From the sticky in this forum...

shygemini

shygemini

Member
START QUOTE FROM STICKY

First find your activity level on the table below. Multiply your weight by the number indicated. (You may fall between two categories. If that’s the case, adjust the number by adding a point or so.) The result is the number of calories you need to maintain your weight. Let’s say you weigh 135 pounds and do light exercise one to three days a week. Multiply 135 by 13.5 to get, approximately, 1,800 calories. If you want to drop some pounds, try cutting out 250 calories a day, says Lee. In a year, if you make no other changes, you could be 26 pounds lighter. Exercise more and you could lose more, too.

And Your Number Is…
You Exercise: Almost never
Multiply Your Current Weight By: 12

You Exercise: Lightly, one to three days a week
Multiply Your Current Weight By: 13.5

You Exercise: Moderately, three to five days a week
Multiply Your Current Weight By: 15.5

You Exercise: Vigorously, six to seven days a week
Multiply Your Current Weight By: 17

You Exercise: Vigorously, daily, and you have a physical job
Multiply Your Current Weight By: 19


END QUOTE FROM STICKY

Ok sorry, this is probably one of the worst calculations for caloric needs i have ever seen. What is this based on? (i would say nothing, off hand).

Lets take me for instance.

279 lbs x 12 = 3348 calories
279 lbs x 13.5 = 3766 calories

If i subtract even 500 calories from those amounts, there is no way I would lose weight. Calorie 'calculations' like these just are not accurate.

Anyway just really wanted to comment on that but couldn't since the thread was locked.
 
Agreed!

I weigh about 150lbs (don't weigh myself every week so am not 100% but its around that mark.)

I exercise 5-6 days a week. 5 of those are pure cardio anywhere from 1 hour to 2 hours a time, I keep an eye on my heart rate and it goes as high as 95% and averages at 75% for the duration, I also do resistance training and powerplate stuff 1 day a week for about 1-2 hours, plenty of times I even fear my workout as it requires so much energy to keep up, so I know I work out hard.

I also keep to a diet of 1800kcals. Occasionally I fall out of the pattern and eat 2000kcals per day but its not every day and my weight is maintaining. I am not losing, not gaining.

Now following the chart above, I can apparently eat up to 2400kcals a day.

No Way!

I never eat that much! I eat below 2000 and 2000 on a bad day. Its hard keeping to that I might add as I get so hungry yet I keep to it and I maintain my weight, not losing anything. According to the chart I should have lost alot of weight very quickly.

Bad chart?!
 
Looks like some missing decimals.

The Harris Benedict Equation is a formula that uses your BMR and then applies an activity factor to determine your total daily energy expenditure (calories). The only factor omitted by the Harris Benedict Equation is lean body mass. Remember, leaner bodies need more calories than less leaner ones. Therefore, this equation will be very accurate in all but the very muscular (will under-estimate calorie needs) and the very fat (will over-estimate calorie needs).


Harris Benedict Formula

To determine your total daily calorie needs, multiply your BMR by the appropriate activity factor, as follows:

1. If you are sedentary (little or no exercise) : Calorie-Calculation = BMR x 1.2

2. If you are lightly active (light exercise/sports 1-3 days/week) : Calorie-Calculation = BMR x 1.375

3. If you are moderatetely active (moderate exercise/sports 3-5 days/week) : Calorie-Calculation = BMR x 1.55

4. If you are very active (hard exercise/sports 6-7 days a week) : Calorie-Calculation = BMR x 1.725

5. If you are extra active (very hard exercise/sports & physical job or 2x training) : Calorie-Calculation = BMR x 1.9
 
As for where... the first part of that section

The best advice: Don't starve yourself. "If you want to lose weight and keep it off forever, you need a modest calorie restriction that you simply continue and never stop," says nutritionist Christopher Gardner. But what's the right number of calories for you? Use this easy formula, a favorite of cardiologist Thomas Lee, editor in chief of the Harvard Heart Letter.
 
Jericho said:
Looks like some missing decimals.

The Harris Benedict Equation is a formula that uses your BMR and then applies an activity factor to determine your total daily energy expenditure (calories). The only factor omitted by the Harris Benedict Equation is lean body mass. Remember, leaner bodies need more calories than less leaner ones. Therefore, this equation will be very accurate in all but the very muscular (will under-estimate calorie needs) and the very fat (will over-estimate calorie needs).


Harris Benedict Formula

To determine your total daily calorie needs, multiply your BMR by the appropriate activity factor, as follows:

1. If you are sedentary (little or no exercise) : Calorie-Calculation = BMR x 1.2

2. If you are lightly active (light exercise/sports 1-3 days/week) : Calorie-Calculation = BMR x 1.375

3. If you are moderatetely active (moderate exercise/sports 3-5 days/week) : Calorie-Calculation = BMR x 1.55

4. If you are very active (hard exercise/sports 6-7 days a week) : Calorie-Calculation = BMR x 1.725

5. If you are extra active (very hard exercise/sports & physical job or 2x training) : Calorie-Calculation = BMR x 1.9
Click to expand...

Harris Benedict isn't a great formula either (no formulas are) but it is a good starting point anyway.
 
Jericho said:
Looks like some missing decimals.

The Harris Benedict Equation is a formula that uses your BMR and then applies an activity factor to determine your total daily energy expenditure (calories). The only factor omitted by the Harris Benedict Equation is lean body mass. Remember, leaner bodies need more calories than less leaner ones. Therefore, this equation will be very accurate in all but the very muscular (will under-estimate calorie needs) and the very fat (will over-estimate calorie needs).


Harris Benedict Formula

To determine your total daily calorie needs, multiply your BMR by the appropriate activity factor, as follows:

1. If you are sedentary (little or no exercise) : Calorie-Calculation = BMR x 1.2

2. If you are lightly active (light exercise/sports 1-3 days/week) : Calorie-Calculation = BMR x 1.375

3. If you are moderatetely active (moderate exercise/sports 3-5 days/week) : Calorie-Calculation = BMR x 1.55

4. If you are very active (hard exercise/sports 6-7 days a week) : Calorie-Calculation = BMR x 1.725

5. If you are extra active (very hard exercise/sports & physical job or 2x training) : Calorie-Calculation = BMR x 1.9
Click to expand...

It's good advice but how do you get an accurate figure for your BMR? I tried several different websites and they all give me different numbers. lol
 
The trouble is that all BMR type formulas apply ONLY to adults with healthy body weights (i.e. between BMI of 18.5- 24.9 kg/m2). So, applying them to those who are overweight compounds the inherent errors in these formulas. We can use them as a guess of caloric needs, but they simply are not that accurate in most cases. Even for those of healthy weights, they tend to overestimate our basal energy needs.

You are likely getting different numbers because the sites are using different base formulas to calculate BMR (there are 4 quite popular ones).
 
shygemini said:
The trouble is that all BMR type formulas apply ONLY to adults with healthy body weights (i.e. between BMI of 18.5- 24.9 kg/m2). So, applying them to those who are overweight compounds the inherent errors in these formulas. We can use them as a guess of caloric needs, but they simply are not that accurate in most cases. Even for those of healthy weights, they tend to overestimate our basal energy needs.

You are likely getting different numbers because the sites are using different base formulas to calculate BMR (there are 4 quite popular ones).
Click to expand...

Ohhh Ok, this makes sense. Hmm I just wish I could get an accurate number. But judging by my progress so far and on what calories I lose weight at and what calories I stay the same at I'd say the sites are WAY Off for people my weight. I think they over estimate by A LOT!
 
Formulas never worked for me. I've gained so much weight by trying to mathematically determine how much I should eat in a day.

Good luck with those. I hear it sometimes works for other people so who knows?
 
Shy, the guidlines you point out in the first post is really a shortcut method, and I always thought that was quite clear.

For example, for a couple weeks I was multiplying my bodyweight x10 and trying to eat that many calories, and wasn't losing weight.

Of course, I wasn't counting so I have no idea if I was hitting my target or overshooting.


When I used the Harris-Bennedict equation, and calculated my BMR using the formula in the "how many calories should I eat" sticky in the nutrition subforum, I got a number 1000 calories less than what I calculated with the shortcut method to lose 3lbs per week. I've been counting and hitting my calorie marks, and so far i believe I'm right on my 3lbs lost per week mark, maybe a little more. I was honest about my activity - aside from my <60min of exercise <5 days per week, I'm pretty sedentary, due to my job. So I used the lowest number activity multiplier. I'm almost double the BMR that you say the formulas are accurate for, and yet I'm seeing just the results I calculated. I may even up my calories because I think I may have underestimated my BMR a little.

And has been pointed out, all the formulas are starting points for people who have no idea how much they should eat. The idea is to try it, and then adjust when necessary. As you lose weight, BMR drops. The longer you are in a calorie defecit, the more your body adapts. As I've said before, just because it isn't perfect, and needs adjustments, doesn't mean the method is broken. For those of who claim it doesn't work, one side of the calories in < calories out equation is wrong - either over consumption, or overestimation of BMR. If you don't adjust, of course its not going to work.

I still want to hear from someone who doesn't buy into the BMR and counting calories method, whats the alternative method then for determining what to eat, and how much? If I'm doing it wrong or being obsessive or thinking too much or whatever, whats the better/easier method? Not trying to be mean, just want to know...
 
I agree about it being guidelines, but even in my short time here i have noticed many people taking what the formulas say as the absolute truth. For that reason i felt it necessary to post.

That being said, it is 100% true (If anyone wants references, i will gladly post them) that the formulas are not meant for those outside of the healthy weight range. I'm not saying you can't use them, i just think it is good to be informed. So just something to keep in mind :)
 
shygemini said:
I agree about it being guidelines, but even in my short time here i have noticed many people taking what the formulas say as the absolute truth. For that reason i felt it necessary to post.

That being said, it is 100% true (If anyone wants references, i will gladly post them) that the formulas are not meant for those outside of the healthy weight range. I'm not saying you can't use them, i just think it is good to be informed. So just something to keep in mind :)
Click to expand...

Thanks! That's good to know. I've wondered about that myself as I gain weight on the amount of calories that several formulas say is my Resting Metabolic Rate. In the past in this forum I've been told that I must not be adding my calories right (I assure you I am very meticulous when it comes to my food dairy, weighing, measuring, and counting the calories of everything I eat). I was beginning to wonder if there was something seriously wrong with me, but if these figures are not meant for someone who is on the extreme end of the spectrum I can understand how they would be inaccurate for me.
 
We have to take into consideration that we are all different human beings. I have been reading a lot about weight loss and stuff searching for the real deal but i have therefore concluded that there are a lot of ways to lose weight. Yes there are some rules that are written in stone like calories in and calories out but there are many gray areas too. Been calculating my BMI and BMR and what else is there to calculate. Since it is different for everyone, I strongly suggest that you keep a journal and see what works for you. I use a fitness journal. It’s a calorie counter. LINK REMOVED it’s a small price to pay and I think they don’t go higher than 5 bucks. It’s not so bad right.
 
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Thanks for the advice, downwitthefat. I did that too a couple months ago, and I have found that it is very helpful. I seem to need WAY less calories then most of the calorie recomendation sites say, so I had to just keep tweeking until I found that what works best for me (wich gets me a weight loss of 2-3 pounds a week) is eating about 1,600 - 1,800 calories a day - which is WAY fewer calories then most of the sites recommend. But I find if eat as much as the sites recommend then I get no weight loss or a tiny bit (like 1/2 a pound a week). That's just too darn slow.

So yeah, you're right, you just kind of have to figure out what works for you, and not rely so much on what the calorie calculators claim you should eat.
 
Those numbers actually aren't terribly far off so I wouldn't label them as "terrible." They're just being misused. It'd be better to say those numbers are reasonable estimates of maintenance calories for active folks. And of course we know we need to subtract calories from maintenance to invoke a deficit.

Assuming someone is active in that they're doing some form of exercise most days of the week, I'll almost always figure out their starting maintenance by using 14-16 calories per pound of body weight. From there, I'd subtract to make a supposed deficit.

There's research that supports these numbers. I spent a brief period of time searching for the paper... but no luck. But sufficed to say that I've worked with a wide range of folks over the decade + I've been doing this and the numbers I use workout to be usable more often than not.

And just for the record, assuming fat loss is the goal, I'll typically start folks at 10-12 calories per pound.

But here's the major kicker, as has been noted by others above....

Starting calorie calculations are just about meaningless. This is a PROCESS. One that involves continual adjustment to your nutrition and exercise based on results.

Read this:


The Importance (or lack of) of Pin-Pointing Exact Caloric Intake
 
so you would start me at 2700 calories/day? i think that is far too much personally...that is actually my maintenance calories. unless you meant that 10-12x your weight = your maintenance and then you subtract from there to get your caloric intake.

Personally, i feel there are far better ways to determine the amount of calories you need (and yes, it is not an exact science as we are not machines) then those equations, which i feel are misleading.

I have been going between around 1700-2300 calories/day and losing consistently, so all in all i agree it is about finding out what works for you and constantly revising your goals.
 
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shygemini said:
so you would start me at 2700 calories/day? i think that is far too much personally...that is actually my maintenance calories. unless you meant that 10-12x your weight = your maintenance and then you subtract from there to get your caloric intake.
Click to expand...

No, that's not what I meant.

In most contexts, 10 calories per pound is going to be BMR for someone.

If we look at your stats, you're obese. That tends to skew things slightly. Reason being - muscle is more metabolically active than fat. So as your ratio of fat to muscle grows out of proportion in favor of fat, most equations go out the window. Not completely, mind you. But minor adjustments need to be made.

Something like 8-9 cals per pound might be called for depending on the level of obesity we're dealing with. Maybe lower.

But it should be noted that many dietitians are going to take your weight and multiply it by 10 to estimate BMR. And as we know, you don't subtract off of BMR to create a deficit. You subtract off of total needs which includes BMR, TEF, TEA, SPA.

There's a cost to all tissue though... fat, muscle, connective, organs, etc - so the larger you are, the higher your total cost is, even at rest. Which is why obese folks typically are shocked when they're hooked up to a calorimeter and figure out what their true bmr is, because it's always very high compared to what they expect.

Not saying this is the case with you SG, as I've seen you post enough to know you're not ignorant. I'm just rambling generalities here.

Personally, i feel there are far better ways to determine the amount of calories you need (and yes, it is not an exact science as we are not machines) then those equations, which i feel are misleading.
Click to expand...

Yea, I don't really have a response for you to this other than I've had over 500 people come through the doors of my business and this is always how I start the process that's described in the article I linked to above. The vast majority of the time the simple equation as I described is accurate enough that no major changes need to happen, so from my experience, it would be a massive stretch to call the numbers I use misleading.

But maybe I wasn't clear enough, which is probably the case.

There have been those outliers that needed significant adjustment, but they've been so infrequent that I can remember them by name - keeping in mind I've been doing this for 11 years.

And in those cases, we were dealing with significant medical issues that needed medicinal intervention to regulate certain pathways in the body.

Also keep in mind that I've worked with folks who are mostly sedentary and don't exercise but 3 times per week and when they do exercise, it's not very calorically expensive. Obviously, for those folks, initial adjustments have to be made. Maybe 12 calories per pound or so as maintenance and subtract from there.

Remember, the 14-16 calories per pound number is for not too fat, not too thin people who exercise most days of the week with moderate to high intensity. I probably should have been more specific about that to begin with.

Maybe that changes your perception of the formula.

One of the better calorie calculators I've used online is from Stevens Creek. I say it's good because I've had numerous clients get their metabolisms tested and the calculator lines up nicely with the actual results.

If I plug in my stats:

Age 29
Weight 200
Height 6'
Hours sleeping - 8
Hours sitting - 6
Hours light work - 8
Hours moderate work - 1
Hours vigorous work - 1

The calc puts my bmr at over 2100. So my 10xBW would have underestimated slightly. Last I had my BMR tested, it came in at 2080.

I have been going between around 1700-2300 calories/day and losing consistently, so all in all i agree it is about finding out what works for you and constantly revising your goals.
Click to expand...

And not to throw a wrinkle into things... but hardly anyone is accurate with their calorie intake. With all the software and such floating around you'd think we'd very easily have a relatively close estimate but that hasn't been supported by the literature. One you factor in the poor labeling of various food products, the outdated energy measurements we call calories which are suspect in themselves, variability among different subsets of nutrients and compare all of this with just how bad humans seem to be at keeping tabs... everything is a guess at best and that's why I'm always hesitant to spend any time talking about what calories to start with unless people are just looking to labcoat a bit... which I'm totally fine with.

Because as you noted, it's the process that matters. Not pinpointing numbers that are pretty much impossible to pinpoint to begin with.

Check out this abstract:



Even dietitians aren't great at recording.

And here are some more that surprise some folks:



















 
shygemini said:
so you would start me at 2700 calories/day?
Click to expand...

And just one other quick anecdote.

I'm currently working with a woman who's 395 lbs. She gets in about 30 minutes of exercise each day. Some with me. Some on her own. I have to trust that she's doing it on her own... but she's motivated.

Given that she's not getting an hour per day paired with the fact that she's not extremely active outside of exercise, I assumed her maintenance to be 12.

That would put her maintenance at 4700+ calories.

I dropped that by 30% leaving her at around 3300 calories per day.

The math would put her at over 2 lbs of fat loss per week assuming 3500 calories in a pound of fat.

Just wanted to exemplify what goes through my head when I'm dealing with someone.

Thanks for the conversation though... I'm enjoying it.
 
Thanks for the reply steve...i appreciate the time you took in writing it.

just a couple quick point (company staying with me so not much time to reply):

my whole point with starting this topic was to say that the equations are not accurate for those who are obese. which you mentioned in your reply...so we agree :)

i appreciate all the articles ....i've read many of them before (as i am in the field) however I will check out the others when I get a chance :)

and i definitely am aware that recording of calorie intake is inaccurate...however gaining an awareness of what one eats, which can start through calorie counting, is certainly important to being successful in weight loss and a healthy lifestyle. in general one can state that your calorie count is likely underestimated by around 10% (at least), which i account for in the amount i eat (by overestimating some things). it isn't perfect, but its the best one can do outside of eating in a controlled laboratory setting.
 
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