Chad Waterbury

very interesting. i always thought that you have to push it to some point of fatigue for growth. never knew it was aalot about all this recruitment and speed.

i think you can grow up to be...uhh whatever chad waterbury is :p
 
I guess this article is a really complicated way to tell us what the biggest and strongest people have already told us. (though it is rooted in science as opposed to experience, which is why it is complicated.)

Bill Kazmaier rarely trains to failure. His concept is high volume of work, short rest, and strong reps. This is from his training books back in the late 70's and early 80's.

Paul Anderson did the same thing. (though applied differently) And that was back in the 50's.

We could go farther back into history, but I think I made my point.

So the concept is not new and has been used by some of the strongest people of all time. So we can say that there is validity to what Chad is saying.

I don't believe lifting as fast as possible (without compromising form) is any real benefit(IOW,will make a real world difference.)
If the weight is heavy enough, the body will adjust and recruit all fibers as needed. Remember though, I say this with muscle fiber recruitment as muscle fiber recruitment as my ONLY reasoning.

Start believing there is a benefit. The nervous system can recruit an amount muscle fibers when lifting a 600lbs max. You can also move 300lbs fast and use 600 lbs of force to move the weight. The difference is huge.

With the faster lift you are recruiting the same amount of muscle fibers as during a 600lb max. Since the 300lb lift is faster you are training your body to recruit 600lb worth of muscle fibers in a shorter period of time. The value of this is great.

Getting in that last 2-3 reps where its slow is important. As when the slow twitch fibers are activated, The form of energy which is most heavily used. Is blood Triglycerides. Meaning, once we hit that "slow" period we "IN THEORY". Could increase fatty acid metabolism due to the need to fuel these slow twitch muscle fibers, The ideal source of fuel for type 1Mf.

You are better off skipping the last 2-3 reps on these sets and doing 1 - 2 more sets. The work is higher. The benefit is greater. The chance of injury is lower.

For hypertrophy ALONE, we might not need to push past those final slow reps. However, with weight loss as ones main goal. I think those last reps are very important.

I have known many BB, fitness, and figure competitors who do not train to failure. Ever.

The girls lift fast and superset with a lot of body weight exercises. The goal is to keep the workout pace high so that their heart rate stays up and energy expenditure is higher throughout the workout.

The guys don't train to failure because the have a vested interest in staying healthy and not getting injured trying reps that will not necessarily get them the result they want.

I know, you are talking about weight loss. Ok, I will not let any of my clients with the goal of losing weight train to failure. (or even close to it) It is unnecessary at best, and does not help them to reach a goal faster.

(I used the BB, figure example because these people cut fat for a living)

It has been known for quite some time that training to failure on a regular basis leads to stagnation and injury.

very interesting. i always thought that you have to push it to some point of fatigue for growth. never knew it was aalot about all this recruitment and speed.

You do have to push to some point of fatigue. Remember that fatigue is not measured by failure. 4 sets of 12 reps with 30-45 sec of rest is fatiguing. Size generally comes from higher volume.

Watch any bodybuilders video. They are not straining and straining to get the last rep. Their reps are rhythmic and consistent. Just because you are not training to failure does not mean that work is not being done.
 
yes. makes a lot of sense. which is also why using a lighter weight and getting perfect reps is more important than heavy weights that you do slower and at max intensity?
 
yes. makes a lot of sense. which is also why using a lighter weight and getting perfect reps is more important than heavy weights that you do slower and at max intensity?

Yes and no.

Perfect reps just means that you are working all the muscles you are supposed to be working. With heavy weights, you can lift 100kg but with bad technique you'd be better off lifting 50.
 
I guess this article is a really complicated way to tell us what the biggest and strongest people have already told us. (though it is rooted in science as opposed to experience, which is why it is complicated.)

Bill Kazmaier rarely trains to failure. His concept is high volume of work, short rest, and strong reps. This is from his training books back in the late 70's and early 80's.

Paul Anderson did the same thing. (though applied differently) And that was back in the 50's.

We could go farther back into history, but I think I made my point.

So the concept is not new and has been used by some of the strongest people of all time. So we can say that there is validity to what Chad is saying.



Start believing there is a benefit. The nervous system can recruit an amount muscle fibers when lifting a 600lbs max. You can also move 300lbs fast and use 600 lbs of force to move the weight. The difference is huge.

With the faster lift you are recruiting the same amount of muscle fibers as during a 600lb max. Since the 300lb lift is faster you are training your body to recruit 600lb worth of muscle fibers in a shorter period of time. The value of this is great.
Not sure what you mean here. None the less, Are you saying if BBa is benching 200pounds at a speed which he feels good at, where is form is perfect. WILL be at a disadvantage, when it comes to benching more, to his twin brother BBb who is also benching 200 pounds but only at a faster pace?


You are better off skipping the last 2-3 reps on these sets and doing 1 - 2 more sets. The work is higher. The benefit is greater. The chance of injury is lower.
Again, I'm talking in "theory" not in the actual "real world", hence the big "IN THEORY". Meaning "IN THEORY" it could be beneficial to hit those final reps for fat loss alone. WITHOUT the care of injury, stagnation or anything els. Just the statistical difference in fat utilized as energy.

I have known many BB, fitness, and figure competitors who do not train to failure. Ever.
Lol, Who is debating the point of hitting failure in every single set?
The girls lift fast and superset with a lot of body weight exercises. The goal is to keep the workout pace high so that their heart rate stays up and energy expenditure is higher throughout the workout.

The guys don't train to failure because the have a vested interest in staying healthy and not getting injured trying reps that will not necessarily get them the result they want.

I know, you are talking about weight loss. Ok, I will not let any of my clients with the goal of losing weight train to failure. (or even close to it) It is unnecessary at best, and does not help them to reach a goal faster.
I'm talking about it "IN THEORY" such as in a lab setting where the amount of fat burned would be monitored between the two. Where one is pushing past those slow reps (which bTW does not mean failure) against someone who is not. It only makes sense given T1Mf energy source. That the person who is pushing those slow reps would have (no matter how small) an increased amount of "fat burned" (very simple terms).
(I used the BB, figure example because these people cut fat for a living)

It has been known for quite some time that training to failure on a regular basis leads to stagnation and injury.
I didn't say failure, And I was speaking from the point of loosing weight alone. And its affect on the body. Never did I state its of actual practical use in the real world. Just because the weight is slowing down does not mean your hitting failure. And if you remember the question at hand is STOPING at those final couple of reps. Which case I believe we are in agreement that they are likely not totally necessary to the bodybuilder.

But for example, if your doing 3x12 If your slowing down by 10 rep, are you saying going for those final two reps so long as its not a complete struggle WILL lead, without doubt, to stagnation and injury? Besides just because the weight slows down does not mean you are going to hit failure. Its possible the weight would start slowing at rep 10 but one might be able to continue to push it for to 15 reps. Had he/she stopped at 12, it would not have been failure because He/she might still have been able to push more out. Regardless of speed.

No one is debating whether training to failure each time is bad. We all know it is. I don't believe I made mention to training to failure so I'm not sure why you bring it up...


You do have to push to some point of fatigue. Remember that fatigue is not measured by failure. 4 sets of 12 reps with 30-45 sec of rest is fatiguing.
Size generally comes from higher volume.
Again, I don't think that was being discussed.

Watch any bodybuilders video. They are not straining and straining to get the last rep. Their reps are rhythmic and consistent. Just because you are not training to failure does not mean that work is not being done.
Agreed, but again not sure why you bring this up.

That's the whole point of the articles. That those final struggling reps are not needed for hypertrophy alone. I think your moving away from the topic at hand...You are trying to comment on my "IN THEORY" parts. Which is a moot point because it is not a suggestion, or anything in the sense that should be taken literal except in a laboratory setting.
 
this really makes working out less stressfull. if i am never going to work to failure, its pretty much all fun for me.

so for example.
if i was doing chinups.
and if i max out all 3 sets going normal speed, i can do 13, 8, 6 = 27

would it be better to quickly do 4 sets of 7,7,7,7=28?

its actually more volume and its much less stressful IMO. i actually did both of these. i just dont know which is "better".
 
would it be better to quickly do 4 sets of 7,7,7,7=28?

you may even do 5 sets of 7. 35 reps. The goal is the most work possible while you are as fresh as possible.

You will find stagnation sooner if you do 13, 8, 6 = 27.
 
Not sure what you mean here. None the less, Are you saying if BBa is benching 200pounds at a speed which he feels good at, where is form is perfect. WILL be at a disadvantage, when it comes to benching more, to his twin brother BBb who is also benching 200 pounds but only at a faster pace?

What I mean is that the same lifter is at an advantage if he trains 300lbs fast and also trains a 600lb max. If you train fast you get a great effect on the nervous system without repeatedly stressing the body with heavy weights.

Training volume will be higher. Because of the speed muscle is recruited in a shorter amount of time. Which will have a positive effect when training the 600lb max. So, after a time of speed training you will be able do your 600lb max, but recruit the muscle it take to complete the lift in less time. Making the lift easier and raising the potential to lift heavier weights.

Again, I'm talking in "theory" not in the actual "real world", hence the big "IN THEORY". Meaning "IN THEORY" it could be beneficial to hit those final reps for fat loss alone. WITHOUT the care of injury, stagnation or anything els. Just the statistical difference in fat utilized as energy.

I guess when you used the phrase -

Getting in that last 2-3 reps where its slow is important

It seems to indicate training to failure. The word "last" and "2-3" specifically. That is why I brought up training to failure. If taken out of context, my bad.

You are trying to comment on my "IN THEORY" parts. Which is a moot point because it is not a suggestion, or anything in the sense that should be taken literal except in a laboratory setting.

I always have trouble grasping the term "In Theory" because (at least in the fitness world) it tends to mean "stuff that does not work." I categorize things by -
  1. Does Not Work
  2. Works OK
  3. Works Good
This may be a flaw of mine. When training it seems the best way to think.
 
so the goal is the most work as possible while i am as fresh as possible?

uhh i dont completely understand. can you explain more please?

so why not do 6x7? or 7x7? im sure i could fit in more work in my workouts if i superset with rest.

is this just a matter of different set/rep schemes? i have read from waterbury about keeping total reps under 50. like, the most volume he reccomend for size is a 5x10. do you agree?
 
What I mean is that the same lifter is at an advantage if he trains 300lbs fast and also trains a 600lb max. If you train fast you get a great effect on the nervous system without repeatedly stressing the body with heavy weights.

Training volume will be higher. Because of the speed muscle is recruited in a shorter amount of time. Which will have a positive effect when training the 600lb max. So, after a time of speed training you will be able do your 600lb max, but recruit the muscle it take to complete the lift in less time. Making the lift easier and raising the potential to lift heavier weights.

Lol, Sorry george. I don't know why, But for some reason I am having the hardest time grasping this.
If your lifting 300 fast or if your lifting 300 normal pace. Your still recruiting the same amount of muscle fibers. And I find I tire alot quicker If i rush my reps to my top speed leaving me unable to finish as many reps. I simply do not understand the basic throught that lifting faster makes you stronger, to a REAL world affect that is.



I guess when you used the phrase -



It seems to indicate training to failure. The word "last" and "2-3" specifically. That is why I brought up training to failure. If taken out of context, my bad.

Right, I see now where you got that. If My goal is 10 reps and I start to slow down at 8 but and determined to finish those "last two reps". Those may be slow but If I can push another to 11 or 12 then finishing those "Last 2-3 reps" isn't failure;).

I always have trouble grasping the term "In Theory" because (at least in the fitness world) it tends to mean "stuff that does not work." I categorize things by -
  1. Does Not Work
  2. Works OK
  3. Works Good
This may be a flaw of mine. When training it seems the best way to think.
True true, I'll take more care next time to be more "precise" with my words. I tend to not "proof" read what I write at times. Leads to confusion on what I mean...

I hate it when I have nothing left to add outside of the quotes...
 
If your lifting 300 fast or if your lifting 300 normal pace. Your still recruiting the same amount of muscle fibers.

This is where you are missing it. To move a weight faster you have to recruit more muscle fiber.

Think about running. It takes higher motor recruitment to sprint than to jog. The difference is speed. Weightlifting is the same. Faster = recruitment of more muscle. This is Why -

If i rush my reps to my top speed leaving me unable to finish as many reps.

You fatigue faster because you ARE recruiting more muscle. By training faster you are increasing the rate of force development.

I simply do not understand the basic throught that lifting faster makes you stronger, to a REAL world affect that is.

Powerlifters have taken advantage of speed training for the last 25 years (at least.) Having a max squat day and a dynamic squat day. On the dynamic squat day they will use about 50% of their max with the focus on moving the weight as fast as possible.

Olympic Lifting is the same thing. Except the Olympic Lifts themselves serve as the Dynamic Lifts. (since it is impossible to complete a clean or snatch slowly) Squatting is generally done heavy.

The 2 methods (max effort and dynamic effort) are always working together to produce a better result in both sports.
 
Another way to look at speed training is this.

What is the definition of power?

If answered correctly.

How could training at higher speeds produce real world results?
 
My take,
All in all, If you take two people whos 1rm is 300 pounds. Lets take a squat for example. If BBa squats 300 pounds at a pace of 2-2-2 what he would consider normal. compared to BBb who squats his oneRM of 300 pounds at 1-1-2. But does NOT sacrifice form or use momentum(most people do however when aiming for a higher speed) . Both are equally using the same amount of muscle fibers.

Now take both same BB but have them squat 150 pounds. If BB one squats slower while BB two squats that same weight faster. BB2 will likely recruit more IIb fibers, while BBone recruits mostly IIA fibers.

So Yes, When not going for ones ONErm. The speed of the lift can dictate to some degree the MF use. But when going for the ONErm, regardless of speed. both will be recruiting the same amount of fibers possible to lift the weight.

If anything, the BB who move the weight the fastest is more likely to use momentum and focus less on the negative phase of the lift. Which has been shown to be the greatest factor in hypertrophy, because this is the point which the muscle is broken down the most. Even more so then during the positive phase of the lift.

So in conclusion, When going for 1RM the speed of the lift will change little if any the muscle fibers recruited, because the max has ALREADY been reached to achieve a 1RM. But, anything under the 1rm can to some degree change the use.
 
power is speed and strenght, right Georgen? Thats why i always say your not strong if you squat for example 500 lbs, your powerful. Because you could have the strenght to squat 500 lbs, but if you dont have the speed, you would just fall down because you couldnt assemble your 500 lbs strenght fast enough.

and its usually the concentric speed everyone wants to be as fast as possible (even though chad says eccentric speed should be fast too (but controlled) You can do a slow controlled eccentric and a fast exploding concentric..
 
(Silent) - You are right. You do not get it. You are missing simple principles that have been proven through EMG testing over the past 60 years.

power is speed and strenght, right Georgen?

Power = FORCE * VELOCITY

You are essentially right with your 500lb squat example. A lot of people miss max lifts because they do not lift heavy weights with the "intention" of speed. Even if the bar does not move actually fast, the lifter will recruit more muscle in a shorter period of time trying to lift the bar fast regardless of weight. This will increase the likelihood of making a max lift. (increasing the FORCE applied to the bar)

This is also where training seed reps at about 250lbs will hep the same lifter. Because he can put 500lbs of FORCE on the 250lb bar to move it faster. This will increase the VELOCITY and create a higher power output. (Because of the speed, the power output will generally be much higher than that of the max lift. This is because the speed of the max lift is slower)

and its usually the concentric speed everyone wants to be as fast as possible (even though chad says eccentric speed should be fast too (but controlled) You can do a slow controlled eccentric and a fast exploding concentric.

Although this is true. A fast eccentric movement will increase the speed of the concentric movement even more. This is because the FORCE it takes to change the direction of the weight is very high. During this time you can increase the motor recruitment significantly over doing a slower eccentric movement.

Because of the higher motor recruitment during the amortization phase the concentric phase of the movement will be much faster.

This is one (of many) reasons that powerlifters use bands as a training tool. Since, during a squat, the bands pull down faster than gravity, the eccentric loading is higher, and this increases the motor unit recruitment.

In a final statement. (directed at (Silent) :boxing_smiley:) FORCE must be increased in order to move any given object at a higher VELOCITY. Otherwise the VELOCITY would stay the same. There is only one way for the human body to produce more FORCE. That is to recruit more muscle to get the job done. Plain and simple.
 
Georgen, faster eccentric, wont that maximise the "muscle stretch" effect? Is that what you are saying? The reason its so much harder to wait a coupple of secs before lifting a weight up again is that you eliminate the muscle stretch reflex, right? (also the fact that you hold the weight still for a coupple of secs ofcource) The muscles are like a rubber band, when you go down in a squat, force is stored and you can easier get out of the hole because of this effect, am i right? And doing the eccentric faster, will make the effect bigger?
 
Georgen, faster eccentric, wont that maximise the "muscle stretch" effect?

Stretch reflex is more of a plyometric phenomenon. Generally the amortization phase is not fast enough during weightlifting. That is why plyos are done with no weight. The impact creates a true stretch reflex.

The reason its so much harder to wait a coupple of secs before lifting a weight up again is that you eliminate the muscle stretch reflex, right?

The increased motor recruitment comes from slowing the weight to a stop. And can be held for up to 3 or 4 seconds. So even with stopping at the bottom for a couple sec, you will still be able to take advantage of the increased motor recruitment.

The reason the effect lasts seconds is because it is an increase in motor recruitment and not elastic energy. This is also why a powerlifter who does box squats for speed can get a positive training effect. He can break up the eccentric and concentric muscle actions, while still taking advantage of an increase in motor recruitment.

The muscles are like a rubber band, when you go down in a squat, force is stored and you can easier get out of the hole because of this effect, am i right?

Muscle itself is not like a rubber band. It is the connective tissue. And it is like a very tight rubber band. When taking advantage of a true stretch reflex it is kinetic energy in the connective tissue. This is why when doing plyo exercises the rule is to let the feet hit the ground for the shortest amount of time possible. Any lingering and you do lose the elastic energy.

Your nervous system can maintain an increase in stimulus longer than connective tissue.
 
In a final statement. (directed at (Silent) :boxing_smiley:) FORCE must be increased in order to move any given object at a higher VELOCITY. Otherwise the VELOCITY would stay the same. There is only one way for the human body to produce more FORCE. That is to recruit more muscle to get the job done. Plain and simple.

Didn't I agree with you already?
 
Didn't I agree with you already?

I did not think so. Because in your last post you said.....

Both are equally using the same amount of muscle fibers.

and....

But when going for the ONErm, regardless of speed. both will be recruiting the same amount of fibers possible to lift the weight.
 
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