I don't get this...

mucleboywannabe · Aug 24, 2006

people are saying you can't cut and gain muscle at the same time...but what if your doing lots of HIIT and lots of resistance training plus eating healthy and lots of protein

shouldn't you technically loose fat and gain more definition?

niceone · Aug 24, 2006

It's not impossbile to achieve both fatloss and muscle gain.. BUT generally in order to oxidize fat with cardio you require a caloric deficit, and in order to grow (feed muscles), one must consume a caloric surplus. Thats just the way it is.. However other factors can come into play.
For instance, if your diet isn't straight and you begin lifting and eating well, chances are your body might have less fat to store than before and you might gain muscle while losing fat. BUT this trend doesn't usually continue for very long. Some people who are prone to muscle growth and low bodyfat are able to achieve both at once, but for the average person, its not too likely.

~LV~ · Aug 24, 2006

mucleboywannabe said:
but what if your doing lots of HIIT and lots of resistance training?

Than you will most likely be overtraining.....

niceone pretty much broke it down.

mucleboywannabe · Aug 26, 2006

what happens if you lift weights when your caloric deficit? you just wont get bigger?

AJP · Aug 26, 2006

mucleboywannabe said:
what happens if you lift weights when your caloric deficit? you just wont get bigger?

No. you won't.

Getting bigger requires food, and a lot of it.

malkore · Aug 26, 2006

you can get bigger, but its a horridly slow process. you might gain .5lbs of muscle in a week while cutting 1.5lbs of fat.

as opposed toa clean bulk, where you might gain 1-1.5lbs of muscle in a week, and maybe .5lbs of fat with it.

niceone · Aug 26, 2006

mucleboywannabe said:
what happens if you lift weights when your caloric deficit? you just wont get bigger?

I think the idea is to keep your body active. Naturally your body will want to shed unused muscle when it is low on cals because it's hard to feed them. BUT if you give your body a reason to maintain muscle (continued lifting), it will hold on to more. Not everyone can lift HEAVY when they are cutting, and you will likely find with the lower cals that your strength levels decrease noticeably. I would go for higher rep, lower weight while cutting.

Jet_Black · Aug 27, 2006

I still don't get what the difference between a cutting routine/diet and a bulking routine diet is!

newf · Aug 27, 2006

You eat more on a bulk, simple. Has for training that depends on your goal but if it's hypertrophy preserving and/or gaining strength is one of the main objectives.

niceone · Aug 27, 2006

Very simple breakdown..

Bulking

Eating a caloric surplus (more than you would normally need).
Lifting heavier weights to stimulate the larger muscle fibers.

Cutting

Eating a caloric deficit (eating less that you would normall need).
Lifting lighter weights (usually higher rep than while bulking). This is to maintain as much muscle as possible. If you were to simply lower your caloric intake, your body would hold onto less muscle mass as it is no longer needed (not being used).

mucleboywannabe · Aug 28, 2006

is bulking and cutting every other week switching them back and forth too short?

newf · Aug 28, 2006

mucleboywannabe said:
is bulking and cutting every other week switching them back and forth too short?

Not a good idea. I assume your pretty young, i could be mistaken. If so just concentrate on good meal choices. Lean proteins, veggies, fruit, healthy fats. I would limit starchy carbs (oats, bread etc) to the mornings and after your workouts.

If you want muscle dude you have to get strong. Learn how to train and form lasting dietary habits.

This is the basic meal plan i follow - diet is not near so complicated has alot of people make it. It consistency that's important.

http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nutrition/7habits.htm

xtonymarsx · Aug 28, 2006

There is a difference between getting stronger and gaining muscle. You can train your existing muscle to get stronger by working out, but only way to burn fat is by cutting calories from your diet.

Newbies can gain muscle and cut fat easily at first because their body is just going nuts when they first start working out. Best way to go is either cutting or bulking...and your eating habits have to correspond with your goal.

malkore · Aug 28, 2006

niceone said:
Very simple breakdown..

Bulking

Eating a caloric surplus (more than you would normally need).

Lifting heavier weights to stimulate the larger muscle fibers.

Cutting

Eating a caloric deficit (eating less that you would normall need).

Lifting lighter weights (usually higher rep than while bulking). This is to maintain as much muscle as possible. If you were to simply lower your caloric intake, your body would hold onto less muscle mass as it is no longer needed (not being used).

I don't wanna start an argument here, but I disagree on the above rep scheme for cutting. Obviously on a bulk, you lift for hypertrophy so your reps are around 8-12 per set.
However on a cutting diet, I think you should lower your reps in the 4-6 range, as though you're training purely for strength, and not hypertrophy, and not endurance (15+ reps).
The heavy weight lifting will stress the body to retain the lean mass you have now. Not lifting for hypertrophy, so we won't damage as much muscle, so recovery won't be too bad since our caloric deficit should cover it.

That's just my take on it, from the stuff I have read, and tried.

But to argue against myself, HIIT is good for fat loss, and you obviously get more than 6 reps per set when interval training.

If one approach doesn't work for you, try another

deae1 · Aug 29, 2006

bulking and cutting isnt necessary unless your a bodybuilder. i know lots of boxers and MMA fighters who are muscular and very cut. they do LOTS of cardio and still manage to put on muscle mass. watch the ufc... about 70% of them guys are built and cut up. where i live (nyc) you can go to any park and find atleast 10 black guys who are built like horses and all they do is play basketball and do pushups pull ups etc .. you do not need to eat like a bodybuilder to build muscle. i know people in jail who got huge from doing pushups pullups dips etc and just eating 3 little meals a day. of course its gona be easier to build muscle if you ''bulk''.. but then you get might get a belly.. i learned the hard way...... just eat lots of meat veggies potatoes lift your weights do your cardio and you will build muscle.. it might take a little longer but the muscle will come!

niceone · Aug 29, 2006

deae1 said:
bulking and cutting isnt necessary unless your a bodybuilder. i know lots of boxers and MMA fighters who are muscular and very cut. they do LOTS of cardio and still manage to put on muscle mass. watch the ufc... about 70% of them guys are built and cut up. where i live (nyc) you can go to any park and find atleast 10 black guys who are built like horses and all they do is play basketball and do pushups pull ups etc .. you do not need to eat like a bodybuilder to build muscle. i know people in jail who got huge from doing pushups pullups dips etc and just eating 3 little meals a day. of course its gona be easier to build muscle if you ''bulk''.. but then you get might get a belly.. i learned the hard way...... just eat lots of meat veggies potatoes lift your weights do your cardio and you will build muscle.. it might take a little longer but the muscle will come!

Yeah but you realize that the people who are huge with ****ty diets and lots of cardio are predisposed to being that way, right? If I did that, I would lose weight like mad.

Just eat lots of vegetables and potatoes and lift? Do you know how muscles grow?

Not to sound like a knowitall (because I have much to learn still).. But the information you have given here only pertains to a very small number of people.. It isn't sound advice.

Hawk · Aug 30, 2006

niceone said:
Yeah but you realize that the people who are huge with ****ty diets and lots of cardio are predisposed to being that way, right? If I did that, I would lose weight like mad.

I hear that all the time. Genetics this, genetics that.

Genetics is the universal crutch for those refusing to let their workout be 90% of their focus. The plain bare truth, provable by going back in history to the founders of weight training is that your program should be heavy enough to gain necessary mass, and intense enough to create fantastic cardio results.

If you do this, you WILL be strong, you WILL have the necessary mass, and you WILL be cut. -The result: HEALTH.

I train in this exact fashion. When your program is as listed above, and you eat whole foods, and nothing but, you end up FAR better than anyone else with a modern program today.

Just eat lots of vegetables and potatoes and lift? Do you know how muscles grow? Not to sound like a knowitall (because I have much to learn still).. But the information you have given here only pertains to a very small number of people.. It isn't sound advice.

I disagree.

Veggies and potatoes are NECESSARY to supply the carbs and nutrients your body requires. When you have a high intensity workout, you NEED the whole natural foods and your body does well with them. Those carb sources are not meant to be protein.

Protein does not build muscle by its self, and neither do carbs provide energy by themselves. An intense program breaks down that fat immediately and THEN works on the protein stores. You keep carbs going in and fat eliminated by eating the veggies and such, while burning it by the training program. This keeps the meat and other protein sources available for gaining the bulk.

-And what do I mean by intense?

How about 1 set of 60 squats with butt to floor?
----Right after 1 set of 40 clean-and-presses with only 2 minutes rest until the squats?

THAT is intense. -And no, that isn't a program, that is merely 2 exercises.

deae1 · Aug 30, 2006

niceone said:
Yeah but you realize that the people who are huge with ****ty diets and lots of cardio are predisposed to being that way, right? If I did that, I would lose weight like mad.

Just eat lots of vegetables and potatoes and lift? Do you know how muscles grow? Not to sound like a knowitall (because I have much to learn still).. But the information you have given here only pertains to a very small number of people.. It isn't sound advice.

when the hell did i say that they had ****ty diets? i said eat the right foods and the muscle will build. and theyre not ''predisposed'' to be that way you ****in retard. look at brad pitt and all those actors with the nice bodies. those motha****as dont even know what bulking and cuttin is. they just eat right lift weights and do cardio. look at most boxers and most MMA fighters.. theyre muscular and lean and they do not ''bulk'' and cut''.. how about the warriors from back in the troy and braveheart days.. those ****s were huge because they lifted heavy things and ate lots of fish chicken veggies etc. if you go to any prision you will find 100's of huge dudes who have no clue what bulking and cutting is. stop believing everything you read... a misprint in a health book can kill you.

niceone · Aug 30, 2006

Well.. You really missed what I was getting at there patna'..
The man was saying essentially, if you do lots of pushups and play lots of basketball like the dudes in the park, you will get big. The sad truth is, that is not the case.

"Genetics this, genetics that?"..

Unfortunately there ARE people who are more prone to fat storage.. there ARE people who have much faster metabolisms and it's harder for them to put on mass.. There ARE people who can literally train any way they like, maintain a crappo diet and still gain tons of muscle. If you actually think that genetics don't play a role and are a "crutch" as you put it, you might have missed out on some physiological basics. Take Joe Blow and his friend and put them on the same training program with the exact same diet.. they MIGHT get similar results, but one MIGHT also do much better than the other. This isn't really complicated stuff.

Thank you for the lesson on nutrition as well. I'm very much aware of the how the body utilizes protein, fat and carbohydrates. Look at what I quoted:

"Just eat lots of vegetables and potatoes and lift"

I was simply saying that advice like that is... well.. it's not so great.

Hawk said:
-And what do I mean by intense?

How about 1 set of 60 squats with butt to floor?
----Right after 1 set of 40 clean-and-presses with only 2 minutes rest until the squats?

THAT is intense. -And no, that isn't a program, that is merely 2 exercises.

I am quite impressed by your 2 exercises, which I am sure are just a mere footnote of a whole big juicy typeI muscle fiber recruiting exercise regime.

niceone · Aug 30, 2006

Chillllll winstannnnn... Cool your jets.

deae1 said:
when the hell did i say that they had ****ty diets?

I was referring to your prison buddies, who as we all know, likely didn't eat the healthiest of foods.

deae1 said:
i know people in jail who got huge from doing pushups pullups dips etc and just eating 3 little meals a day.

deae1 said:
and theyre not ''predisposed'' to be that way you ****in retard. look at brad pitt and all those actors with the nice bodies. those motha****as dont even know what bulking and cuttin is.

Okay.. For one, I am not a "****ing retard".. Use your big people words, this isn't bodybuilding dot com. And.. Yes it is true, some people are genetically gifted. I'm not saying that you can't change your appearance. I'm not saying that skinny or fat people should give up and not bother. I'm just saying that some people are more likely to have a good physique than others. Take my 3 cousins for instance. They have never worked out a day in their lives.. I saw them about 3 years ago and they were all about 7% bodyfat with RIPPED 8 packs. You know what those little bastards eat for dinner every night? Kraft friggin' dinner

So like I said, whether you think people are being lazy or not, there is QUITE a bit to genetics.

deae1 said:
how about the warriors from back in the troy and braveheart days..those ****s were huge because they lifted heavy things and ate lots of fish chicken veggies etc. if you go to any prision you will find 100's of huge dudes who have no clue what bulking and cutting is. stop believing everything you read... a misprint in a health book can kill you.

Yeah, but what they didn't focus on in troy where the hard working farmers and villagers who weren't huge. Do you get this information for watching movies? And the whole Jail thing is cool and all.. But are you aware of how many of those guys are in horrible shape and still lift? Do you actually have prison buddies? Again.. too many movies. Some people just wont get "HUGE" even if they lift all the time.
Stop believing everything I read? Well.. If I believed everything I read, I would be in a sorry state after reading your uneducated, hollywood enduced response.

If you care to challenge my knowledge on nutrition or 'gettin' f***in' jacked'.. Let's do it.