Question on low rep/ high weight

A

amy1985

New member
I've read here a bit about how high rep/ low weight isn't necessary for women as they're not going to bulk up (particularly not in a calorie deficit), so I thought I would give it a go. I'll be doing it on my own, as my trainer at the gym seems to think that I'll bulk up if I go low rep/ high weight, so I wanted to get some advice here so I don't hurt myself. (In the absence of any knowledge/ training on my part, the information here seems more plausible than the idea that I'll bulk up, which is never really presented with any justification or evidence)

My first question is, at what stage do I progress to a higher weight? I'm currently only doing bicep curls and tricep extensions with weights (as I'm following the program I've been given at the gym, and some weights were recently cut out of it), and doing 3x18 of those with 2kg weights. It's a bit of a challenge at the moment, but 3x15 was erring on the easy side. The next step up is 3kg. Should I wait until 3x18 becomes easy, or move to a higher set of weights now?

The second question is, what should be my baseline of repetititons? I know that when you move up weights you should drop your repetitions right back, but to what? The lowest reps I've done on anything (under instruction) has been 12- is that a reasonable number, or should I go lower, build up to 12 (/ 15/ 18) and then as they get easier move up to a higher weight again?

(I suppose I also want to know this about leg weights as well- I used to do leg curls and leg extensions and although they're no longer in my program, I really noticed the benefit of them. I think my replacement is I'm now on the stepper/ climber as part of my cardio)

Thanks in advance :)
 
Amy, 12 reps is in the middle of the "bodybuilding" range and is far from low reps, your trainer seems to have been sucked into the toning myth.

by training with heavy weights at low reps you build strength through improved nerve response where as in the mass building range the strength gains come more from hypertrophy.

do you have someone who can show you good form on the key free weight exercises (squat, deadlift) ? leg curls and leg extensions are a generally poor choice.

the basic guideline is as follows regardless of whether your male or female

1 rep max is the maximum weight you can lift for a singe rep

Max Strength and power with small size gains for an advanced lifter
2-6 reps for 1-6 sets at 85-95% of 1 rep max

Max Strength and power with small size gains for an intermediate lifter
4-8 reps for 2-3 sets at 70-85% of 1 rep max

Max size Gains moderate strength gains
8-15 reps for 1-5 sets at 60-70% of 1 rep max

Muscular Endurance
15+ reps for 2-3 sets at 50-75% of 1 rep max
 
Thanks for the response, Trusylver, that's really helpful. I'll definitely try a higher weight (I guess go up to 3kg, and see how I go, I don't want to hurt myself) with way less repetition (maybe 8? I'm not sure where I fit in the categories below- I want to lose weight and get better definition, and I'd say I'm barely fit).

As to leg/ body weights, I'm not sure what help I can get. I can't predict whether the trainers will be offended that I want to deviate from the program and therefore be less willing to help me, or whether it won't be a problem (and I certainly don't want to upset anyone). I also have the problem that I have weak knees (although they are getting better, I've tried squats with just my body weight before- admittedly months ago when I was probably very unfit- and I found them extraordinarily difficult and a bit painful- crossing over from uncomfortable/ burn to "stop that, you'll hurt yourself"). Additionally my gym doesn't have those big weights like you see on the Olympics (I don't know what they're called, sorry), just various sizes of dumbbells (from 1kg to 25-30kg, I think). Should I be cutting back my cardio (my program is currently 3 min rower warm up, stretches, 15 min cross-trainer/ elliptical for 15 min on medium resistance on a hard hill setting, 10 min on stepper/ climber on easy hill setting, rower to 500m as fast as I can go (this makes me want to vomit- takes me just over 2 min), bicep curls, tricep extensions, crunches with ab cradle 3x18, crunches on ball 3x18, plank position 45 seconds, leg raises 3x15, cooldown rower 3 min, stretches)? I see from things you've posted elsewhere that I should probably switch around and do the cardio after weights. I want to be spending about an hour at a time in the gym, and this program currently takes me about that long. Do you have any suggestions?

Thanks again :)
 
If you have bad knees a good alternative to squats is lunges or step ups which may be a little easier on your knees and an alternative exercise for hamstrings would be goodmornings if you had access to a barbell. Hamstring raises (also known as Nordics) are a great bodyweight hamstring exercise and self assisted ones are ok for a beginner Self-assisted Hamstring Raise (Normal Hamstring raise Barbell Hamstring Raise)

although free weights are normally better you may have access to a hack squat machine which is also ok as an alternative or leg press machine.

if you do reduce your reps and increase weight, you should only be doing the full body lifting 3 days per week with a rest day or cardio only day in between. If you want to lift more often you will need to split lifting into different bodyparts on different days. eg. upper 1 day, lower the next. this also keeps training time down enough to fit into the hour with the cardio.
 
Thanks again :) I think I'll definitely be making moves towards getting more weights into my program (and alternate it rather than do the same thing every time I go, which is what I'm doing at the moment). I know the cardio is burning the calories, but I'm definitely noticing a change in my definition from the weights I've done, and I'm really liking it, and want to see more of it. (Although it's also quite a way off, I don't want to be one of those "skinny fat" people you see who have no definition to speak of and seem as weak as water even if they're able to go at the cardio for ages)

I think I might just suck it up and go and ask for a weights program to work into/ alternate with my current program, specifically ask for low rep/ high weight, and see what they say. The worst they could say is no (and then I'll see what I can figure out, slowly and carefully, on my own/ with advice from here and other online sources).
 
I asked today to be shown around the free weights section, so I have an appointment for tomorrow for that. I might not say anything about low rep/ high weight and just be shown correct procedure and figure out the reps myself. I also tried 3kg weights on a lower rep for my bicep curls and tricep extensions today (had originally planned to do 8, as I said before, but I found that too easy and carried on). Did them before cardio which seemed to be helpful, although my arms were then a bit shaky on the cross trainer (good thing I only use them for support). I suspect working all of my body or major muscle groups would be a good idea. Is there anything specific I should ask them about? (because I suspect if I don't they'll just focus on "the parts of me I've said I want to change"- stomach, thighs, and sort of arms, although I said that before I started reading up on weight training and realising what definition can do for you)
 
If you can get them to show you, try deadlifts and maybe lunges or squats.

I like deadlifts because they're easier on the knees (for me anyway) and they work almost your whole body in one go ;) I'd tell them you're more interested in compound movements then say, bicep curls, which you're already pretty comfortable with.

Sounds like you're making good progress! :D
 
If they are going to write a free weight program for you then asking for an upper/lower split routine or a push/pull split routine would be a good option, also as Jeanette said deadlifts and squats even if you find that they are hard on your knees and don't actually do them you should at least know correct form. The big compound lift for the upper body is bench press and again good form is important.

there is a fair bit of choice available for exercises when working with free weights so it is a matter of finding what works for you when choosing those exercises, different trainers will have their own favourites and may also have non standard variations which can make workouts more interesting.
 
Well, that didn't work out. The guy they put me with was very much of the attitude that girls don't do weights. He showed me a few things, but so quickly I don't remember them all, and really wasn't interested. The only thing I do remember is the technique for squats (although I think from what I've read they're actually half squats- down so my thighs are parallel to the floor, not bum nearly to ground), and I tried some of them (with 3kg in each hand) and was surprised at how well I did (I did 3x12, which was just at the point where I'd really had enough and any more might have been an injury risk).

I suspect I'm going to have to figure this out more on my own (or here).

I also changed my bicep curls and tricep extensions from (two days ago) 3x18 with 2kg to (yesterday) 3x12 with 3kg to (today) 3x8 with 4kg- which was very hard. I don't think I could've done more if I tried, but I didn't hurt myself or anything. I think I've found my level.

Edit to add: on the plus side, I was bitching about this on Facebook and a friend of mine who's a real gym junkie is giving me a bunch of tips (including demonstration videos), particularly on core exercises. I've got so many ideas coming in here.
 
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Amy, one of the best sites to visit is Exercise & Muscle Directory it not only has good form on the videos but also points out exactly what muscles your targeting and provides form/injury warnings for exercises which may be a problem for some people. the site was developed a part of the owners masters thesis on exercise.

good work finding your level on the curls.
 
Yes, you're right, that's excellent. It also has a format for helping you set up your own program, which is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you so much!
 
Possibly a silly question, but is it ok to choose auxiliary lifts in place of a basic lift for a beginner routine? This isn't the only example (squats and lunges seem to be defined as auxiliary too) but I do this exercise for my triceps because the standard tricep extension they taught me at the gym (Dumbbell One Arm Triceps Extension )makes my elbow click uncomfortably (no pain, but definitely a "don't do that" feeling): Dumbbell Kickback

I'm working from this site to make a 2 day upper/ lower split workout. It's incredibly useful (although I think for some of it I might dig around and find other explanations because the terminology isn't 100% clear to me)
 
Squats are generally considered a basic lift, but because there are different variations some variations can be considered auxiliary. Using auxiliary lifts are fine, they are just a little more specific to individual muscles or parts of muscles.

eg the difference between the tricep extension (basic) and the kickback (auxiliary) is that the extension targets all three heads of the tricep (long, lateral and medial) but the the kickback only target 2 of the 3 heads of the tricep (long and lateral)

for your needs the difference is not that important but for a bodybuilder who is trying to make their tricep look a particular way then it is.

the site doesn't go into that much detail about the activation of different heads because it is not something the average gym user needs to know.
 
Almost forgot, if the terminology isn't clear then post it here and I will translate it for you :)
 
If I post a possible workout here, would you mind critiquing it or making suggestions (including "that's really hard to get right, try something else"- I'm very much aware of the risk of hurting myself)? I'm trying to keep most things with dumbbells or with as little equipment as possible as my gym doesn't have too much.
 
OK, here's what I've got (apologies, link heavy post incoming- I hope this isn't breaking forum rules, that's not my intention). I based it on this template and included an exercise for each thing they said, although I'm not sure which of the optional ones I should do or not (I suspect two hamstring exercises would help strengthen my knees? I don't know): 2 Day Split Workout: Upper Body / Lower Body . Also, should I incorporate more ab work, rather than just one or a couple of things (I'm thinking about my current workout, which has a lot of ab work)?

Workout 1- upper body

Chest (General): dumbbell bench press Dumbbell Bench Press

Back (General): cable seated row Cable Seated Row

Chest (Upper) pushups Push-up (optional)

Back (lats) - can't figure that out, is optional anyway

Deltoid (Front) dumbbell shoulder press Dumbbell Shoulder Press (optional)

Deltoid (Side) dumbbell lateral raise Dumbbell Lateral Raise

Triceps tricep kickback: Dumbbell Kickback (has been suggested to me that this is hard to get right and is inefficient and I should replace with cable tricep pulldowns, although this is what I'm already doing)

Biceps bicep curl Dumbbell Curl

Trapezius (Upper) dumbbell shrug Dumbbell Shrug

Workout 2- lower body

Quadriceps dumbbell squat Dumbbell Squat

Hamstrings dumbbell straight leg deadlift Dumbbell Straight Leg Deadlift

Quadriceps lunge Dumbbell Lunge (one of quads is optional)

Hamstrings leg curl on ball Leg Curl (on stability ball) (one of hamstrings is optional)

Calves (General) standing calf raise Dumbbell Standing Calf Raise

Hip Abductors lying hip abduction Dumbbell Lying Hip Abduction (optional)

Hip Adductors side lunge (possibly? Too hard on knees?) Side Lunge Stretch (optional)

Hip Flexors scissor kick Lying Scissor Kick (optional)

Abdominal jack knife sit up Jack-knife Sit-up (also crunches?)

Obliques dumbbell side bend Dumbbell Side Bend (optional)

Are these a good place for a relative beginner to start (keeping in mind I have very limited equipment and weak knees)? Are there any exercises you'd suggest changing or stressing? Is 3 reps of something low-ish (8-12) suitable for all of them, at least to start with? (plan to start with low/ no weights until I get the hang of things, and then build up slowly)
 
My personal opinion on ab work is that mostly you want the stability, but that sit-ups are kind of pointless.

That looks like a lot of work, so I think some of whether your split it up into two days depends on what makes you happiest :)

Have you seen the stickies from Steve about setting up a basic push/pull split? I do a full body routine, and here's what I do:

Squats OR Parallel Grip Deadlift OR Leg Press machine
Push-ups or DB Bench (I don't do any shoulder presses because I have issues with my shoulder)
Lat Pulldown (it's one of the cable machines) OR assisted Pull-up OR rows
Planks
Back Extensions (there's a sort of a machine for these) if I didn't do deadlifts.

Then optional for tricep extensions, bicep curls, leg extensions etc.

I think 3 sets of 8-12, increasing weight when you can do 12 reps is a good way to go.

I don't know if this helps or not :)
 
I jumped on the template because I read some of the stuff Steve had written (as well as other things that I googled which were meant to be for beginners) and either it sailed over my head (mostly in the case of the latter, I wondered if they were speaking English) or I couldn't figure out how to apply it to what I'm trying to do (I'm not entirely sure what that is. I started off wanting to lose weight, I'm starting to see the beginnings of definition and I like it, the idea of muscle loss scares me a bit, and the idea of having some definition and being "sculpted"- though not bulky- is starting to appeal to me). I think what I want to do is exercise all the major muscle groups?

Anything helps, I feel pretty much completely at sea here (not as much as I did when I posted this thread- except for the fact I can't really get help at my gym). It especially helps to be told that this looks like a lot of work, that's important to know. At the moment I'm only doing cardio (15 min cross trainer on a hard hill setting at a medium resistance, 10 min stepper/ climber machine, and going as fast as I can for 500m on the rowing machine), arm weights (3x8 bicep curls and tricep kickbacks with 4kg), and ab work (3x18 crunches, 3x18 crunches with exercise ball, 3x15 leg raises, and 50 second plank), as this is what the people in the gym recommended for me (because I told them right at the start I wanted to work on my thighs- I think that's in my cardio now- stomach and arms, in that order). I tried some half squats (weak knees, don't want to push them) with 3kg dumbbells last time in the gym, but apart from that this is all I've done in terms of weights so far (and so this increase hasn't had any role in my weakness in the gym, at this stage it's almost entirely theoretical).

My gym has virtually no machines for weights (it's very, very small), hence the focussing on dumbbells and such- I worked with what I know the gym has.

I feel like a complete idiot with this stuff, it's just a whole new world to me. Should I go back to the template page and try to make myself a whole body workout? (I'm determined to figure some of this stuff out, somehow)
 
The assistance at my gym was so bad I basically passed up my second free training session. :/

Is the template page the link you got your workout from? I don't think there's anything wrong with doing an upper/lower split like you're doing (I just don't because I have recovery issues as it is, so only do 2-3 days a week so it doesn't work for me).

The general premise of Steve's page is that you should basically do a push and a pull for most of your body. So for example a push-up or dumbbell bench press is a push for your chest, and a cable row is a pull. Squat is a push, deadlift is a pull.

There's a claim that doing a full squat (to slightly below parallel) is actually easier on your knees than stopping just above parallel. Someone even showed me a diagram of all the stressors and forces and stuff to show why this was the case but I didn't really get it ;) All I know is that I either squat way high, or way low :p

However... for just a beginner setup, you could consider the stronglifts 5x5 program. ... I think that's even the name of the workout. It's a full body workout, and it's called 5x5 because you basically do 5 sets of 5 for all the exercises. I know several people here have used it and really liked it.

If it helps I can break down my workout a little more into what's covered... here's how I kind of think about it.

Major Compound - that's the squats or deadlift (DL) or leg press. This hits just about all of your leg, although different areas more or less depending on how you do it. So if you do squats it hits more of your thighs, deadlifts hit more of your glutes and hamstrings. But all of them get used, just not to the same degree. You also get core stabilization. The DLs also work your arms and hands (I have craptastic grip strength!)

Chest work - that's your DB press or push-up, possibly OH press ... overhead press that is :) Works your chest, but also some of your triceps.

Upper Back work - this can be the lat pulldowns (If they have a cable machine there, there's one with a wide bar people sit down at and pull the bar from above their head to their chin or something?) or pull-ups or rows. Again, these all have slightly different focuses, but they'll work the back muscles + biceps.

Core work - this is mostly about having a stable core, the idea behind Pilates etc. In the real world you rarely have to lift something by bending at your spine. But a lot of time you have to hold yourself straight. Which is why Pilates like movements are popular and probably a lot better for you than crunches. (Plus I hate crunches ;))

Lower back work - I like to do the back extensions. Basically you're just holding yourself up when at an angle. Helps to protect against back injuries. I don't usually do it if I've also been DLing though, it's kind of extra.

Then there's all the rest of the targeted work. Which I consider kind of optional. So your bicep curls, your hamstring specific work, your glute work etc. From a functional perspective - i.e. being strong in your day to day life, the first 3-4 should be plenty. But if you really enjoy doing some of the kettle ball work, or the other lifts - go ahead and do them!

... This MAY have been slightly less confusing? :D
 
Upper body

DB bench is good as are the seated rows but changing your pushups to close grip will change the exercise into a tricep exercise which also works chest and front delts.

Back (lats) - this muscle is already worked in you seated rows but lat pull downs or pullups are a good option if you have time.

you don't need the shoulder press the anterior (front) delt gets plenty of work in the bench press and the pushups but the lateral raises are fine.

the kickback could be dropped if you move to the close grip pushups, bicep curls are fine. You will soon find that if you are using DBs for the shrugs that your grip on the weights will give out before the traps, good exercise but I would consider it optional as the muscle is already worked in the seated rows.

Lower body

Squats are an essential be be careful with the form to look after your knees, although the straight leg deadlift is a good hamstring exercise it can be bad for your back if your form is a little bit out. most gyms even small ones have a cable machine so Cable Lying Leg Curl may be an option. If you work hard enough on the squats you shouldn't need the lunges. doing the ball curls will really come down to how much time you have for your workout, calf raises are a good exercise, the abduction exercise is good but for adductors if you do your squats with a wide stance (sumo) then the side lunges could be dropped. I would drop the scissor kick if time is limited. instead of the situps and side bends I would use planks and side planks.

8-12 reps is good while you get used to the exercises.
 
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