cardio/lift or lift/cardio?

B

Bangtail

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I thought about it over the weekend, and decided my I should probably just choose to gain size, or lose body fat. I mean I'm not overly flubby. Just need to tone or some such thing. I'm 23, 5'11, and 155, at mmm 16ish percent body fat .

So, if losing body fat is my main priority, what should I be doing? Jogging five days a week? And lifiting two? Bah. Changing my plan now feels like I've just wasted the last five months. But, I mean what good is muscle if its under jiggly skin ;)

I'm also worried that running more will destroy whatever muscle I did gain in the last five months (not alot).

And is 30 mins, averageing 2.5 to 3mi enough a day? Using a heartrate monitor when I run I'm told that my heart is staying in the 83+ percentile zone (176 avg bpm). I've read that that means only 5% of calories burned is from fat? I'm not running merely jogging said distance. I assume my heart is working that hard because its out of shape, and once it begins to get more inline with the intensity of the run, it will begin to lower bpm into the fat burning zone? Any of this ring true?

Thanks guys
 
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Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Dude, don't feel like changing your workout creates a waste fo the last 5 months. Workouts are deigned to be altered! You need to evaluate what is working and adjust accordingly.

Try 4 days of cardio and 3 of weights. If you want to burn more fat than add muscle, then cardio first. Weights first if you want more muscle than fat burn. BTW - the more muscle, the more your body burns fat when it isn't working out.
 
Maybe:

mon jog
wed HIIT
fri jog
sat HIIT?

tues weights?
thurs weight?

I hate being dim witted. hah.

I mean. The more i think about it the more lowering bf is taking priority. So tip the scale more so in the cardio direction? but keep a few weight sessions?

Or does it make more sense to not worry about weights for now, focus on bf%, as though im marathon training, and pick up weights again after I've reached my goal of bf?
 
I'd reccomend bulking first. 155's pretty light, and at 16% B.F you're hardly fat. It's a lot easier to put on the muscle under some fat than it is on a really skinny body. I'd do a couple of months of serious bulking, loads of weights and eating everything you can find, then do all your cutting in one. It's your call though.
 
Bangtail, what are you trying to do? Do you want to bulk up for a reason? Do you want to lower body fat for a reason? Are you an athlete? Do you play any sports? The reason I ask is this: if you are doing it simply for appearance, you may want to bulk up a bit. Your body fat will go down as you put on more muscle. You dont have to do much cardio, 1 day a week will suffice, and, as someone said, EAT!
Add the HIIT training to help get the body fat down as well.
If you want to be in good health, do more cardio to keep the heart and lungs healthy and do some lifting 3 or 4 days a week.
If you play sports, run some, lift some, hiit some, plyometrics some, play basketball some, etc...
depends what you are looking to do.
Sorry if this doesnt give you the answer you wanted, but I'd like to know what YOU want!
 
I just want to LOOK better. Or at least what the generealized definition of better is. I've been doing full body workouts three days a week. And cardio 2-3 days a week for nearly six months now. I was 150 when I started and 155 now, with NO body fat drop. I mean. I'm not sure if im doing anything. I guess I'm just bummed out at the lack of visual advances. I eat well. All whole grains. Tuna. Turkey. Flax oils. Everything good. The only vice I have is coffee.

Doesn't that seem like not alot of gain for five/six months? I've been working hard too. And I'm at the point where I feel like I've really gone as far as I can with wondering if I'm doing something wrong.

As lame as it sounds I like the bodies on MENS HEALTH MAG pages. lean bodies. compact muscle. nothing huge, little body fat. and I'm lost as to how to get there.

meh i think the rain is making me whiney ;(

as a side note: eating makes me nervous. i mean i understand the concept behind eating everything you can get you hands on in order to fuel muscle/weight gain. and then cutting afterward. i totally get that. just im terrified of gaining fat fat. i used to weight 240 when i was 16/17, and the last thing i want is to start heading back into the territory.
 
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heres my honest advice. at 5''11 and 155 at 16%bf your not holding alot of muscle. even if your bf% was 10% for someone whose 5'11'' thats not much muscle mass. but that being said i wouldnt try to reduce your bf% first. id go ahead and go on a solid mass gaining program for a couple months. after that re evaluate yourself . if youve gained some good mass with very little fat gain continue to bulk. if youve gained some good mass but with more fat then youd like, start a cutting program for 2 months. repeat till your happy with your size and bf%. referring to others commments someone said going on a bulking percentage would reduce bf%. this would only be true if your putting on muscle at a faster rate then fat, which is hard to do because you need large amounts of calories to bulk which in turn can lead to bf% gain as well.so dont try to do both at once because its hard to put on muscle while reducing bf%. especially when he suggest cardio only once a week, your asking for fat gain right there. i would do less then 3 while bulking. dont worry though as long as you get alot of calories from clean foods (whey protein, chicken breast, turkey, fish, healthy fats, etc.)your fat gain will be minimal.
 
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It's been proven in studies that more calories are burned by lifting before cardio, and that also heightens the intensity you lift at.
 
Alright, well the concencus (sp?) seems to be to bulk up some then cut if my body fat is too high. Can someone give me the genereal rules for bulking aside from eat as much and as clean as I can. Keep doing cardio on alt days? I'm using 20 pound dumbells, that I can lift 14ish times before I being to falter, should I use heavier?

I'd use the forum search button, but can't seem to find one.
 
mreik said:
It's been proven in studies that more calories are burned by lifting before cardio, and that also heightens the intensity you lift at.
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im sorry to disagree with you on your statement. the fact is , yes you might be burning more calories by doing lifting and cardio back to back but doing cardio after a weight workout is counterproductive no matter if your burning calories or not. cardio should be performed on an empty stomach first thing in the morning for 40 to 45 mins at 65 to 75% of your max heart rate. basically all that is is a fast walk with arms pumping( if you cant talk normal your going to hard). others out there might say go longer or harder, but this range is optimal for fat loss. going longer and harder is optimal for endurance. anyway let me explain why doing cardio and weight training is back to back isnt good. mixing aerobics and anarobics has no benefit in building muscle or cutting fat. simply because after weight training your body is primed for replenishment of nutrients and glucose uptake for the repair of muscle damage. why would you want to do cardio immediately and send your body into a catabolic state ? furthermore if you do cardio after weights and then you drink your high carbohyrate and protein drink( standard for raising insulin levels post workout for muscle glycogen uptake and protein transport) you stop lypolisis which makes your cardio pointless, all the while your starving your muscles of post workout nutrition. and there is science to back this.
 
newf said:
Cardio before weight training is recommended for fat loss. By some experts.
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not sure which experts but its counterproductive to muscle gain or fat loss. you may see a reduction in fat or an increase in muscle , but its going to take a long time and you wont have nearly the results. im just stating scientific facts which i have learned over the past 10 years from various readings and reports. so choose, gain muscle and loose fat at a rapid rate or a much slower rate. your choice.
 
my 2 cents:
Lift before cardio
reason: you need to lift at a high intensity to get the most benefits out of a resistance training workout. If you fatigue yourself by doing cardio first, you wont have the energy for a good strength workout.

65-75% of your max HR is NOT optimal for fat loss. It should be higher.

Bangtail, in my opinion, keep doing what your doing-eating well, lifting 3-4 days a week, do some cardio for health. I would add a day (maybe 2) of sprinting.

Find a track or long stretch of flat area. Run as hard as you can for what should be about 5-10 seconds (based on what kind of shape youre in). Rest and repeat. Maybe 6 bouts, progressing to more bouts with less rest between sets.

You can also go intervals on a bike (regular or stationary). warm up 5 minutes, sprint for 10 seconds, go easy for 30-45. Repeat as above.

It's going to happen, especially if the diet is good! It takes a LONG time to put on a good amount of muscle mass. I think you're worrying too much about it. Give it more time; change the routine around.
Thanks for listening, all!
Wes
 
j85rule said:
im sorry to disagree with you on your statement. the fact is , yes you might be burning more calories by doing lifting and cardio back to back but doing cardio after a weight workout is counterproductive no matter if your burning calories or not. cardio should be performed on an empty stomach first thing in the morning for 40 to 45 mins at 65 to 75% of your max heart rate. basically all that is is a fast walk with arms pumping( if you cant talk normal your going to hard). others out there might say go longer or harder, but this range is optimal for fat loss. going longer and harder is optimal for endurance. anyway let me explain why doing cardio and weight training is back to back isnt good. mixing aerobics and anarobics has no benefit in building muscle or cutting fat. simply because after weight training your body is primed for replenishment of nutrients and glucose uptake for the repair of muscle damage. why would you want to do cardio immediately and send your body into a catabolic state ? furthermore if you do cardio after weights and then you drink your high carbohyrate and protein drink( standard for raising insulin levels post workout for muscle glycogen uptake and protein transport) you stop lypolisis which makes your cardio pointless, all the while your starving your muscles of post workout nutrition..
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Actually doing cardio on an empty stomach is completey hurting any muscle gain you've achieved. Your body is sure to go into a catabolic state if exercising on an empty stomach. And the question wasn't wether to do cardio back to back with lifting, it was in which order.

j85rule said:
and there is science to back this.
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Yes there is, do some research.
 
i think you should do the research. your body goes into a catabolic state during sleep anyway. thats why you want to do cardio first thing in the morning on any empty stomach as to not put yourself in a catabolic state twice a day by doing weightraing and cardio back to back( which is what happens if done in conjunction)if your looking to loose fat and retain muscle. if you do it later in the day with weightraining or even earlier as pointed out in my earlier post , when you have your post workout drink/meal your delaying the feeding of your muscles which is gonna hurt your chances of retaining or even building muscle and your also going to blunt lypolisis by raising your insulin with a high carb/protein postworkout drink(which is the proven standard for post workout) which in turn makes your cardio pointless because it shuts down the metabolism of fat. step up with something better. your an amateur, and if you did a little research you might reach your fitness goals one day.
 
oh and in reference to your earlier post that doing cardio before lifting raises your workout intensity, how is that possible when you are now deficient of any carbs/protein which you might have had in your system to fuel your cardio session?
 
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I'll try to sum it up without any name-calling!
:)
It has been shown that running has shown to produce catabolic effects which can lead to muscle degredation and reduction in power. So, ideally, you shouldnt lift immediately after an aerocic workout.

To exhaust all of your carbohydrate stores during an aerobic workout would make for one HELL of a workout!

This all said, long, slow duration aerobic workouts are pretty much a waste of time if you are looking to burn fat.

Lift weights and do some high intensity training, along with a proper diet.

As far as the "do some research" comments, we ALL need to be doing research, because the results are constantly changing! Some people are still under the impression that aerobic exercise is the best means for fat loss or that you burn more fat doing a workout at 65-75% of MHR.
"cant we all just get along?"
:)
 
LOL I think i will just excercise. I'll let my body do whatever it wants after that. I agree intense cardio won't help but personally i do 5 to 7 minutes of cardio before i lift just to get the heart going. And there's nothing wrong with that. :)
 
gymcoch said:
This all said, long, slow duration aerobic workouts are pretty much a waste of time if you are looking to burn fat.

Lift weights and do some high intensity training, along with a proper diet.

As far as the "do some research" comments, we ALL need to be doing research, because the results are constantly changing! Some people are still under the impression that aerobic exercise is the best means for fat loss or that you burn more fat doing a workout at 65-75% of MHR.
"cant we all just get along?"
:)
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totally disagree. i know from experience. i dropped nearly 9% bf in 3.5 months or so. not only that but my lean body mass increased by 2lbs. all of this happened on a program designed to shed bodyfat and maintain musclemass( and i actually gained muscle mass) while doing cardio 7 days a week(no less then 5) first thing in the morning, at 65-75% max heart rate for 40-45 minutes . and everyone whose used the program experiences the same results. so if you think that type of cardio doesnt burn fat fast then you just keep doin what your doin .
 
85-thank you, I will keep doing what I am doing! When I say it's a waste of time, I didnt say that it didnt work. But I'd rather do a couple of high intensity interval training sessions for 20 minutes twice a week than all that cardio. You'll burn more calories this way after your session due to the effects of EPOC, as opposed to the short amount of time after a LSD aerobic session.
May I ask what your background is?
 
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