powerlifts? OL lifts?

[R.Lewis]

Actually Now that Mreik and EVO are here I have a queston.

When I do high pulls, cleans and any sort of upward motion above chest level I always plantar flex. I think this is the right way to do the exercises but it just makes it easyer to lift, should I stop to make my shoulders and traps do all the work?


Evo - maybe Im being stupid, but how do high pulls involve the Lats? as far as I knew that lats only adducted the arms, and are weak in transverse extension.

 

[evolution]

Actually Now that Mreik and EVO are here I have a queston.

When I do high pulls, cleans and any sort of upward motion above chest level I always plantar flex. I think this is the right way to do the exercises but it just makes it easyer to lift, should I stop to make my shoulders and traps do all the work?


Evo - maybe Im being stupid, but how do high pulls involve the Lats? as far as I knew that lats only adducted the arms, and are weak in transverse extension.

With the high pulls, you're doing the right thing...you really want to concentrate on exploding up and that means coming up onto the toes. However, since there's a lot of leg drive involved in the pulls and Oly lifts, you're still getting a lot of lower back, glute, and ham recruitment.

Here's a statement about high pulls from Dragondoor.com
"High Pulls: After hitting the predetermined reps and poundage on the power clean, keep the train rolling by adding poundage to the bar and continuing with high pulls. A high pull is a power clean not pulled high enough to wrist-snap and rack. Otherwise it’s identical to a power clean. Try and pull the barbell to belly button height on each rep. Use the same slow takeoff and accelerate the bar as it rises. Add poundage on successive hi-pull sets. High pulls hit the erectors, rhomboids, teres and both upper and lower lats. Try and go up on your toes and shrug your shoulders at the top. The poundage should be too heavy to ‘arm pull’ so don’t try: the arms should be thought of as hooks that hold the poundage. If you try and pull with the arms you run the risk of ripping a bicep."

Here's kinda an explanation of movement associated with the lats. http://www.exrx.net/Muscles/LatissimusDorsi.html
http://www.protraineronline.com/past/may1_02/optimizing.cfm

Hope this helps, Kent

 

[Karky]

Jerk from rack.. i know how to jerk.. but how do i do it from the rack? :S
and about all squats and such in the program, both back and front, do i focus on high speed or doing them heavy.
Front Squat 80% 3r, 90% 2r, 85% 2r, 80% 3r x 3s
as you see.. 90% of 1rm so im guessing 1rm of the heavy sort so it will be heavy slow stuff

and about the oly lifts, the speed of them. i should use a light enough weight so i can preform them fast right? so when finding my 1rm.. how do i know what is to slow and what is too fast? it might be an impossible question.. i dunno, but im a complete newbie with this so bear with me guys

 

[evolution]

When I did them I just worked from the rack and after lockout let the bar hit the pins and immediately set myself up for another one until the number of reps were completed.

Keep in mind that there's a difference between lifting a moderate amount of weight slow and lifting a heavy weight that seems slow because it's heavy. Think of the oly lifters or powerlifters or even strongmen that grind out those 1RMs...they're not lifting slow but they're lifting maximally.

Oly lifts are easy to find your 1RM, you either get the bar to your shoulders or over your head or you don't. 5 pounds can be a world of difference also. You can't do Oly lifts slow and you can't do them to fast. Your goal is to get the bar from the floor (or hang position or whatever is called for) as fast as possible.

Good luck.

 

[R.Lewis]

Cheers Evo.

One more thing. I find that when I get down to my 1-3rep max for high pulls I cant help but lift my right shoulder.

I dont know im doinging it, other people notice and I see it in the mirror, but I can only stop when I lower the weight. Any tips?

 

[evolution]

Cheers Evo.

One more thing. I find that when I get down to my 1-3rep max for high pulls I cant help but lift my right shoulder.

I dont know im doinging it, other people notice and I see it in the mirror, but I can only stop when I lower the weight. Any tips?

On this, I really don't have any tips. I'd really have to see your technique to make any calls. Are you sure it's not that you're shrugging as compared to purposely lifting the shoulder? More than anything it sounds like either a technique issue or you're trying to force the weight up rather than being explosive. It's a tough call without seeing you do the motion.

As a side note, what was described (I just actually noticed) from dragondoor.com was more of a low pull than a high pull. Anyway...if you can at all, I'd really suggest spending at least one session with either a qualified strength coach, a ranked weight lifting (Oly lifting) instructor, or a knowledgable Oly lifting individual...they can be a very valuable asset. I have an individual, a coach (Dr. Mike) that I see 3-5 times a year just to re-evaluate my form and what not.

 

[Karky]

When I did them I just worked from the rack and after lockout let the bar hit the pins and immediately set myself up for another one until the number of reps were completed.

Keep in mind that there's a difference between lifting a moderate amount of weight slow and lifting a heavy weight that seems slow because it's heavy. Think of the oly lifters or powerlifters or even strongmen that grind out those 1RMs...they're not lifting slow but they're lifting maximally.

Oly lifts are easy to find your 1RM, you either get the bar to your shoulders or over your head or you don't. 5 pounds can be a world of difference also. You can't do Oly lifts slow and you can't do them to fast. Your goal is to get the bar from the floor (or hang position or whatever is called for) as fast as possible.

Good luck.

okay, so if i can get the bar over my head (power snatch) the squating movement will be fast, since its easier to squat it than getting it over my head?
i might hit the gym today just to practice some of the lifts. how long would you advise to spend just with low weights to learn the lifts properly?

 

[evolution]

okay, so if i can get the bar over my head (power snatch) the squating movement will be fast, since its easier to squat it than getting it over my head?
i might hit the gym today just to practice some of the lifts. how long would you advise to spend just with low weights to learn the lifts properly?

Well, the OH (overhead) squat is quite a different animal than what most are used to. I'd never say the OH squat is easy at all. If the directions are to snatch then it's a snatch directly into an overhead squat. In fact, it's one fluid movement where you catch the bar kinda low and back up. This is different than the power snatch where you just catch the bar in a quarter squat.

I'd say start with the bar and get your form down. Add 20 pounds or so every 3 reps. So, do 3 reps, add 20. Do 3 reps, add 20. Most will say the snatch is harder than the clean but I've always found it the other way around for me. Remember, you can always practice with a broom handle at home. Have fun and let me know how it goes.

 

[Benny]

I never tried these oly lifting movements and i have heard these are quite technical in their execution

so my question is did you guys learn these movements on your own or did you take assistance from a trainer as regards to form

also would it be better to go look for a person experienced in such lifts like an Oly lifter himself

where should i look for such assistance???

 

[Karky]

Well, the OH (overhead) squat is quite a different animal than what most are used to. I'd never say the OH squat is easy at all. If the directions are to snatch then it's a snatch directly into an overhead squat. In fact, it's one fluid movement where you catch the bar kinda low and back up. This is different than the power snatch where you just catch the bar in a quarter squat.

I'd say start with the bar and get your form down. Add 20 pounds or so every 3 reps. So, do 3 reps, add 20. Do 3 reps, add 20. Most will say the snatch is harder than the clean but I've always found it the other way around for me. Remember, you can always practice with a broom handle at home. Have fun and let me know how it goes.

i tried some of the lifts at the gym yesterday.. was hard! i used no weight and i feel it in my shoulders and the neck muscle, trapz upper fibers i belive

so with the power snatch i just go into a quarter squat position? and snatch is squatting all the way down with the bar over your head? i got the impression it was the other way around.. that with power snatch you go down into full squat.. and that with regular Snatch, you just get the bar over your head.

like its described there

and another question:
Most of the lifts are based on the powerful extention of the legs and back and then a shrug of the shoulders, right? so you kind of just jump up and shrug your shoulders?
is the shrug of the shoulders uppose to be after the extention of the legs or at the same time? also, should i only use the shrug to throw the weight up to my shoulders or overhead, or should i help with the arm muscles like the biceps?

and as for weight on the clean and jerk. do i use whatever is the lowest? cuz if i can clean 40kg, but i can only jerk 30 kg.. then i cant do clean jerks with 40 kg can i?

 

[evolution]

I never tried these oly lifting movements and i have heard these are quite technical in their execution

so my question is did you guys learn these movements on your own or did you take assistance from a trainer as regards to form

also would it be better to go look for a person experienced in such lifts like an Oly lifter himself

where should i look for such assistance???

Go to and look for a CSCS in your area. If you want to learn the lifts, they'd be a good source to go to. If you're in school, you should have an athletic director or strength coach you can seek out. You might also call the kinesiology dept at your local university.

I learned them at first on my own and then got better with my technique from others who do teh lifts. I eventually found a nationally ranked coach that I work with several times a year for reinforcement and support.

 

[evolution]

i tried some of the lifts at the gym yesterday.. was hard! i used no weight and i feel it in my shoulders and the neck muscle, trapz upper fibers i belive

so with the power snatch i just go into a quarter squat position? and snatch is squatting all the way down with the bar over your head? i got the impression it was the other way around.. that with power snatch you go down into full squat.. and that with regular Snatch, you just get the bar over your head.

like its described there

Power snatch and hang snatch are done with a quarter squat. Full snatch (or just plain snatch) is done with an OH squat. Look for videos or pictures of Olympic lifters and what they do is teh snatch. That link (and it's a good one) has the same end result with a bottom position squat. Whether you do a power version or full version isn't overly important for the general trainee.

 

[Karky]

ok, i just had to clarify since my routine has Snatch and power snatch in it.. so i guess that snatch works the legs a bit more with the squat
i have one more questione (sorry for asking so much)
Clean & Jerk 80%[2+1], 90%[1+1], 85%[1+2], 80%[1+1]
clean and jerk.. i get that its some reps of just clean and some reps of clean and then jerk.. but i dont quite get whats in the [ ] :S
[2+1] is that two reps of normal clean then one rep of clean and jerk, leaving it at 3 reps total.
OR is it 1 rep of regular clean then one rep of clean and jerk? :S
"Clean & Jerk 80% (2+1)r, means two repetitions of clean and one repetition of jerk, e.g. one Clean followed by a Clean and Jerk."
thats how it is explained in the program, but how then the [1+2]?:S a one clean then two reps of clean AND jerk.. or one clean then from there do 2 jerks? :S

 

[evolution]

I know it looks confusing. The first number in the [] is the number of cleans you will do. The second number is the number of clean+jerk you will do. So, if it's [2+1], then it's 2 cleans+clean and jerk.

If it's [1+2] then it's 1 clean+2 clean and jerks.

 

[Karky]

ahh ok, thanks for clearing that up evo! ill be hitting the gym today to practice some more with just the bar aslong as i dont hit my lip again doing the clean pull i guess ill add some weight on that so i dont pull it into my own head

"Percentages
The intensities shown in the program refer to the percentage of the PERSONAL BEST or MAXIMUM POSSIBILITY for EACH EXERCISE, excepting Pulls and Rumanian Pulls. The maximum possibility is the heaviest weight the lifter could successfully achieve on the particular training day. For instance, if a lifter has a personal best snatch of 100 kg, but is only capable of lifting 95 kg during a particular period, due to an absence from training, then for that period the lifter has a maximum possibility o f 95 kg for the snatch. The maximum weight for Snatch Pulls and Clean Pulls is considered to be 110% of Snatch and Clean respectively. The percentages for Rumanian Pulls are calculated from the best Clean."

so that basicly means i dont have to find my max the regular way for clean pulls, snatch pulls and rumanian pulls? just do 110 of the snatch and clean max.. but it doesnt say how much of the clean im suppose to do with rumanian pulls? is that 110 percent too? :S

and it doesnt say anything about adding weight on that program.. should i add weight as i feel it or should i just drive through the entire program without upping the weights on the exersices?

Link to program again:

 

[evolution]

Be careful with the jerks...keep your chin back...that's all I'm saying about that from pesonal experience.

I'll put it like this; I'm not an competitive Oly lifter and never will be. So, I just figured out what my 1RM was and worked my percentages like that for each work out. If I hit where it stated to do 100% and it felt easier than normal, then I'd shoot for upping the weight by 5-10 pds and go for a new 1RM. Then I'd keep that number if it increased. But I never worried about the 110% because I fell a bit short on a lift.

The other thing I did with this program was I upped the reps on the GMs (good mornings) and RDLs. I didn't really worry about max numbers on the GMs or RDLs and just went heavy for what would be heavy in an 8-12 rep range. One last thing I did (or rather didn't do) is I didn't do a lot of the extra clean pulls or snatch balances.

Of course, don't take it as I'm encouraging you not to do the full program; I"m just showing you how I tweaked things to work better for me. I think the program is a fantastic program for drilling in the Oly lifts.

 

[Karky]

okay, thanks for the reply. i will be doing the program exactly as it says.. as i dont feel im experienced enough to start tweaking things.. when i do that, i usually just ruin things
so when i feel like i can, i just up the weight?

 

[evolution]

so when i feel like i can, i just up the weight?

Yup. I'd wait till it's time to shoot for 100% and if it feels easier than normal, up the weight by 5 pounds and see what happens. If you get that, shoot for another 5 pounds. Keep in mind that if you're working in the 85%+ on a routine basis, your 1RM will increase.

Good luck, bro.

 

[Karky]

okay, so i should just keep the weight the same until i get to the place in the program where its time to do 1 rep of 100%.. and if that feels too easy, ill up the weight next time? thanks for that! But what if i feel it becomes easy before i hit the 100% i mean.. the first 100% lift is in week 7 i think.. i could be progressing before that.

i cant wait by starting this but im gonna use like 2 weeks to practice getting the technique right

and as for the warmups:
"The program shows training beginning at 80% intensity. Obviously a specific warm-up for each exercise is necessary. The following warm-up must take place before attempting weights of 80% intensity: 50% 5r, 60% 3r, 70% 3r"

but if you have warmed up for snatch, havent you then warmed up all the muscles needed for the other exercises aswell? just wondering if its nessecary to warm up before each exercise when they are so alike.

 

[evolution]

nah, after you're warmed up for your first movement, you're good to go. Take next week and find your max on the lifts you need and work from there. Don't sweat on increasing your Oly lifts super fast inj the beginning and really focus on technique.