Formal education. Why?

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Eric L

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Ok- first off I am not trying to insult anyone. Maybe because of the fact that I've never had any formal education beyond part time college that I am biased - maybe you can tell me this. This is purely discussion and I really want opinions on this.

What I'd like to discuss is this...

When you can buy books/audio books/courses written by the top Doctors on this planet and when you can read books from people with PhD's and then surround yourself with the proper life experiences with a fraction of the cost and time, why would one hand the equivalent sum of money of a house to an institution to do it for you instead?

Is it for the connections and networking? One can do this easily outside college, but obviously it would be even more easy if you took some formal education (you would be surrounded by connections). But, honestly, if I wanted to make connections, the fact of being in college or not would not matter to me or anyone else IMO.

Is it for better retention? I think that if you study memory, psychology and active listening/reading that you would not need to go through tests and exams to prove your high level of retention.

Is it just to make friends who have the same interests? This is obvious, life is too short, by going to college you would obviously make friends fast as making any decent connection with a person requires common ground and what better place than in a class surrounded by link-minded people.

Deep down, the only good thing (saying only not as in not worth it, just indicating) is for making friends.

All the other things we can do with a fraction of the cost and time, IMO.

I am talking about this because I have some long term objectives and need to study a good number of things to make them happen, I am deciding whether or not to self-educate or to go for formal education. Your opinions will help me greatly and I look forward to them.

If it's any help I could list what my objectives are through a list of what courses I beleive I need to take. Don't be shy, ask
 
Interesting & good question. I answered that question when I was 19 (46 now) and I had unversity education offered free through my government job in Australia. I learned I found drip feed education boring so I abandoned the degree in preference for self training which involved reading 500 plus books & other materials for 20 years.

Upside:
1. My knowledge is always current.
2. I never felt I could rest on my laurels.
3. I worked hard to compensate.
4. I took jobs that would advance my skills not just my wealth.

Result:
1. I have owned, built & run 3 successful companies in 3 countries.
2. I am now an expert in my field.
3. I am often a guest lecturer at top flight Universities.
3. I have been published in a number of magazines.
4. I am confident I can nut my way through most problems.
5. I have a habit of learning so I continue to learn even now.
6. I still run my own business.

I don't think formal education is the only way to succeed in life. In fact, I think for some people can be a constraint.

If you are highly motivated, willing to learn, want to learn in your own way, able to adapt, can use your environment & knowledge to your advantage then you will succeed no matter who or what you are.

I wish you the best of luck Eric L!
 
I'd add a few things:

1. Working with someone in the field allows for a back and forth and very specific answers to questions that may not be addressed in a book.
2. Unless you're in a field where your expertise can be measured, people will need to trust that you've educated yourself. I wouldn't want a doctor who said, 'trust me, I've read a lot of books'. He may be just as good or better, but I wouldn't hire him.
3. How do you know what you don't know? Professors and schools can provide you with things you might not think of, so you'd overlook the book or course. Why did I take business law for a marketing degree? I probably wouldn't have on my own, but it's useful.

Just a thought.
 
Fair points DEF. I'm not saying either way is right.

As an employer I am more interested in a persons attitude and what they can do rather than their qualifications. I think the way a person got their qualifications can say more about them than the qualification. My partner funded his way through 2 degrees including pure maths. That meant living on the bread line for 5 years!

So, I would add that the process a person goes through to get any sort of training (other than specific professions such as medical, engineering, etc) can be more interesting than the training itself. It can demonstrate self commitment, willingness to work, initiative and, at times, sheer grit.

There is no right or wrong way but whatever path you choose can say much about you.

And good for you for gaining further skills when you thought you needed them! :action3:

PS I also note from my last post that I clearly can't count...oops, back to pre-school for me!!!
 
If you don't have a formal degree it is vedry difficult to prove to a prospective employer that you have put in the time and effort to educate yourself. So many people don't have the work ethic to do independent study, they spend thier time drinking beer and/or smoking dope, a formal degree at least proves you have put in the effort. There is a Professional Engineer program in the US that allows you to take exams to prove your professional capabilities in a technical area. Even if you already have a formal degree in engineering you must pass that exam if you are designing things that are considered potential safety hazards (bridges or building that could fall down and kill people, power distribution systems that could electricute people, etc.).

Many times if you don't have a formal degree you will not even get the oppportunity to speak to a potential employer, since some functionary or even computer program will screen out your resume if you don't list a formal degree. Even for postions that don't require a formal degree, I would give preference to someone with a formal degree because they have proved they have the preserverence and talent to at least complete something non-trivial. Remeber in todays economy most job postings get literally thousands of applications. You have to have something that separates you from the mob.

On another note, getting a formal degree in a non-technical or non-job related field may be almost worthless. I know many people who got degrees in (excuse me, I am not denigrating any of these fields as not being worthy of advanced study or fascinating and mind enriching pursuits, but just being practical here) English, Communications, Drama, History, Political Science etc. at a cost of many hunderds of thousands of dollars and the only work they can find is a minumium wage job at the local box store.
 
I'd like to thank you all. This was all very helpful.

I'm kind of in a life transition...I basically took myself out of the negative, crossed the neutral zone and finally made my way into the mind set I need to be in to start taking the steps that I need to take to get what I want.

I have such a high drive right now that working for my boss seems likes a complete and total bore. I seem to be working on trivial things all the time now and it's making me insane. I know there are things we should be working on to make this company better but I just don't know how to approach this yet. My time will come and I am working on it.

I relate to the fact that going to college would indeed feel like I'm being held back or slowed down in a way. I like doing things at my own pace, in my own time and in my own environment. I'm not slow - just flexible and the result is me learning faster than I would if I we're in college.

Spinner1964, you seem like you did what I want to do - I'm open minded, if you think there is something I should know and if you have the time and will to tell me - I'm listening. I'm all ears - enough of this closed minded way of thinking.
 
Professionalization.. it's a lot about having papers on the knowledge you have so people don't just have to take your word for having read a lot.

With a lot of things it's also hard to get on your own. I go to college and study human movement science, but I would consider myself self taught.. I always read before the lectures and pretty much knew everything they talked about. But one thing that has made my knowledge much greater is the resources of the university: I get free access to most journals I need so I can keep up on the research. Also, I see that a lot of people who don't have an education thinks that educating yourself means reading articles on T-nation..

Though, from my perspective things are a bit different given the fact that university education in Norway is pretty much free (we pay like 10 bucks per semester.. probably less and everyone gets a student loan from the gov so we can afford housing and food)

And of course, access to knowledgeable people, both professors and others in your class. You get to know people who want to learn the same thing as you, which is good since you get into a social group where everyone is keen on learning.

That being said, if what you want isn't something you need a degree for, then you don't need one. It depends a lot on what you want to do. But at least as a first time job seeker I would want to have formal education. As you have had a lot of jobs and such then your performance in those jobs and not the education you took 10 years ago will be what matters.
 
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If you are going to be self-employed, self-teaching may very well be the way to go.

If you are going to work for someone, odds are that they will want you to have some sort of secondary education (depending on the field, of course).

I don't think a secondary degree is as widely necessary as employers seem to think it is, but I think it shows employers that you have the ability to see something through and hit some long term goals that they can relate to. I guess maybe a college degree easily shows you have some sort of drive and stability, whereas self-taught knowledge may be harder to demonstrate.

Hopefully that makes some sense. Best of luck with whatever you decide,

Dave
 
formal education can mean a lot of things though. I consider several of the personal training certifications "higher education", especially the NSCA-CSCS since you need a 4-year degree to even start that certification process.

by the same token, an intensive weeklong Microsoft 'bootcamp' training and certification is a powerful thing to have on your resume.
 
Thanks again everyone.

I'm not in a position to worry about first time employment or reputation, it is already made with my current employer and amongst our many clients. When ever the phone rings, the call, most of the time, is for me - regardless of what is is.

Basically, I was always a nerd with computers - I can do anything with them, I used to teach my teachers in school and no one ever thought me anything with them- then I went to college out of a simple interest in welding. I went to part time college for welding and had the opportunity to have a really good teacher, he is one of our clients now and I still get to talk to him often and we help each other. Basically what I mean to say is that the reputation part and the professionalization part of my life is completed, people know me and I have references and I have the capability to make connections regardless of these things one way or another.

All my doubts have been addressed, thanks everyone :biggrinsanta:
 
Hey Eric L. Your posts give some insight into you - you see need for improvement in business, your clients know you get the job done indicating a delivery focus (that's why they call you), you have knack for computers, the self motivation to learn about them and you seem to have an analytical mind with a willingness to reach out for what you want or need from people plus drive & ambition.

I am from an older generation than you and the job market was very different back then. But even then people strongly believed the only way ahead was with a degree of some sort. I believe academic learning is only one of the keys to success but the atrributes I listed above are what can take you anywhere you want to go in life.

Not all fields require or even have academic qualification - Programme & Project Management, various IT capabilities, Sales (of many types of products), Change Management, Business Analysis, Process Re-engineering, Business Architecture, Business Design etc, etc. Many of these fields are evolving and although some accreditation can be gained (i.e. Six Sigma, MSP, APM, Prince II etc) they are not proving to be the panacea but expensive short courses.

My best advice to you is to work what you are good at (I've tried to give you some insight above), work where you want to go in the long term (financially, skill wise, etc.) and go and work with the people who can already do it well. But if you happen to want to be a doctor, lawyer, etc then yes, you will need the qualifications.

Right now you seem to have the energy and nowhere to put it. You need a game plan and a willingness to do some time while you learn. For example, if you want to be in business for yourself then work in a small business and learn how to run one (I did that myself).

The one thing I did not mention is that I am only expert in my field because I have delivered it successfully for nearly 30 years now. I am a guest lecturer at University because I provide students with the practitioners view - not the academic view. I learn best by doing not studying.

There are lots of ways to 'skin the cat' and I think there are still ways to achieve without following the academic path. The world always has use for good quality, hard working & smart people.

Hope all that helps and if you want my website then please contact me privately as I don't want to publish that here.

All the best, Sue
 
To answer the original question, I think it's very job-specific. If there's another in which you can legally get the same job, then formal education isn't necessary (but still doesn't hurt the CV). Nonetheless, I feel the need to use my dad as an example here. He doesn't have a formal education, in fact he never even finished high school. He's very good at his job, and holds a senior position. People with university educations come in and get jobs beneath him...and until about 2 years ago (after about 20 years of him working with the company) they got better pay than him. Why? Because a piece of paper said they're more qualified than he is.

There are other careers where licensing is required to perform the job at hand, and without a formal education, you often can't obtain a licence, even if you have the knowledge required. It's not an inherently fair system, and oftentimes one institution will give you that piece of paper saying you know how to do your job when you're not even half as educated as someone graduating from the same course at another institution (classic Australian fitness industry example: people who've studied through AIF [3 month course which is easy to pass] vs people who've studied through a TAFE or Institute of Technology [1 year course which is very difficult to pass]). But it's some form of tangible evidence that you know what you're doing.
 
I get that.

But the way I see it: If you are part of a system then you are working for someone. If the system isn't fair- you can make your own way. You call the shots and even if you make less who gives a ****; you are in control.

I am willing to bet that your Dad could make a business out of his own experiences and be twice as happy for it.

The money isn't what makes him happy, it's the accomplishments he gets when he get's the job done.

Good day.
 
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