Are there any intrinsic negatives to a temporarily high BF%?

S

shanks911

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Background: H - 176cm, W - 174lb and bulking... End Goal - Bulk to 185, then cut to 165-170

Problem is that I've bulked a little too quickly, being an endo weight gain is never a problem, it's just fat gain which can get tricky. Basically I've bulked from about 160-174 but I feel I've put on too much fat, waist has gone from 32 to 35+. At a guess I started out around 16-17% BF at 160lb and I'm now at around 25%. Obviously, I could tweak my diet and counter most of the fat gains, but I don't have the time/money to be able to do that right now..

I guess my question is two-fold. And based on any replies I'll decide whether or not to do a quick month-long cut before continuing the bulk.

1) Are there any long term health issues which can arise from having such a high BF % (albeit for a temporary period - perhaps 3-4months)

2) I've noticed a "sluggishness" in my workouts and I suspect that it's the fat gains which are causing this, particularly with bodyweight exercises such as pull-ups. Although from what I have read, having a higher BF% is beneficial for weight training generally? Does anyone have any knowledge on this area?

Thanks.
 
once you have been fat, it's easier to get fat again. If you overeat and gain fat very quickly, the body will make more fat cells (fat cell hyperplasia), when you cut down, the size of the fat cells will reduce, but the number will stay the same (this only happens if you gain a lot of weight or gain weight very quickly). But if you've already done the weight gaining then theres nothing to do about that, and don't worry too much about it as it's really a detail.
 
Where did you hear that? It is possible. I always was under the impression that it could happen all the time, if the body saw the need for more "storage room" for fat.
 
I can't find anything that says adipocyte hyperplasia occurs in grown ups, I can only find something that assumes it.

Adipocyte hyperplasia accounts for the severalfold increase in adipose tissue mass that occurs throughout life, yet the mechanism of adipocyte hyperplasia is unknown
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That seems to assume that it occurs throughout the entire life of a human

Source:

Maybe it's more rapid in the teenage years, then slows down when you get out of adolesence? I'd love for someone who's a bit updated on the research to comment.
 
Adipocyte hyperplasia has been shown to occur at all stages of life within mammals. Mice are often used in many obesity tests in place of humans for obvious "ethical reasons."



Unfortunately there still does not seem to be an established link between adipose cell size and when the body begins creating more fat cells They may occur both one after the other or concurrently.

There is another consideration to quick bulking to such an extent without immediate cutting. 25% body fat is labelled correctly as obesity. In terms of cardiovascular diseases (CVDs), based upon any genetic dispositions, there really isn't a set amount of time being overweight before CVD signs and symptoms may begin. A prime example is type II diabetes, which is based more upon damage to the cell walls due to excess adipose tissue throughout the body, and may occur quite rapidly in some individuals. While not necessarily an impact to you, the longer you remain at such a high body fat percentage, the greater your risks of sustained CVD issues.

There is nothing wrong with bulking, but based upon the standards set forth by pretty much all the major medical and exercise based organizations in this country, you were already over the recommeded level of body fat when you began your bulking program. 16-17% BF may be within the American average, but you have to remember that most Americans are overweight and, while not necessarily obese (BF>25%), are overfat. I would make a concerted effort if I were you to at least dedicate time to a cardio program in order to cut you BF % now and prevent any real issues in the future.
 
Question for you illiniphase4:
By what process does adipocyte hyperplasia occur?
I ask because when I told a friend of mine about it, she said it was impossible due to the fact that adipocytes can't divide themselves. I immediately retorted, asking if it wasn't possible that hyperplasia occured through other means than the cells themselves dividing. Are there cells that are "below" (don't know the needed techniqual term) adipocytes in the differentiating process floating around in the body that can differentiate into adipocytes when the body sees the need?
I don't know what's "below" adipocytes or whatever, but I hope you got the point. Can other cells differentiate into adipocytes to create adipocyte hyerplasia?
 
So at what point does hyperplasia kick in? Around the 20% BF mark or what?

Say I'm around 12% now, if I hit up to 16-18% then returning back down, would that make it easier for me to hit that much body fat in the future?
 
as Illin said
Unfortunately there still does not seem to be an established link between adipose cell size and when the body begins creating more fat cells They may occur both one after the other or concurrently.
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in other words, when it happenes has not been established, but to be on the safe side, try to don't go too much up in BF while you bulk, since you can't "just diet it off afterwards" since there is a great chance that your body will have made more fat cells.
 
Karky said:
Question for you illiniphase4:
By what process does adipocyte hyperplasia occur?
I ask because when I told a friend of mine about it, she said it was impossible due to the fact that adipocytes can't divide themselves. I immediately retorted, asking if it wasn't possible that hyperplasia occured through other means than the cells themselves dividing. Are there cells that are "below" (don't know the needed techniqual term) adipocytes in the differentiating process floating around in the body that can differentiate into adipocytes when the body sees the need?
I don't know what's "below" adipocytes or whatever, but I hope you got the point. Can other cells differentiate into adipocytes to create adipocyte hyerplasia?
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While I'm not sure that simple adipose cell division does not occur (did she have any sources to back up her statement?), there is research out there that suggests fat laden adipose tissue can actually dedifferentiate to form fat cell precursors which become fat cells. While not "cell division" per say, it is the proliferation of multiple fat cells from single fat cells.



There is also research that supports the belief that adipocyte proliferation occurs when metabolic processes are disrupted (possibly by excess fat and metabolic complications???) and fat cells are formed, vice the muscle cells that were developing.


This supports the idea that adipocyte hyperplasia and adipogenesis are capable of occurring both at the same time and independent of one another and could be the reason why researchers are unable to determine and sort of adipocyte hyperplasia cycle (just my own observation). In any event the end result is an increase in the number of fat cells within the body.

It would be interesting to hypothesize that adipocyte hyperplasia through the dedifferentiation of already present adipose tissue could be manipulated into muscle tissue via the method described in the research influencing adipogenesis and myogenesis, which would essentially contradict the scientific physiological norm that fat tissue cannot directly become muscle tissue.
 
Thanks for the reply!
I will read the reply a bit later when I've got time and google all the terms I don't understand, then I'll reply. Thanks for the reply!
 
Curtis said:
So at what point does hyperplasia kick in? Around the 20% BF mark or what?

Say I'm around 12% now, if I hit up to 16-18% then returning back down, would that make it easier for me to hit that much body fat in the future?
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I think it's really going to be different for every individual, based upon metabolism and how and where your body stores it's energy reserves.

That being said, with >25% BF being obese and <15% being normal, there is a pretty decent sized window in which to bulk. I'd probably try and stay under 20%, but that's just my take on it. Like I said before, hyperplasia is only part of the issue here... the early stages of type 2 diabetes do not require BF levels in obese ranges. There are overweight individuals out there under the 25% mark that display signs and symptoms of CVD. That is why when you bulk, you need to have a set bulking goal, closely monitored, all the while supplemented by resistance training and cardio in order to maintain cardiorespiratory health.

Though not outrightly dangerous by any means, properly conducted bulking and cutting is still a bit of a "shock" to the system in that the body is forced to cope with both caloric excess and deficiency, both metabolically and anatomically. Ideally, a male should be in the 7-10% BF range, bulk to 15% remaining within ideal BF ranges, and then cut to the 7-10% BF range. I know we can't all always operate under "ideal" conditions (myself included), but try to limit your bulking and cutting to a 5-7% BF range (but always < 25%), paired with resistance training and cardio, in order to establish a more gradual increase in muscle mass and overall fitness.

That's just my take on it though, I'm sure others may disagree on that, and rightly so. Unfortunately there really isn't a lot of sound scientific research behind the prolonged metabolic and anatomical consequences (both good and bad) to bulking and cutting, either in moderation or excess.
 
what method exactly are you referring to? They say adipocytes might be able to dedifferentiate, I get that, but how would one manipulate fat cells to become muscle cells? Are you saying that someone while the adipocytes are dedifferentiating something would happen to make them into muscle cells?

By "adipocyte hyperplasia through the dedifferentiation"
what do you mean? hyperplasia means more cells, dedifferentiation is reverse differentiation, how could that result in more cells?

I must apoligize if I missed someone in some of the links, the scientific level and language presented is simply out of my leauge, but I'd love to learn!
 
Karky said:
what method exactly are you referring to? They say adipocytes might be able to dedifferentiate, I get that, but how would one manipulate fat cells to become muscle cells? Are you saying that someone while the adipocytes are dedifferentiating something would happen to make them into muscle cells?

By "adipocyte hyperplasia through the dedifferentiation"
what do you mean? hyperplasia means more cells, dedifferentiation is reverse differentiation, how could that result in more cells?

I must apoligize if I missed someone in some of the links, the scientific level and language presented is simply out of my leauge, but I'd love to learn!
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Dedifferentiation is akin to a regression of a cell (in this case I believe it is due to cell instability because of the excess fat content) into an unspecialized cell precursor that can then "divide" and reform into multiple fat cells.

My hypothesis was that if you took the methods described in the 3rd abstract and introduced the required metabolic agents before or during adipocyte dedifferentiation that would convert the dedifferentiated cell into a muscle cell. However, you have have to know about when dedifferentiation was going to take place and adjust for the fact that there would still be the leftover fat stores once held in the original adipocyte tissue.
 
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I woudnt get carried away with hyperplasia.

Heres a good summary though:

Department of Nutritional Sciences, University of California, Berkeley, USA.

The adipocyte plays a critical role in energy balance. Adipose tissue growth involves an increase in adipocyte size and the formation of new adipocytes from precursor cells. For the last 20 years, the cellular and molecular mechanisms of adipocyte differentiation have been extensively studied using preadipocyte culture systems. Committed preadipocytes undergo growth arrest and subsequent terminal differentiation into adipocytes. This is accompanied by a dramatic increase in expression of adipocyte genes including adipocyte fatty acid binding protein and lipid-metabolizing enzymes. Characterization of regulatory regions of adipose-specific genes has led to the identification of the transcription factors peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor-gamma (PPAR-gamma) and CCAAT/enhancer binding protein (C/EBP), which play a key role in the complex transcriptional cascade during adipocyte differentiation. Growth and differentiation of preadipocytes is controlled by communication between individual cells or between cells and the extracellular environment. Various hormones and growth factors that affect adipocyte differentiation in a positive or negative manner have been identified. In addition, components involved in cell-cell or cell-matrix interactions such as preadipocyte factor-1 and extracellular matrix proteins are also pivotal in regulating the differentiation process. Identification of these molecules has yielded clues to the biochemical pathways that ultimately result in transcriptional activation via PPAR-gamma and C/EBP. Studies on the regulation of the these transcription factors and the mode of action of various agents that influence adipocyte differentiation will reveal the physiological and pathophysiological mechanisms underlying adipose tissue development.

PMID: 9674695 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 
In regards to original poster:

1) No you should be fine as long as you keep your fitness up.

2) The sluggynish is probably more to your diet or sleep. Still mak esure your getting those energy carbs.
 
Committed preadipocytes undergo growth arrest and subsequent terminal differentiation into adipocytes
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"Terminal differentiation" I couldn't quite find a definition for it. Does it mean that once they have differentiated they can't go back?

and they are in cell arrest, doesn't that mean they can't divide? does this mean we have a set number of preadipocytes in our body which can differentiate to adipocytes?
 
thanks for all the replies, esp from Matt182! altho i didn't quite expect to spark a scholarly debate or anything lol

So basically, I should not, in this single bulk effort, go above my previous weight or I'll end up creating fat cells which will never go away.. I guess I'll continue on to my original 185lb target then.

Also, yes I think I am definitely going to look at making sure sleep is consistent and higher quality, however, I'm sure my diet is ok in terms of carbs.. I may also try to throw in some cardio maybe once or twice a week to keep me active and energised!
 
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