happy anniversary bub...
may the next 100 be as awesome as the first
may the next 100 be as awesome as the first
Journey, Not A Destination
- Thread starter Steve
- Start date
Meep meep! just popping in. I did read back like a couple hundy posts, and couldnt think of anything smart or witty (brain is dead from early mornings).
Oh yeah 'holy cow 1 year already?!' thats about it
but that year has rocketed past, seriously.
Thanks Wishes! Rocket ain't the word....
What's up Trev... it has been a while. Things are great here, keeping real busy. Hopefully you can say the same... I'll have to stop by your journal in a bit.
happy anniversary bub...
may the next 100 be as awesome as the first
Thanks Mal... I hope they get better and better!
So it was a nice weekend. Friday we had a family picnic and then afterwords Krista and I went to my cousin's house. He's the guy that owns the firm I work at. It was a nice evening drinking good beers and hanging out by his pool. His house is really amazing... definitely makes me desire this house I'm looking at more and more. He says I should put an offer in no matter what. I know someone who just paid 350k for a 500k house in the area so that was promising. I can't get a hold of the homeowners though. I'm hoping they were traveling for the holiday... I'll try them later this evening.
Saturday I did a ton of reading and writing. That evening one of my best friends had Krista and I over for dinner. He lives two miles from this house I'm looking at so needless to say he's all about us getting it. It was a tasty dinner; steak, clams, shrimp, corn on the cob, beer. We then watched Jumper which was an okay movie.
Then on Sunday I did work all morning long. Krista and I decided to celebrate our anniversary on Sunday opposed to Monday. We went to this amazing place nearby called Seven Stars Inn. It's pricey but well worth it. Portions are enormous and food is delicious. I had surf and turf. Krista had jumbo shrimp stuffed with crab.
After, we went to the movies... we saw Hancock which I thoroughly enjoyed.
All in all excellent weekend.
bikinibound
New member
Is this house listed with a broker or a for sale by owner? Either way, you want to get a buyer's agent and here's why:
1. You want someone working for you to make sure your best interests are looked after.
2. There's a lot more to a real estate transaction than negotiating price--that's just a tiny bit of it. And as you said, you really don't know what you're doing--all the more reason not to try this on your own. It's just too easy to get burned--even being the intelligent person that you are. You wouldn't operate on yourself, so don't by a house on your own.
3. The seller always pays the commission. When they list their home, they agree to pay their listing broker a set amount, and the buyer's agent a set amount. With a FSBO (for sale by owner) you just tell them you won't buy it if they won't pay your agent's fee. In this market, most FSBOs will not have a problem with it, as they're selling their house (very hard for most FSBOs these days), and still paying half the commission they'd pay if they listed it with a broker.
Regardless of whether or not the house is listed with a broker, you should contact a realtor to be your agent and have them set up the showing.
The reason I said to let them know your offer is your best is b/c otherwise they'll think you're just low-balling to see if they'll take it, and they are almost guaranteed to counter your offer. This way they'll know you aren't interested in a counter offer--it's take it or leave it.
Oh, please make sure you get a GOOD agent. There are so many bad ones out there..lol. If you want, I can try to find a good local one for you. Pm me if you do.
And HAPPY ANNIVERSARY!!
Right now it's listed with a broker.
However, it's been on the market for a while now. I'm hoping their contract expires soon. I know that most contracts, if not all, have clauses in them stating a specific period of time after the contract expiration where if the house is sold through the expired listing, the broker still gets a cut, right?
Well, these people know my family. It's actually how I found out about the house.
So if the contract expires soon, I could wait and then they could save money without having to give some action to the broker since I didn't find the house through the listing.
Does that make any sense?
I agree with this... it's what I say to people about training all the time.
I guess I don't understand it enough to see value in hiring a broker. What else are they in place for besides the negotiation of the price? Do they make sure other things are legit like septic, roof, etc, etc?
With my limited knowledge it would make sense if we were in a competitive offer and I was planning on bargaining a good price.
In this case though, it's not competitive at all for this house in this area and I really am only offering what I'm willing to pay... nothing more nothing less.
This is what you do and you're my friend... so I trust you. I still don't see the value in hiring a broker though considering the above. What am I missing?
But b/c this isn't FSBO, they would by their broker and I would pay my broker assuming I hire one? Is that correct?
The reason I said to let them know your offer is your best is b/c otherwise they'll think you're just low-balling to see if they'll take it, and they are almost guaranteed to counter your offer. This way they'll know you aren't interested in a counter offer--it's take it or leave it.
That's my plan.
To summarize the two scenarios and your recommendations:
1. Contract with their broker lasts much longer so they're forced to pay it.
2. Contract with their broker expires soon and I can sneak in and have more wiggle room in terms of price since they're no longer paying their broker.
In both of these scenarios you suggest I get my own agent even though I'm offering my best offer regardless, right?
And HAPPY ANNIVERSARY!!
Thanks Kimberly!
bikinibound
New member
Sure, it makes perfect sense. Screw the realtor out of their commission--after they've spent their own time and $$ marketing the house. Just b/c you didn't find it through their marketing doesn't mean they haven't worked hard to get it sold and haven't earned a commission. It really pisses me off when people do this. Frankly, it's underhanded and dishonest. I'm surprised you would be willing to screw someone over to save yourself a few bucks. I did not expect that from you.
I think I covered that in my PM. Basically, once you have hammered out a purchase agreement--of which price is just one of the many things hammered out in one--there are still inspections, mortgage issues, surveys, title insurance and escrows, appraisals, and plenty of other things. Quite honestly, the bulk of my work as a realtor begins after the house/buyer is found and the buyers and sellers have agreed to price and terms. There are all kinds of scenarios that can arise where you will find your agent's knowledge and advice invaluable.
Yes, they would. But I honestly think the money that you or they might save would be well spent on two good realtors. It could save you and the sellers a lot more in the long run. Part of the reason that the purchase agreement here has gone from 4 pages to 7 in the 6yrs I've been a realtor is b/c of all the lawsuits that arise b/c of oversights, negligence, and shady characters involved. Having a good realtor working for you can help you avoid a costly lawsuit in the future.
Yes.
Hmm, sorry you feel that way.
I'm actually shocked that you'd think I would be purposely screwing someone over. Obviously I am ignorant as to how this all works. I suppose I'm much more acceptive of the fact that we all view things with unique lenses... those lenses not always being right/wrong and definitely not being aligned with others.
Luckily for many around here I don't go around acting surprised or judging when their ignorance shines with regards to a subject that someone knows little about and I know a lot about.
Otherwise there would be a lot of turned off people around here that feel belittled and/or judged.
While I totally respect the fact that you're trying to help me and give me valid advice here, I don't respect the fact that you're calling out my integrity.
I'm not trying to screw anyone out of anything, Kimberly. I had no idea I would be for that matter. I've never bought a house using an agent nor have I ever bought a house from someone who was using an agent.
I don't know how they get paid.
I don't know how much they get paid.
I don't know when they get paid.
I just don't know.
I was solely working from the advice I was given from a mortgage guy I know who told me if I were to wait for the contract to expire between the seller and agent... the house could be more affordable for me. Anyone with some commonsense who desires a property is going to listen to this advice.
If you took the time to realize this coupled with the fact that I'm trying to afford my dream property... that of which is really pushing the envelope financially for me, maybe your judgment would have been different. Then again, maybe not.
Using my lenses I didn't see how I'd be screwing someone who did absolutely nothing for me. How could I? The fact that it was a commission-driven business and only seeing things through the value side for me personally blinded me of the potential 'screw.' Call it snaky or greedy if you will... but I am confident in the fact that those are attributes that I am not.
Now speaking after the fact of realization....
I'm also a fan of competence.
I know for a fact that these people have not had one offer yet on their home. It's been listed since January. There was one show. Sure, factor in the R/E market which sucks currently.... but if their agent was truly doing his or her job, he or she would have 'produced' something better for them. Or is my ignorance causing me to look like an ass again?
From my perspective, which is jaded I suppose, I equate this to a trainer who does absolutely nothing for his or her clients expecting to get paid. That's crooked using my own value system.
To judge fairly, I would want to know the exact dollar amount said agent was going to make on this transaction and compare this to the amount of work he or she has put in and what exactly they have produced.
If things don't add up, I would still go through with waiting for the contract to expire. If not, that's allowing some snake of a realtor to rip off the sellers.
It can go both ways.
Are you telling me their agent has done everything up front? That's a serious question... as in... they've made zero dollars so far.
And if so, are you also telling me that said agent deserves their commission even if they showed the house once over a 6 month period and they had nothing to do with the one offer that did come up; that being my own?
I'm quite certain most anyone in my position would do what's best for themselves considering the importance this plays in my life. It's a dog eat dog world and if it came down to it and getting this house meant some guy (assuming he didn't do his job) doesn't get his check... I'm going to get the house. I'm actually quite interested in this... I might start a poll.
Does that mean I don't have morals or a piss poor character? Frankly and thankfully that's not up for anyone but me to decide. Others can judge, certainly. But that's no skin off my back since I'm happy with the man that I am and I've gone out of my way more times than not to help people for no reason beyond that of genuinely caring about people.
If this is the worst of my faults, I'll live with it.
Yea, I posted this before the PM exchange.
Relating this to above... I would have no problem paying someone (an agent working for me) money who deserves it. They do work for me that is invaluable... something of which I am not experienced to do on my own and they show their true value. I'd actually pay premium.
Maybe it's the economist in me speaking... but I just don't see the value from the above situation working with my assumptions. That is unless you blame the current R/E market for the total lack of 'shows' this agent has produced for these sellers. If that's the case, that changes some things.
Yup, I understood and appreciated that advice when you gave it to me in my PM.
Thanks.
bikinibound
New member
I knew that would piss you off, but I wanted to make sure that you and anyone else reading what you wrote would know that what you proposed was wrong.
First of all, I have no idea how you could claim ignorance in knowing that waiting until the listing expired and then working out a deal with the sellers would not screw over the agent--you said you and the sellers would not have to pay the commission--so obviously you knew the realtor would not get paid.
Yes, the realtor is putting every out there upfront. We do not get paid a dime until the sale closes. All the advertising/marketing (which can be very expensive) is paid by the realtor with no guarantee of commission. I'm sure that agent has at least several hundred dollars into that property unless he hasn't done a thing beyond put a sign in the ground and put the house on the MLS (multiple listing service). Which is possible.
You're right that their realtor may not have done much. But neither you nor I know that for sure. If what you say is true about that house only having one showing and no offers in 6-7 months, it's not that unusual in the current market--especially if the house is overpriced as you suggest it is. Now if the realtor has told the sellers it's overpriced and they refused to lower the price, the realtor can hardly be blamed for the lack of activity. I see sellers do this all the time and then blame the realtor b/c no one's looking at their house. Perhaps he hasn't told them they need to lower the price. Then he's not doing his job. This is a tough seller's market, and there are still a lot of sellers out there who refuse to see the reality that their house simply isn't worth what they feel it is. It often takes them months, sometimes a year or two to accept it.
Steve, I have always thought of you to have the highest integrity, and that's why I said I was surprised that you would suggest what you did. I assumed it was ignorance--or at least hoped it was, b/c I didn't want to think that you would knowingly swindle someone.
You said I was quick to judge you (although I don't think I was judging you at all). I merely pointed out that what you proposed was sneaky and underhanded, and that I was surprised that you would even suggest it. But if anyone is quick to judge, it's you judging that realtor. I am the first to admit that there are a lot of bad realtors out there--in fact I've already brought it up and cautioned you regarding it. But you are assuming that a realtor has not done their job b/c a house has been listed for several months with little activity. As I have already said, there could quite easily be reasons for this that are not the realtor's fault. He may have done nothing wrong--but you are quick to assume he has. He may have done very little, in which case I wouldn't blame the sellers for getting rid of him and selling the house to you without him. But it would be a bad thing to cheat him of his due if he has done his job as well as he could in the current RE market. I guess I'm as sensitive about this as you are regarding your integrity. I hear a lot of negativity about realtors being useless, etc in the media, and it really bothers me when I think about how hard I (and other realtors I know) work for my clients, and then hear shit like that. And I've also been on the receiving end of people trying to cheat me out of a hard-earned commission for no reason other than they want to save some money at my expense. So please forgive me if you feel that I attacked you personally. I just wanted to make sure that you realized what your actions could do--as I really didn't think you would want to save some money at someone else's expense.
So we both got that off our chests. I hope we are still friends, as I do have a ton of respect for you and value your friendship. You unwittingly pushed the wrong button with me, and I in turn did the same to you. I hope that you can purchase that home--and that you find a good realtor to help you do it however it turns out with the seller's agent.
First of all, I have no idea how you could claim ignorance in knowing that waiting until the listing expired and then working out a deal with the sellers would not screw over the agent--you said you and the sellers would not have to pay the commission--so obviously you knew the realtor would not get paid.
Yes, the realtor is putting every out there upfront. We do not get paid a dime until the sale closes. All the advertising/marketing (which can be very expensive) is paid by the realtor with no guarantee of commission. I'm sure that agent has at least several hundred dollars into that property unless he hasn't done a thing beyond put a sign in the ground and put the house on the MLS (multiple listing service). Which is possible.
You're right that their realtor may not have done much. But neither you nor I know that for sure. If what you say is true about that house only having one showing and no offers in 6-7 months, it's not that unusual in the current market--especially if the house is overpriced as you suggest it is. Now if the realtor has told the sellers it's overpriced and they refused to lower the price, the realtor can hardly be blamed for the lack of activity. I see sellers do this all the time and then blame the realtor b/c no one's looking at their house. Perhaps he hasn't told them they need to lower the price. Then he's not doing his job. This is a tough seller's market, and there are still a lot of sellers out there who refuse to see the reality that their house simply isn't worth what they feel it is. It often takes them months, sometimes a year or two to accept it.
Steve, I have always thought of you to have the highest integrity, and that's why I said I was surprised that you would suggest what you did. I assumed it was ignorance--or at least hoped it was, b/c I didn't want to think that you would knowingly swindle someone.
You said I was quick to judge you (although I don't think I was judging you at all). I merely pointed out that what you proposed was sneaky and underhanded, and that I was surprised that you would even suggest it. But if anyone is quick to judge, it's you judging that realtor. I am the first to admit that there are a lot of bad realtors out there--in fact I've already brought it up and cautioned you regarding it. But you are assuming that a realtor has not done their job b/c a house has been listed for several months with little activity. As I have already said, there could quite easily be reasons for this that are not the realtor's fault. He may have done nothing wrong--but you are quick to assume he has. He may have done very little, in which case I wouldn't blame the sellers for getting rid of him and selling the house to you without him. But it would be a bad thing to cheat him of his due if he has done his job as well as he could in the current RE market. I guess I'm as sensitive about this as you are regarding your integrity. I hear a lot of negativity about realtors being useless, etc in the media, and it really bothers me when I think about how hard I (and other realtors I know) work for my clients, and then hear shit like that. And I've also been on the receiving end of people trying to cheat me out of a hard-earned commission for no reason other than they want to save some money at my expense. So please forgive me if you feel that I attacked you personally. I just wanted to make sure that you realized what your actions could do--as I really didn't think you would want to save some money at someone else's expense.
So we both got that off our chests. I hope we are still friends, as I do have a ton of respect for you and value your friendship. You unwittingly pushed the wrong button with me, and I in turn did the same to you. I hope that you can purchase that home--and that you find a good realtor to help you do it however it turns out with the seller's agent.
wishes
Coffee Addict
I dont understand why you are being so hard on Steve. Everyone looks out for themselves. I mean you go shopping and choose the cheaper option on foods often enough, but hang on, you are screwing over the higher priced stuff!
What about when you get things from a wholesale shop?
What about moving from one employer to another to get a higher wage? are you screwing people over then?
End result, just because you play the game of life smart doesnt mean you are nessarily screwing people over. The real estate agenst arnt stupid, thats why they sign people into stupid agreements to be sole agency and you cant sell your house elsewhere etc. If they dont sell it in that time its their own fault.
What about when you get things from a wholesale shop?
What about moving from one employer to another to get a higher wage? are you screwing people over then?
End result, just because you play the game of life smart doesnt mean you are nessarily screwing people over. The real estate agenst arnt stupid, thats why they sign people into stupid agreements to be sole agency and you cant sell your house elsewhere etc. If they dont sell it in that time its their own fault.
bikinibound
New member
I absolutely disagree with you, and if you were in my line of work you would not feel as you do. Why would anyone spend hundreds of dollars upfront to try to sell your house when anyone else could come in at any time and sell it? If that were the case, no one would even be in this business. I sure as hell wouldn't. If that agent has been doing his job, he deserves a fair suck of the sauce bottle. It's hard enough for realtors in this country to make a decent living as it is--and the ones who do really well often do so b/c their ethics are rather lacking. It's the agents who are above board who often get the short end of the stick. Trust me--I don't know a single agent who's never gotten screwed over by a client--busted their ass for them only to have them go off with another agent and buy/sell a house. There seems to be very little loyalty in this business, yet I have never knowingly or unknowingly (as far as I know) swindled a client or put my interests above theirs. That is how I play, and I expect others (rather naively in your opinion I guess) to do the same.
First, let me suggest something with regards to our friendship...
Even if I unintentionally press a hot button with you... questioning my integrity in order to "make sure" I see your point probably isn't the best move on your part. Especially when you factor in a) the fact that you know me and understand the man that I am and b) this medium of exchange is part of how I conduct my business as a professional and maintaining the honest and sincere image is something I work hard to upkeep.
Yes, after the fact I realize it's a hot button in your life. You've been burned by your clients waiting out contracts. This fact doesn't give the green light to question my morals and ethics in my opinion.
Again questioning my honesty....
I assumed your market or industry was smart enough to get paid something up front.
This way, if there isn't a deal the agent still gets paid something. It also leaves a fair proposition for the paying customer. If they aren't happy with the agent for whatever reason, they pay a fee for the work the agent has done thus far, but obviously they get nothing in terms of commission since they didn't get the house sold.
This actually seems fair to me. As I said in the poll thread I started, this is the direction the financial advising industry has moved and we're the most heavily regulated industry out there in terms of government regulation and assuring a fair market for the consumer.
Sue me for thinking logically. I was working on an assumption... not trying to be a snake. A wrong assumption is just that... wrong and nothing else.
This is all fine and dandy...
Learn something new ever day.
This was not the idea I was operating under, however.
Even with the facts straight, to be honest, I'm undecided on whether I agree with you on the immorality of it all.
It's immoral in my mind for the seller to wait for the contract to expire ASSUMING they were happy with their agent's service.
If they weren't happy with the agent's service, I see nothing wrong. Welcome to America... do a good job and please your clients in order to be fairly compensated.... or don't and lose money.
On the buyer's side of things, I'm not sure at all if I see your point where the buyer has an ethical duty or moral obligation to uphold in the name of the agent that is working for the seller and who did nothing for said buyer.
I'd be interested in seeing what you would do as the buyer who is strapped for cash and looking out for the best interest of your family had you no affiliation, now or ever, with the R/E industry.
I never suggested it was overpriced.
I said it's out of my price range.
From what I know they're actually listing it slightly below value.
Certainly.
You can run what-ifs for every single scenario all day long.
Acting surprised is fine.
Assuming my intentions was not.
You did both in the same sentence, twice, which is what I took issue with. I'd be okay with it, honestly, if you and I weren't friends and you didn't know me.
But that's not the case.
This is probably one of those cases where we each have different value systems, beliefs and definitely perceptions.
In my world when someone says this to me:
and this:
It represents an assumption of character and integrity.
I personally would have done some investigative digging before I passed assumption on a friend to find out what ideas he or she was working under... especially since you knew I was ignorant with regards to the subject at hand.
This goes back to the question of, does the buyer have a moral obligation to the seller's agent?
Given what I've learned from you yesterday and from the other agents who have contacted me from the board, I'm not sure I see an issue with the buyer going to the seller and asking something like....
"Are you happy with what your agent has done for you? If not, assuming the contract expires sooner than later, would you consider selling to me after the contract expires?"
This is all HYPOTHETICAL at this point b/c I learned enough yesterday that I am positive working with an agent is in my best interest. But that doesn't alleviate the issue of whether or not the buyer has a moral obligation, and that is what I'm interested in hearing opinions on, hence the poll thread.
If a home is listed below market value and there has been extremely little activity and no offers in over half a year... it can be one of two things.
The market is so bad that it demands a lower price
or
The agent is doing his or her job
Given what I know about the competence of so called 'professionals' I'm not so sure most would blame me for assuming the worst about the agent.
And again, all of this about me assuming stuff about the agent is moot since the concept in question is whether or not the buyer has a moral obligation to the seller's agent.
I suppose I agree with this.
You hating the labels placed on R/E agents and questioning my personal integrity and character are two very different things in my perspective.
I had no intentions of pissing you off. I had no intentions of insulting you or your profession. I wasn't talking bad about R/E agents in general. I was simply working with my best intentions for my family in mind.
This is your customer's cheating you for whatever reason. If you did good work for them... they are cheating you.
I am not the agent's customer though.
I am a buyer in a free and open market (god bless America) trying to get the best deal for myself.
I do forgive you although based on this post I have a feeling this discussion isn't over. I'd love to move this to the poll thread to get others insights as well. Would you be okay with that or would you prefer it remains here?
To be honest... at this point this isn't a me vs. you thing anymore, Kimberly. I'm genuinely interested in the concept of who has a moral obligation to the agent.
You actually had me questioning my own ethics there for a moment yesterday and at this stage in the game I'm not sure I was right in doing that.
Likewise, and I appreciate it.