused. First, you defend sugar. Then, you say that people should get over it?

 

[Korrie]

You just said you don't agree with people replacing sugar with honey or other sweeteners, but now you're saying that people should just 'get over' sugar? I'm confused. First, you defend sugar. Then, you say that people should get over it?

My take is that the OP doesn't like the use of ANY sugar, or sugar like substance...but thats really very unrealistic not to expect people to consume any sugar at all....its all about moderation

 

[fortyfour]

chef, I see i have not been very clear. I will try to get around to responding to all your points but not now. Its my bed time. And it will take me ages to get through them all.

That said, i realise that i started this thread in too much haste. I should have not have made though I stick by those strategies for myself. I see now that they may not work for other people but when i do respond, i will try to show you how they work for me and how they might work for other people.

 

[Jeanette401]

I think maybe it would have been better to say "things that don't work for me" rather than things you don't believe in

I find that on the low fat issue especially there are many things that I like, and many that are disgusting. And no fat and low fat are different Neutchfel(sp?) cream cheese tastes just like the real thing. Fat free cream cheese = edible in some cases. Chicken breasts vs chicken thighs - I'll take the white meat 2% dairy products - these are fine. Skinny Cow ice cream ... Mmmmmmmm.

Also, I'm not sure where you're getting that carbs are better than protein? Protein takes more energy to digest, and is required for your body to do its job. Carbs are not required - although your body definitely prefers to run off them if it can. Not that I'm promoting low carb, but getting enough protein is always a higher priority than getting carbs in.

As for treats and cheats, as you said self control is an issue, and if you read any of Lyle McDonald's site you can see he has several articles on rigid dieting. The end result is that if you never allow yourself any treats, one day you'll break down and instead of having one brownie, you'll eat 10. And then maybe follow it up with some ice cream, and maybe some... well, in any event, being too restrictive can be looking for failure.

 

[fortyfour]

Jeanette, and i think this addresses one of the chef's objections too, the problem with the treats is that most people who incorporate them into their diet, eat them every day or often rather than occasionally. Sometimes more than once a day. And then they wonder why they are not losing weight. The thing with treats on a regular basis is that they are high calorie for low satiety. So people are more hungry more often and i would contend that this is what leads people to come unstuck.

Also if you read people's food diaries, they break out quite often and have extra. I reallay believe its much more difficult to restrain yourself when you are eating them regularly.

Without the treats, you lose your taste for them very quickly. If your diet has no sweet (and i don't mean fruit which is much much less sweet) or fatty foods, you adjust very rapidly to their absence. So long as you keep having them in your diet, you are constantly looking forward to having one, particularly when you get a little bit hungry.

Its been two weeks now since i ate anything sweet. And i don't miss them. I've spoken to others who've done this and they say the same thing. I know from past experience it may be two months before i want to eat sweet foods. Also the last time i binged, whilst on this diet, when i had the urge to binge it wasn't actually for sweet food. I did eat sweet food and a lot of it too but it was fairly easy to get past it and back to what i eat regularly. I Just binged for a day and it was over.

If you've got kids around and a partner with a sweet tooth, its going to be more challenging because you will be constantly faced with temptation. That why its better for the whole family to switch to healthy eating and keeping treats out of the house. Quit the chips, the deep fried fast foods, pizzas, cakes and doughnuts, nut honey bars, just leave it all behind you and you will find that your weight loss is much smoother.

That said, you still need enough calories in your diet. But eat low calorie foods.

 

[ChefChiTown]

Jeanette, and i think this addresses one of the chef's objections too, the problem with the treats is that most people who incorporate them into their diet, eat them every day or often rather than occasionally. Sometimes more than once a day. And then they wonder why they are not losing weight. The thing with treats on a regular basis is that they are high calorie for low satiety. So people are more hungry more often and i would contend that this is what leads people to come unstuck.

I still don't see what your argument is here. Treats are a reward - not the base of a diet. And, if you eat enough treats to where it becomes the base of your diet, they are no longer treats - they are your diet - and, a bad diet at that.

And, it is people who eat treats as a diet that have a weight problem - not people who eat treats as a reward.

If I eat well and stick to a proper diet all week, I don't see what the problem is if I go out on Saturday night and grab a pizza for dinner. In that scenario, the pizza is a treat - a well deserved one. I ate healthy all week long and stuck to consuming fruits, vegetables, whole grain foods that were low in fat, carbs and calories, so having pizza on Saturday night isn't going to unhinge all of the work I did. Not even close. It's a treat - something to look forward to, a way of patting myself on the back - nothing more. So, I don't understand your argument against it.

Without the treats, you lose your taste for them very quickly.

False.

You don't lose your taste for them - you just learn to battle the urges. If I go for a week without drinking a Pepsi, it doesn't mean that I'll never want a Pepsi ever again. It might be easier to fight the urge to have a Pepsi, but I will most certainly still have a taste for one - everybody will.

You don't spend 10 years drinking beer everyday and then magically lose your taste for it after going without it for a week or two. Just like you don't spend 10 years eating pizza, burgers, candies and fastfood everyday and then magically lose your taste for it after going without it for a week or two.

Life doesn't work like that.

Its been two weeks now since i ate anything sweet. And i don't miss them. I've spoken to others who've done this and they say the same thing. I know from past experience it may be two months before i want to eat sweet foods. Also the last time i binged, whilst on this diet, when i had the urge to binge it wasn't actually for sweet food. I did eat sweet food and a lot of it too but it was fairly easy to get past it and back to what i eat regularly. I Just binged for a day and it was over.

Once again, you contradict yourself.

You say that after going without treats for a while (in your case, sweets), that you won't have a taste for them anymore. But, then you immediately follow that up by saying you consumed sweets the last time you binged (which also contradicts your dislike of 'cheat days', but that's another story).

If you lose your taste for treats after you haven't had them for a while, then why would you be wanting sweets when you binged? It's almost as if you...had a...taste...for them. Hmm.

Quit the chips, the deep fried fast foods, pizzas, cakes and doughnuts, nut honey bars, just leave it all behind you and you will find that your weight loss is much smoother.

But, you binged on sweets and said it didn't interfere with your weight loss. So, which is it? It's either ok or it's not.

I don't understand your mentality with most of the things you are saying. You say one thing, then contradict it with the next. Then you try to explain yourself, but contradict another thing you've said in the process.

 

[fortyfour]

Sorry chef, I can't be bothered debating all your points. You keep eating your pizza and keep falling off the wagon. Its no skin off my nose.

I didn't respond to your first long post, although i intended to initially, but its just too overwhelming. I was going to take one point at a time. But frankly, i just feel this is too argumentative and whatever i say, i think you will call it a contradiction. You like to twist words. There's no course of reason in a discussion with someone who likes to do that.

 

[Sunflower2]

You can't really make a long post telling people what is good and bad for them and then when people question it (and rightly so, as many of us disagree with what you've said) refuse to debate with them. It negates the point of writing the post in the first place if you wont engage in reasonable debate.

 

[Lilith1]

I think as a society we are obsessed with dieting which has caused an obsession with food. We analyse and think about food so much that it's our main focus. I never used to have a weight problem before I became addicted to dieting - i never used to stop and think about how much protein, carbs, fat and calorie's I had. The whole thing drives me insane and I wish I could turn back the clock!

I agree with you, we need carbs for energy and low fat products are not satisfying (low fat milk has been bleached!). Anything artificial is bad for the body and same with processed and packaged food (which I use to help lose weight and it does bother me but it works so I do it).

 

[Holly88]

I kinda feel like this thread is a total waste of anyone's time (so who knows why I'm responding, right? ha)...

My reasoning for this point is that this thread (despite subsequent posters' best efforts) isn't either a) helpful advice put forward in a polite and user friendly manner or b) healthy debate. It's just preaching and I've noticed a lot of it lately.

I don't think it's likely to be helpful or encouraging to anyone to have an individual read of their personal list of 'diet beliefs' (particularly when few of them are supported by evidence but that's a whole other kettle of fishies).

I'm not even going to argue whether any of these are valid points. I just want to do some patronising of my own: everyone is different. Don't be so arrogant to presume that what works for you works for everyone. Weight loss/health are extremely complicated: why else would we all be in this predicament if it was as easy as following a bunch of rules set out by someone? There's a billion factors that we cannot account for. Everyone has different lifestyles and different personalities and what might work for you won't work for them. And what might work for you in the beginning, you might not find works forever.

So why make a concrete list of commandments/'beliefs'/whatever you might want to call them ... and expect them to be helpful?

End of rant

 

[fortyfour]

Well holly i think that's a very good post.

I regret posting this thread though I am still happy with this strategy for myself. Though i did replace most of coffee drinking with water instead. And i am grateful for this forum for making me make the change.

I am not sure if i was telling others they should do this. I have responded to jeanette and others before her because it was manageble but i find chef's response overwhelming and i just can't deal with it.

I've seen that sort of response on other forums to other people's threads. I think its a mistaken way to try to argue. Chef is on about me contradicting myself rather than tackling the issues i raise. Its all about semantics. I just don't think its worth the fight. There's just no sense engaging with people who approach debate in that manner. I've seen it often. Its pointless. I don't have the energy. If that makes him feel good, then so be it.

In the end, if you disagree with me, that's fine. I don't mind.