Organic food not quite healthier according to study.

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I was going to post the contents of this but it is too much. Read closely the loopholes in labeling.





(took them long enough to close this loophole)


I want to make it clear I'm not opposed to eating more whole foods or less processed. I'm opposed to seeing people believing the labels and hype of ad agencies. They believe the face value and what they are told to believe instead of digging deeper. THAT is what I mean by people who treat this as a religion.
 
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Jericho said:
The problem is, you aren't really giving a message. It would be different if the organic industry were a bunch of small alternative farmers but a vast majority of the industry are the same big dogs that sells the other stuff.
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That's such an unfair statement.

Of course the corporate orgainc world is larger, its corporate!

And maybe they are not usda certified organic (becasue they may not be able to afford the testing) but there are literally hundreds of companies that make natural organic food (book definition oraginc).

You just have to leave the walmarts and similar type places to find them.
 
But how sure are you?

Organic certification - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I know this is a wikipedia but it does give some information. If you know of a farm that you get your milk directly from, great. Same with a farm but how deep do you investigate where you get your food..or are you content to just hearing them claim it is organic.


Hell, the use of the word natural is what many companies use to get around the rules of the word organic because Natural isn't regulated. However, in 2005 the Food Safety and Inspection Service, a regulatory arm of the USDA, began rewriting the rules on a case-by-case basis, allowing sugar, sodium lacate (a derivative of corn syrup, which is made from the partial hydrolysis of corn starch) and “natural flavorings” from oleoresins (a mixture of resins and extracts) to be included in products such as prepackaged lunchmeats labeled as “natural.”
 
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Jericho said:
The way the laws and regulations are written gives the companies plenty of wiggle room when they label things organic (as previously mentioned).
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Think about this...

Legally, food products are allowed to contain certain percentages of rat hair, chemicals, animal shit, viruses, bacteria (etc) without companies having to label their products as containing such things. So, according to people who think that labels are some sort of ultimate tell all about a product, then they aren't consuming those things at all. But, in all reality, each and every one of us is eating dirty ass shit (literally) almost every time we take a bite of food.

So, if a food is labeled as organic, we (as people) would be stupid to believe that there is NOTHING ELSE in that food.

Also, regulations may seem loose, but they're actually a lot tighter than some of us may care to believe.
 
ChefChiTown said:
Think about this...

Legally, food products are allowed to contain certain percentages of rat hair, chemicals, animal shit, viruses, bacteria (etc) without companies having to label their products as containing such things. So, according to people who think that labels are some sort of ultimate tell all about a product, then they aren't consuming those things at all. But, in all reality, each and every one of us is eating dirty ass shit (literally) almost every time we take a bite of food.

So, if a food is labeled as organic, we (as people) would be stupid to believe that there is NOTHING ELSE in that food.

Also, regulations may seem loose, but they're actually a lot tighter than some of us may care to believe.
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I agree, the regulations of the United State food industry is tighter than most contries, but you hit the nail on the head about people not believing there isn't more in their food. People, as a whole, are sheep. A person can be intelligent, wise, and informed.

Both sides have thrown facts and opinions at each other with the strict belief that their way is the right way. Hell I am guilty of that. When you step back, you see it is a bit of A and a bit of B.

and ultimately your own personal choice.
 
I am certainly aware that the labelling of organic doesn't mean what a lot of people want it to, or think it does. My point about the message was that it tells the corporations that they can make money off of people who want to eat healthier.

There's no question that going to your local growers is still better than going to a megacorp and buying their 'organic' - however, the message I'm talking about is more of a process - and also somewhat (perhaps optimistically) preventative. If people are willing to pay more for stuff without HFCF or that's organic or... whatever it is, then its a sign to the corps that there are money making options that don't involve them going with the cheapest possible, most processed, whatever it is alternative and leaving us without even the not so great may be organic or not options.

It's a process, and as more people become aware of false labelling they'll make a case for stricter control on labels - or they won't, depending on the message they send by voting with their wallets.

Personally, I look for local, unprocessed (and yes, sometimes even the magical grass-fed), over Organic. But if it weren't for all the people buying the Organic label, would there even be real stores where I could find some of these things?

To me it's kind of like buying a hybrid. You probably aren't going to save money when you factor in the extra amount you pay for the vehicle. You may not even be better for the environment with the early versions just due to the batteries and the chemicals used in making them - but I'm glad that some people bought them so that the technology can be improved upon to the point where it might someday save me money or benefit the environment. Better or not - I'm glad someone who's not me is spending the money in hopes it might improve in the future ;)
 
Just thought I would chime in a bit here as my first post considering that this topic is a very important to me. Jericho (and others) make an excellent point with labeling. I eat only organic and I only consume ethical meat. However, I am informed consumer and I am a huge believer that the consumer has the ultimate power. If we as consumers demand certain things and boycott certain things, evetually we will be heard. It has saddened me that the true meaning of organic has gone out the window. I like to think of organic as more of a movement and a way of living rather than a label. I do not shop at my big box grocery store and buy organic tomatoes from New Zealand. I do not go to Whole Foods and buy organic chicken from them when I have no clue where it comes from. I buy my pastured chicken and grass fed beef from a farm that is about an hour from my house! I have been to that farm, seen their operations, seen how they butcher their animals, and I even chat with them on the phone. Same goes for my organic eggs, and organic produce (Houston has vast amounts of farmer's markets) If I do buy organic items from say Whole Foods then I make damn sure they are from local farms and not huge conglomerates.

labels period are gimmicks! Even labels that say organic, and by that I mean you might be misled in thinking that since you are buying organic you are buying from old grandma's farm when like mentioned before you are buying from a huge cooperation who is running a conventional farm not but just a few feet away fom your organic farm. I clarify that because the organic guidelines are quite strict of what can be used and what can't be. However, lobbyist have been successful in getting things added in which totally ruins the organic name, but can still be called organic (organic frozen entrees for example) so it all comes down to being an informed consumer. Labels piss me off to no end and it really irks me that our government (the USDA and FDA that some of you mentioned before in a way that they actually care about us i.e. approving certaing things) allows companies to blatantly lie on labels and purposely fool consumers. Things like "lite" "95% fat free" and "reduced fat" or "all natural"

Just to hit on a few points that organic is much different than just eating and labels.

We all know and it is proven that synthetic fertilizers pollute our water supply and pose quite a few dangers. Just read the back label of of some lawn fertilizers. It is also proven that synthetic fertlizers breakdown microorganisms and prevent symbiosis and this actually damages the soil.

Corn is a commodity and it is actually traded on the market! We have a huge surplus corn! So much that we are refining the crap out of it and making all sorts of stuff out of corn because we just have so much of it. Hell they are even making 100% corn kittly litter. So why on earth are we gentically modifying corn to produce more and more corn??? What is even more amusing is the farm bills. Here we are having a surplus of corn (basic economics is when there is a surplus the demand goes down and so does prices) and the government is paying farmer's the difference between the market price and the set price! Guess who is paying for farmers to produce more corn when we already have too much? We are! Going into a point below, we have sooooo much corn that we started to feed it to animals that should not eat it.

Ruminants (cows, bison, goats, etc) without getting too technical basically can't digest corn. So in order to keep them from dying and not being able to sell them to Burger King they pump them continously on antibiotics. Oh and also grain fed cattle is the cause of E-Coli in beef! Which brings a good point up. All these antibiotics in pork, chicken, and beef and we wonder why we have more and more antibiotic resistant "superbugs" that are killing folks!

Just one last point because someone mentioned below about the USDA and FDA approving what can be in food. rBGH is a growth hormone that is injected into dairy cows to produce anywhere from 25% more milk (we had an adundance of that as well but kept wanting more). The company that makes this hormone makes up the majority of your FDA! Now that does not settle right with me. How can I trust the FDA when they are on the payroll of this hormone manufacturer? Did you know that some time ago independent small dairy farmers were labeling their milk with "Cows are not treated with rBGH" well the FDA came down hard on them and threated to remove all their milk from grocery store shelves! A few court dates later now companies are allowed to label their milk rBGH free however they MUST include a little disclaimer along with it.

Okay I will make one more =) currently (and it is hugely debated) the US government does not require that genetically modified foods be labeled as such. So eating non organic most likely means you are eating engineered meat! Don't you think we should at least get to make our own choice whether or not we want to eat that? I don't care if you eat engineered meat, but I personally would like to see it on a label so I can continue to be an informed consumer and make my own damn choice.

So what organic means to me is a better economy, cleaner environment, better farming, and better health. Organic to me is the natural order of things without uneccesary interference.
 
If we would end the dang corn subsidies then the incentive to feed every animal corn would go away and grass fed beef would become cheaper because it would be mass produced instead of corn fed beef. And the problems with W. Coli and ammonia baths just to make the meat safe would go away.
 
Organic never really claimed to have some magical properties. It just uses less chemicals and it doesn’t harm the environment. For the haters of organic food, nobody is forcing you to buy it anyway!
 
The way I look at the great health debates is this; you are not going to live forever, regardless of eating organic. Your age, body condition, diseases you obtain is large based on genetics. I don't think there is a way to prevent the things that happen to our body. All we can do is eat healthy, exercise and live a good life-style and hope for the best as we age.
 
Organic food may not be more nutritious than conventional food. The definitive study has not been done, mainly because of the multitude of variables involved in making a fair comparison between organically grown and conventionally grown food. These include crop variety, time after harvest, post-harvest handling, and even soil type and climate, which can have significant effects on nutritional quality. However, organic food is far less likely to contain pesticide residues than conventional food.
 
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I didn't read the full 4 pages, but interestingly enough last week I read an article on MSNBC website about a study done from 1950 to 1999 on the nutritional value of produce, how synthetic fertilizers and wanting to grow bigger food faster has caused the nutritional value to drastically decrease, and how that isn't the case with organic produce. I'm new so I can't post the link, but it's on MSNBC website if you want to check it out.

My opinion is - organic is better, but local produce that you prepare entirely yourself or food you grow in your own garden is what we should all be eating. Not food that is premade/prepackaged, genetically modified or pesticide ridden, it's destroying our health(in more ways than just consuming it) and the earth.
 
Jericho said:
Pretty much knew this myself. Organic is really just a buzz word so they can charge you more money. It fits right up there with antioxidant
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What a stupidly closed minded statement.

Had you read the article to the bottom you would have read this "Organic foods are made without the use of conventional pesticides, synthetic fertilizers, antibiotics or hormones — which could potentially reap benefits for people's health and the environment.
The current review, Dangour and his colleagues point out, did not look for studies on the possible health benefits of reduced exposure to those substances. Nor did it address the environmental impact of organic food production." - they put that at the end because they know most people will not bother reading that far.

I buy organic when possible and your statement that "organic is just a buzzword" so they can charge more money is patronising to say the least. If you bothered to familiarise yourself with the workings of organic farms rather than reading articles on msn you would know that there is a great deal of difference between organically produced food and foods produced using toxic chemicals, massive doses of hormones and every other genetic trick in the book to bulk up and cheaply produce food for the masses. I dont need to read online articles, I simply look at the end result. The food looks different... organic food looks real, real food is not perfect.

Where I live I can go to my local supermarket and buy organically produced meat from a local farm which is named alongside the meat. These hard working farmers put effort in to producing clean and healthy food. They take pride in what they do and they sell their produce at a reasonable price considering the effort that goes in to producing it. The meat even tastes differently.

I dont need an online study to tell me that pure water is better than drinking water someone has pissed in... yeah sure it wont kill me but I dont want it in my body if I can help it.
 
The thread rises from the dead...ohhhhhohhhhhh


You are more than welcome to spend extra money for that 'organic' milk or 'organic' food. It's your right.
 
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ForRealThisTime said:
I buy organic when possible and your statement that "organic is just a buzzword" so they can charge more money is patronising to say the least. If you bothered to familiarise yourself with the workings of organic farms rather than reading articles on msn you would know that there is a great deal of difference between organically produced food and foods produced using toxic chemicals, massive doses of hormones and every other genetic trick in the book to bulk up and cheaply produce food for the masses. I dont need to read online articles, I simply look at the end result. The food looks different... organic food looks real, real food is not perfect.
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As someone who has thoroughly studied the organic movement in culinary school, worked with growers of organic foods from all around the country and has had thousands upon thousands of hours of hands on experience in working with a multitude of organic foods in fine dining restaurants in Chicago, I can say this...not all food that is labeled as 'organic' is really 'organic'.

Allow me to explain (from a professional stand point)...

5. How are organic foods labeled?

There are four categories of labeling.

A. Foods labeled "100 percent organic" must contain only organically produced ingredients (excluding water and salt).
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"Nutrition for Foodservice and Culinary Professionals" (sixth edition); Drummond, Karen Eich and Brefere, Lisa M.; 2007
Pg. 32

This means that food which is labeled as "100 percent organic" is entirely made up of nothing but organic products. Every single molecule of food that is labeled as "100 percent organic" is organically produced.

For example, "100 percent organic" chocolate milk contains organic milk and organic chocolate.

SIDE NOTE: If milk is organic, it means that the animal that produced it is hormone and chemical free.

B. Food labeled "organic" must consist of at least 95 percent organically produced ingredients (excluding water and salt). Any remaining ingredients must consist of nonagricultural products approved on the national list or agricultural products that are not commercially available in organic form.
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"Nutrition for Foodservice and Culinary Professionals" (sixth edition); Drummond, Karen Eich and Brefere, Lisa M.; 2007
Pg. 32-33

This means that food which is labeled as "organic" doesn't have to contain only organically produced ingredients. As long as the food contains between 95 and 99% organically produced ingredients, it can be labeled as organic. But, once again, it does not have to be made entirely of organic ingredients and organic ingredients only.

For example, "organic" chocolate milk might contain organic milk and organic chocolate, but some of the ingredients used in the chocolate portion of the milk (such as vanilla or nutmeg) may not be organic.

C. Processed foods labeled "made with organic ingredients" must contain at least 70 percent organic ingredients, and they can list up to three of the organic ingredients or food groups on the principal display panel. For example, soup made with at least 70 percent organic ingredients and only organic vegetables may be labeled either "soup made with organic peas, potatoes, and carrots" or "soup made with organic vegetables".
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"Nutrition for Foodservice and Culinary Professionals" (sixth edition); Drummond, Karen Eich and Brefere, Lisa M.; 2007
Pg. 33

This means that food which is labeled as "made with organic ingredients" contains between 70 and 94 percent organic ingredients.

For example, chocolate milk that is "made with organic ingredients" might contain a combination of any of the following (depending on the ratio of ingredients that is used by the respective producer of the chocolate milk itself):

Organic milk, organic chocolate, non-organic spices
Organic milk, non-organic chocolate, non-organic spices
Organic chocolate, non-organic milk, non-organic spices
Water (used as filler), organic milk, non-organic chocolate, non-organic spices
Water (used as filler), organic chocolate, non-organic milk, non-organic spices
Etc.

Also, to explain the soup example in a slightly more understandable way - soup that is labeled as "made with organic ingredients" might contain organically produced vegetables, but nothing more. The stock used in the soup may not be organic, the herbs and spices used in the soup may not be organic and there can also be chemical additives mixed in with the soup to enhance it's flavor which, of course, are not organic.

D. Processed foods that contain less than 70 percent organic ingredients cannot use the term organic anywhere on the principal display panel. However, they may identify the specific ingredients that are organically produced on the ingredients statement.
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"Nutrition for Foodservice and Culinary Professionals" (sixth edition); Drummond, Karen Eich and Brefere, Lisa M.; 2007
Pg. 33

This means that food which contains less than 70 percent organic ingredients cannot have the word "organic" anywhere on the main focal points of it's package. It can, however, be used in the ingredients listing.

For example, chocolate milk that contains less than 70 percent organically produced ingredients can't use the word or label "organic" anywhere on the front label, back label or cap. If it happens to contain organic nutmeg, for example, it may list "organic nutmeg" on the ingredient list and the ingredient list alone.

Foods that are 100 or 95 percent organic may display the USDA ORGANIC seal. Use of the seal if voluntary.
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"Nutrition for Foodservice and Culinary Professionals" (sixth edition); Drummond, Karen Eich and Brefere, Lisa M.; 2007
Pg. 33

The USDA doesn't mandate that foods which are made of 95-100 percent organically produced ingredients contain the official USDA ORGANIC seal. Food producers use this label upon their own discretion (as long as their food meets the USDA's standards).

ForRealThisTime said:
Where I live I can go to my local supermarket and buy organically produced meat from a local farm which is named alongside the meat. These hard working farmers put effort in to producing clean and healthy food. They take pride in what they do and they sell their produce at a reasonable price considering the effort that goes in to producing it. The meat even tastes differently.
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Yes, the meat does taste different. But, unless you have a trained palate (as I do) or have the chance to taste organic meat versus non-organic meat in the same sitting, the difference is negligible.

If I made you two versions of the same exact tomato sauce - one made with 100% organic ingredients and one made without - and you tasted them both in one sitting, you probably wouldn't be able to tell me which one was made with organic ingredients. Unfortunately, a lot of the "taste difference" for most people is a mental block that people obtain through media and society influence. People want to believe that all organic food tastes better, so they convince themselves that it does. When, in all reality, the difference is negligible in most cases. The same can be said for the look and feel, as you claim.
 
Honestly, it depends. If you have an allergy or other type of sensitivity to pesticides organic can help you. It might not be healthier for you from the point of view of nutrition, but I've seen reports of studies linking pesticides to ADHD in kids.

In the US the food industry has so much power, that you can't really trust the safe level of pesticide guidelines. For one, they're done for standalone pesticides, so the possible interactions of different pesticide residues are not even tested.

Europe for example has far more strict guidelines, where companies have to prove that a product is safe for it to be allowed (whereas in the US it is assumed safe, and it's quite hard to prove it's not). Europe even banned GMO's, and still are resistant to them (they have to be labeled). Some pesticides banned in Europe are being used in the US (one in particular is an endocrine distruptor).

I personally find it quite scary, pesticide residue is found in foods even after you wash them. I personally would rather pay more to avoid eating pesticide (or at least reduce it). There was a report of a study on the news that you can cut the level of pesticide residues in your body by 95% if you switch to organic. That's worth it to me.
 
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Jericho said:
The thread rises from the dead...ohhhhhohhhhhh


You are more than welcome to spend extra money for that 'organic' milk or 'organic' food. It's your right.
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Now you are just attempting to be patronising. You are more than welcome to quote articles you found on msn and suggest that foods which have been grown in a less polluted environment are the same as those grown in an intentionally polluted environment, it does not make you appear particularly informed.

The major food producers love ignorant people like you.


@ChefChiTown - thanks for the detailed response. I appreciate that you work in this sector however, trained palates aside, you do not need to work in an industry to enjoy, acknowledge or appreciate good produce.

Where I come from Organic means the farmer who lives a mile away grows produce without spraying chemicals all over it. It means the cattle farmer produces beef that is grass fed and hormone free. ALL of the stores that sell beef/pork etc must show exactly where the animal originated right down to the name of the farm.

If we are talking about the USA - I am not familiar with the laws regarding labeling, but if organic is a loose term in the USA that is unfortunate, but dont assume it is like that all over the world.

Forget the tomato sauce for a moment. If you had a natural ripe tomato that had just come from a local farm and was grown organically and a tomato that was non-organic. You cut them in to slices and tasted.. you would know the difference, I am pretty sure most people would.

Once you begin to process anything, turning it in to a sauce etc and add different flavours then it can be more difficult but when cooking I always aim for the best dish I can produce which means using the best ingredients I can get my hands on.

Some people may consider 'organic' to = more money. I consider it to be, at least where I am from, a better choice. Since money is of no concern to me I do not mind spending more money and I would prefer to give my money as directly to the farmer as possible rather than swanning in to a walmart type shop and handing over pennies to a corporation that is destroying food producers. If I am cooking for my nephews I do not want to be responsible for giving them pesticide infused crap, they will get the best I can find.

Finally, I think it is very unfortunate that food has become this thing we take for granted. How quickly we forget what real food should be and how much it should cost. Money is more important to some people than what they put in to their bodies. I have lived in the USA and find it incredible how cheaply I can buy milk for example, but the milk tastes disgusting and often has a best before date which is a week or two in the future. That is not normal. I dont care what anyone believes or read on msn, milk comes out of a cow is pasteurised and then has a few days before it goes bad. Nowhere else in the world that I have ever been can I buy milk by the gallon so cheaply and have it sit in my fridge for a week and still be good. Think about that... and think about why milk in the USA tastes so disgusting and unlike milk is supposed to taste.

This is not a matter of being right or wrong it is a matter of simplicity. What you put on/in produce you then consume. Would you sprinkle a handful of pesticide on your salad before you eat it? Well why would you accept a producer sprinkling the same stuff on your salad before it ever reaches you? And if that is okay with you then that is your choice :)
 
The term 'organic' is defined pretty much similarly in the EU as it is in the USA.

Just because it says 'organic' on the label, it doesn't mean there is 'organic' in the box.

I'm sure the people who produce and market the so-called 'organic' products love people who will believe everything and pay premium price for a little sticker.

By the way, most organic products come from 'major food producers'. The 'farm around the corner' has nothing to do with that, unless you look specifically for 'locally sourced'. If you buy organic, you don't support any farmers in your local area, unless you physically go to that farm and buy your products RIGHT THERE.

And even then you don't know what's in the stuff, what they fed the cows and so on.

This discussion was a dead horse pretty much from the start, but the only one that sounds patronizing is you, ForReal. You've got money? Fine. Good for you. You want to spend it on food labelled organic? Fine. Go ahead. But don't preach people just because they are more critical and are willing to look behind the pretty names and green stickers.

It's got nothing to do with simplicity. I go and get my food directly from the farm whenever I can. Simple? No. But I would bet my still sizeable backside that the stuff I get there is a lot more 'organic' (if [organic]=[in its natural state]) than any product that has ever been labelled 'organic' in any store.
 
San said:
The term 'organic' is defined pretty much similarly in the EU as it is in the USA.

Just because it says 'organic' on the label, it doesn't mean there is 'organic' in the box.

I'm sure the people who produce and market the so-called 'organic' products love people who will believe everything and pay premium price for a little sticker.

By the way, most organic products come from 'major food producers'. The 'farm around the corner' has nothing to do with that, unless you look specifically for 'locally sourced'. If you buy organic, you don't support any farmers in your local area, unless you physically go to that farm and buy your products RIGHT THERE.

And even then you don't know what's in the stuff, what they fed the cows and so on.

This discussion was a dead horse pretty much from the start, but the only one that sounds patronizing is you, ForReal. You've got money? Fine. Good for you. You want to spend it on food labelled organic? Fine. Go ahead. But don't preach people just because they are more critical and are willing to look behind the pretty names and green stickers.

It's got nothing to do with simplicity. I go and get my food directly from the farm whenever I can. Simple? No. But I would bet my still sizeable backside that the stuff I get there is a lot more 'organic' (if [organic]=[in its natural state]) than any product that has ever been labelled 'organic' in any store.
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It has everything to do with simplicity. The more simply a product is produced and sourced by an individual the less steps involved in having to preserve it, package it and make it look nice and shiny on the shelf for poorly informed shoppers who believe cheap/shiny/big is better.

I am not preaching to anyone, I am highlighting that posting a link to an article on msn and using it to back up your view that organic foods are the same as regularly produced foods is dangerous because it is not true. If something is truly organically produced then it does have less chance of bringing unwanted chemicals in to your body. Labeling is another matter entirely.

Also if you are going to reference what I said please do it correctly, where did I say I buy organic "labeled" food? The local stores where I live do buy directly from farmers as do I and there are no labels on the food... it is fresh food not stuff in bright packets with organic written all over it.


"By the way, most organic products come from 'major food producers'. The 'farm around the corner' has nothing to do with that, unless you look specifically for 'locally sourced'. If you buy organic, you don't support any farmers in your local area, unless you physically go to that farm and buy your products RIGHT THERE." - thank you so much for clearing that up - You are wrong and grossly generalising. This forum has members from all of the world and I assume you are not speaking for every country because it is not that way where I live.

If you think I am patronising because I dont just accept being told "buy 'organic' if you want it is your money" then you are as deluded as the OP. I mentioned money because it is not a factor in my purchasing choice I purchase what I know to be a good product. If food producers were forced in to producing a better product by the consumer rather than them just accepting what they are given then things may change.

I thankfully live in a place where I can go and get good organically produced vegetables and meat at source and labeling is not a concern. I stick to my point, buy a gallon of milk for $1.99 and it lasts 2 weeks in the fridge... yeah thats as healthy as real milk from an organic farm which has not been processed, of course it is.
 
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