What's the best amount of reps for building bigger muscles?

[MysteryGuest]

Alright, so I know that in order to build bigger muscles the correct formula is "high weight, low reps" (that is to say, do weight that's so heavy you can only do a few reps of it before resting). My question is, what is the ideal amount of reps for this? Is it possible for one to have so much weight that you make little to no gain with it? I ask this because my brother (who's my work out buddy) started working out earlier than me and, thus, is stronger, but we always bench the same weight (about 105 or so pounds). When we do bench press, he usually does around five reps each time while I do one or two max. I've told him that I want to get bigger muscles and that's why I'm working out; he says that benching this much weight will help this, but I don't feel like I'm making significant gains.

tl;dr: Should I bench an amount of weight that I can only do one or two reps of max? Will this get me bigger muscles? Or is one or two reps too few? If it's too few, what's an ideal amount of reps for building bigger muscles, five?

 

[Jrahien]

1-3 reps is not enough at all, as so few slow reps do little to stimulate any kind of gain. 1-3 is typically seen only in explosive power training. (ie: Olympic lifting)

Keep in mind that strength and hypertrophy training are not necessarily the same. Strength benefits are achieved through the cellular makeup of your muscles while hypertrophy is simply an increase in muscle fiber size. Strength training generally uses something in the 3-5 rep range to overload the muscles and stimulate an adaption. To train for muscle size, you need sufficient enough reps that the muscle fibers break down, but not so many that you're simply training endurance. Hypertrophy training uses a mid-rep range, which usually in the 8-12 range.

 

[kiwiinmn]

If you are serious about muscle hypertrophy then you need to work your musculuture in 3 different rep ranges. ALL muscle fibre increases in bulk and tensile strength when stressed with sufficient overload, so if your serious then you would work the different rep ranges in successive workouts. You should do basic compound exercise, squats, dead lifts, bench press, bent rows, overhead presses on your power training days 1-5 reps, compound exercises for your hypertrophy training, as above and variations such as incline bench press, squat variations, low pulley rows, lat pulldowns chin ups etc... 8 - 12 rep range and you should also work the high rep range also to aid in capillarization, o2 transportation, lactate removal and general recovery... exercises such at db flys, cable cross overs, tri push downs, bicep curls, ab work extra shoulder work etc. rep range 15-20.

It really is not quite as simple as all that tho as the most important aspect of muscle hypertrophy is the dietary factor of the equation. For if you cannot nail this aspect of your quest then you will never fully realise your true potential. So study, experiment and make sure that above all else you know your daily energy expenditure and the details of your macro nutrients intake... proteins, carbs and fats, calories ingested etc. Do yourself one favour and go to a reputable gym with a trainer who will take a skin fold reading and give you an approx body composition breakdown. Base your daily caloric intake on your lean muscle mass and keep in mind that as you work the three rep ranges getting bigger and stronger and your lean muscle mass increases so too will your nutritional requirements...

Just one more thing there buddy... 105 lbs is a biceps curling weight NOT i repeat NOT an acceptable bench press weight...

if you want suggestions I'm happy and willing to offer many...

Alright, so I know that in order to build bigger muscles the correct formula is "high weight, low reps" (that is to say, do weight that's so heavy you can only do a few reps of it before resting). My question is, what is the ideal amount of reps for this? Is it possible for one to have so much weight that you make little to no gain with it? I ask this because my brother (who's my work out buddy) started working out earlier than me and, thus, is stronger, but we always bench the same weight (about 105 or so pounds). When we do bench press, he usually does around five reps each time while I do one or two max. I've told him that I want to get bigger muscles and that's why I'm working out; he says that benching this much weight will help this, but I don't feel like I'm making significant gains.

tl;dr: Should I bench an amount of weight that I can only do one or two reps of max? Will this get me bigger muscles? Or is one or two reps too few? If it's too few, what's an ideal amount of reps for building bigger muscles, five?

 

[Goldfish]

The short answer is that rep ranges matter less than progressive overload.

In saying that, just working up to a 1-2RM and stopping there isn't exactly ideal for building muscle mass. You could use that as part of the process, but you want more over-all volume than that. Most people will be looking at 10-30 total reps at a working weight in order to build muscle, over 2+ sets. For a lot of people, even higher volume than that is beneficial.

This might play out as 5x2 at 90%1RM, 3x5 at 85%1RM, 10x3 at 85%1RM, 5x5 at 80%1RM, 3x8-12 at 60-80%1RM, or anything else you can imagine. That's not even getting into more complicated things like pyramid training. I like reverse pyramids, in which you might work up to 1-3 heavy sets of 1-5 reps, and then start taking the weight down by 10-25% and repping it out. For example, while peaking for powerlifting earlier in the year, I did a 6-week program with different intensities and volumes each week, but the first week played out as something like 3x5x80%, 5x75%, 8x70%, 20x60%. If you just kept repeating that first week of the program over and over again, gradually adding weight each week, and eating like you mean it, I feel confident you'd put on some size.

 

[CrazyOldMan]

Old fool from old school
Rep ranges, based on using Rep Max or at least 90% of it, (not 90% of 1RM unless using 1 rep)
1-5 = Power
6-10 = Building
12-cardio driven = Local muscular endurance

That is very over simplified but sometimes simple is good.
Complications include genetics, style of exercise, amount of body used in each movement, and too much other stuff.
Correct rep range is good, diet, adequate recovery, continuous overload, appropriate training changes (not constant, or too infrequent) are all part of the package.

 

[MysteryGuest]

Thank you all for your advice! I do have a few questions as I'm relatively new to this and would like some clarification on terminology.

First, though, I'll describe my workout regiment in a little more detail. I've been doing an all around workout, usually going to the gym about 5 days a week. I do some cardio, usually a stationary bike or similar machine, then I go to the weight room. I usually do bench presses (about 105lbs, but will probably lower this), curls (65lbs 10 reps, though these are done with a machine rather than free weights), shoulder rolls (35lbs 30 reps) and rows (60lbs 15-20 reps) about 3 times a week, T-bar (I think around 55lbs, 10 reps), Some pec exercise machine that I can't seem to find the name of (120lbs, 5-6 reps), and barbell tricep extensions (40lbs, 15 reps) twice a week, and a number of leg exercises (usually with around 80lbs) plus dead lifts (about 100lbs I think, 15 or so reps) once a week as well as ab exercises (leg lifts with a 25lb weight, 20-25 reps and incline sit ups with a 10lb weight, 15-20 reps) about 5-10 times a week. I usually do two sets of whatever exercises I'm doing that day, sometimes three with some of the ones that exercise muscles I'm most interested in growing (pecs and biceps mostly, but arms in general).

I used to do squats, but I hate them. I know they're really good for you, but I've been doing a machine that works the same muscles as squats (but doesn't work the core as much) instead. I probably should do squats, but out of everything they're probably my least favorite exercise, and I don't really care that much about strengthening my legs.

Just one more thing there buddy... 105 lbs is a biceps curling weight NOT i repeat NOT an acceptable bench press weight...

What do you mean by "acceptable bench press weight?" I couldn't do a curl with a 105lb barbell I don't think, or if I did I would probably not be able to do many reps at all (not to mention I have an annoying forearm problem that basically prevents me from doing most curl exercises). Keep in mind I'm not really a body builder, I'm just trying to get bigger muscles. Are you saying I should be doing less bench press weight and more curl weight? Also, you mentioned that I should be doing "3 different rep ranges," does this mean that one day I do high weight at 1-5 reps, another day is medium weight at 6-10 reps, and finally one day is light weight at 12+ reps (to use CrazyOldMan's list of ranges)?

@Goldfish: I don't understand your terminology. What does "5x2 at 90%1RM, 3x5 at 85%1RM, 10x3 at 85%1RM, 5x5 at 80%1RM, 3x8-12 at 60-80%1RM" etc. mean? Does "5x2 at 90%1RM" mean 5 reps for two sets at 90% of...I don't know, max weight? And what is "1RM?"

As for diet and such, I don't think I have any major problems there. I'm not on a strict diet, but I tend to eat right and I drink a whey protein shake after every work out. Is there any specific advice I could get for this?

 

[Goldfish]

What do you mean by "acceptable bench press weight?" I couldn't do a curl with a 105lb barbell I don't think, or if I did I would probably not be able to do many reps at all (not to mention I have an annoying forearm problem that basically prevents me from doing most curl exercises). Keep in mind I'm not really a body builder, I'm just trying to get bigger muscles. Are you saying I should be doing less bench press weight and more curl weight? Also, you mentioned that I should be doing "3 different rep ranges," does this mean that one day I do high weight at 1-5 reps, another day is medium weight at 6-10 reps, and finally one day is light weight at 12+ reps (to use CrazyOldMan's list of ranges)?

He means you need to get stronger. If you could curl 105 and your training were balanced, you'd probably be benching 2-300. I'm pretty sure that was supposed to be a motivator rather than an immediate prescription.

@Goldfish: I don't understand your terminology. What does "5x2 at 90%1RM, 3x5 at 85%1RM, 10x3 at 85%1RM, 5x5 at 80%1RM, 3x8-12 at 60-80%1RM" etc. mean? Does "5x2 at 90%1RM" mean 5 reps for two sets at 90% of...I don't know, max weight? And what is "1RM?"

As for diet and such, I don't think I have any major problems there. I'm not on a strict diet, but I tend to eat right and I drink a whey protein shake after every work out. Is there any specific advice I could get for this?

1RM means 1 Rep Max; ie the maximum weight you can perform 1 complete, unassisted rep with (no cheating). So, if your 1RM deadlift is 300lb, 5x2x90%1RM would be 5 sets of 2 reps at 270lb, and 3x5x85%1RM would be 3 sets of 5 reps at 255lb.

There's a lot of specific advice you could get for diet. You need to be eating enough to gain weight if you want to build much muscle mass. I'd recommend aiming to gain 0.5lb/wk, which means consuming about 200-300kcal/day more than you need to maintain body weight.

 

[CrazyOldMan]

Keep in mind I'm not really a body builder, I'm just trying to get bigger muscles. Are you saying I should be doing less bench press weight and more curl weight? Also, you mentioned that I should be doing "3 different rep ranges," does this mean that one day I do high weight at 1-5 reps, another day is medium weight at 6-10 reps, and finally one day is light weight at 12+ reps (to use CrazyOldMan's list of ranges)?

Sorry to break this too you but the fact you are trying to get bigger muscles makes you a body builder. It's not a naughty term to hide from just a group of people who are focussed on training for aesthetic benefit, either competitive, just for yourself or to improve reproductive opportunities.

The rep ranges are not intended to be one day in each they are a guide to what produces which result. Being a freak who wants to be good at everything I do some of each, clue is in the name.

Examples of build rep styles are (sets x reps) 3 x 10, 3 x 8, 10 8 6, 10 10 8, and many others staying within the 10 - 6 range. If you want to build predominantly these ranges will be your bread and butter, with others being slight fillings.
So you may do a 6 to 8 week block of a program with 3 x 10 on each exercise, then another block of 10 8 6 with increasing weight. Then decide you need a bit more power and have several hours to kill so do a block of 555s, or you’re tiring too fast and need a bit more endurance so do some circuits using 12 to 20 reps a set. Identifying the areas you need to work on and doing them will only be to support the standard stuff so once you have done the block to support you would be straight back to building again.

For the record what is and isn't acceptable is totally personal and changes over time. There was a time when running at 9mph was unacceptable to me, my normal pace was 10 and getting to 9.5 was poor, 9 was unthinkable. Now I am aiming to be back up to 8 and 7.5 is my level to stay above.
When I started my bench press for 10 I was getting good reps with 25kg, this did rapidly increase to 30 but none the less my initial bench weight was barely more than that of an olympic bar. Unacceptable for me now is to have 1RM bench below my bodyweight, and bench is my weak event. You see why my running has slowed down now.

Viewing things as unacceptable drives many of us to pursue improvements, and motivates us to keep going when we may otherwise quit.
The below is an account not advice, this is to show the extremes some go to in the name of motivating themselves, not inspire you to copy his approach.
One guy I knew many years ago had a very large genetic set meaning he would either gain muscle or fat easily. Knowing his own mind set he bought an 8 week course of anabolic steroids and used them to gain a lot of muscle very early in his training. Once the course was finished he had set his mind on his minimum acceptable level. When I first met him that was 6 years before and he had been natural ever since, he'd used that one course to help his mind set and give him something he wouldn't tolerate losing. In a gym where most were juiced, he was considered a natural by many but not himself, that 'honour' he only bestowed on mental cases like me who were patient enough to do it properly as he said.

 

[MysteryGuest]

@Goldfish: thanks for the clarification. About diet: are there any foods that are particularly good for muscle building that I should be trying (besides the whey protein shakes, obviously). I've heard, for example, that peanut butter toast is really good for this. Is this true?

Sorry to break this too you but the fact you are trying to get bigger muscles makes you a body builder. It's not a naughty term to hide from just a group of people who are focussed on training for aesthetic benefit, either competitive, just for yourself or to improve reproductive opportunities.

Well okay. Me saying that I wasn't a body builder was really more of a humble admission of my lack of experience than me trying to avoid association with a particular group. When I think "body builder," I think someone who does it professionally, like a personal trainer or model or whatnot. If someone were to ask me if I was a body builder I'd probably respond "no, but I work out."

Also, for you guys's work out advice, let's see if I understand. If I assume that 105lbs (or maybe 110lbs) is my "1RM," does this sound like an appropriate bench press regiment: 3 days a week, day one is 5 sets 2 reps each of 90lbs, day 2 is 3 sets of 5 reps each at 85lbs, and day 3 is 5 sets of 5 reps each at 60lbs (with a rest day in between each)? Or would it be better to stick to one weight/reps/sets distribution throughout the week? I think my preference would be to just do the 3x5 at 85lbs each day I do the bench, would this be worse than varying it? What would be the advantages of doing "pyramid training" exercises where I start at high weight and go down in weight each set versus just doing the same weight each set?

 

[Goldfish]

1. Calories.
2. Protein.
3. Micro-nutrients.

For muscle-building purposes, those are the main things you should be looking at in your food. So anything that helps you get the required calories will be beneficial to muscle gain; however if you're also getting some good sources of protein-rich food, it'll be even better; and if you're getting a good assortment of vitamins and minerals (micro-nutrients), it'll be even better again, as well as having health benefits. I'm a real simple person when it comes to nutrition, so my approach is simply to get your meat, fruit, dairy and vegetables; add in some nuts, eggs and wholegrains; adjust the volume of each in accordance with your needs; and feel free to ignore this advice entirely if a nutritionist says otherwise.

With your program, I'd like to see you take up CrazyOldMan's advice, which is to pick an appropriate rep range and work with it for a while, then move into other reps ranges as it becomes appropriate. If I were you, I'd go back to 60lb and work at 3x10, adding 5lb/week (while prioritising technique over weight) for 4-8 weeks, then do 4 weeks at 3x8 (continuing to add weight in the same pattern), then 4 weeks at 5x5 (still adding 5lb/wk), then start over back at 3x10, repeating the whole process with heavier weights.

So, over the course of 16 weeks, if you don't have to repeat any weeks (if you miss any reps of your working weights, repeat the same weight next week rather than adding 5lb), it'd look something like this:

1: 3x10x60lb
2: 3x10x65lb
3: 3x10x70lb
4: 3x10x75lb
5: 3x10x80lb
6: 3x10x85lb
7: 3x10x90lb
8: 3x10x95lb
9: 3x8x100lb
10: 3x8x105lb -- congratulations, over 2 months you've beaten your PB by 7 reps.
11: 3x8x110lb
12: 3x8x115lb
13: 5x5x120lb
14: 5x5x125lb
15: 5x5x130lb
16: 5x5x135lb -- congratulations, you'd now be benching with 1 plate on either side of the bar.

Of course, what you do for 1 exercise is co-constitutive with context: it needs to fit into the program as a whole, and the rest of your program needs to be able to work around/with it. You could bench like that once, maybe twice a week, but you'd be burning out or spending your whole life in the gym if you approached every exercise like that while benching 3x/wk. So, to do that effectively, you'd be on some sort of split, such as upper/lower, push/pull, or even just A/B (or A/B/C). An upper/lower split would have your upper body exercises on one day and your lower body exercises on another, and you'd do 3-4 sessions a week. A push/pull split would have squats and pressing variations (pushes) one day and deadlifts and pulling variations (pulls) on another, again doing 3-4 sessions a week. An A/B/C split would have one leg exercise, one upper body push and one upper body pull in each session, but it'd be a different exercise for each part with each session. It occurs to me that I'm giving you a bit of an information dump here, and I'm probably raising more questions than I'm actually answering; I guess I'll deal with that when you reply even more confused than before.

 

[MysteryGuest]

Wow, thanks for the wealth of information, this is very helpful! I'm going to start your suggested bench press routine today. As you expected, I do have a few questions to clarify some of your advice.

What exactly do you mean by "prioritizing technique over weight?" Is that just trying to ensure that I can complete all my sets rather than being concerned about the weight I'm benching?

How come the 9th-12th week in your proposed regiment has me doing 2 less reps per set than the previous weeks?

I'm pretty sure I understand what "push" exercises are, but just for clarification, the "pull" exercises are pulleys and such right? Or are there "pull" exercises with barbells/dumbells as well? I've never really done and pulley exercises before, what are some good ones to start with?

Your last paragraph is a little confusing, but I think I get it. Currently, I work my arms 3 days a week and the other two days are for legs and other exercises. Usually, I do bench press, rows, curls, shoulders, and abs on my arm days, I work calves, thighs, back, and abs on my leg day, and my final day is dead lifts, tricep extensions, pecs, obliques, and abs if I feel up to it. I don't really up the weight on any of those exercises very ambitiously, I've mostly been playing it by ear. The curls and bench press have received the biggest weight increase, followed by rows and tricep extensions. I haven't really upped the weight on the leg exercises or dead lifts much yet if at all.

How would you suggest I modify this regiment? Am I making any obvious mistakes like working something too much/not enough? If I understand your final paragraph right, you seem to suggest I go to the gym 3-4 times a week rather than 5, or was this specifically the bench press you were referring to? You also seem to suggest I try some new exercises ("pulls"), any thoughts on what I should take out to make room for them?

 

[Goldfish]

Okay, by prioritising technique over weight, we're talking about how you lift being more important than how much you lift. At a beginner level, the main things I'd be looking at with regards to your technique are having your feet, hips and shoulders down; lifting your chest and squeezing your shoulders together; keeping your whole torso tight throughout the movement; getting a consistent bar path (lowering to the same point, lifting the bar to the same place, and following the same movement between those two points on each rep); and maintaining those first 3 points throughout the 4th point. That, and making sure your hands are evenly placed on the bar and that you're set up so that you can easily get the bar in and out of the rack.

Basically, what I've given you is a periodised plan, which phases through from 3x10 to 3x8 and finally 5x5. This will help accommodate adding weight each week without burning out, will allow a longer term of progressive overload before having to deload, and will make use of a few different levels of intensity while balancing out the volume so that each phase is good for hypertrophy. I'm anticipating that you won't be able to add 5lb/wk onto what you perform for 3x10 indefinitely, so this accounts for that.

Push and pull isn't really about the equipment being used, but about how you're moving the weight. It's more clear what constitutes pushing and pulling with upper body than lower body training: upper body pushing focuses on working to get something off/away from your body. So, in the bench press, you are pushing a weight off your chest. In the overhead press, you're pushing a weight off your shoulders and overhead. Pulling is the opposite; pulling something towards you. So, in the row, you're pulling a weight into your chest from out in front of your torso. In the pull up, you're pulling the bar into your chest from overhead (or pulling yourself up to the bar, whichever way you look at it). So you can push or pull with barbells, dumbbells, kettlebells, sandbags, pulley machines, pin machines, fixed machines, body weight or impromptu objects. It's all about whether you're trying to bring something towards you or get something away from you.

If you were to do a full body program, using the progression I've suggested previously and based on what I've found to work over the years, it would simply be 3 training sessions a week, and something like this:

Day A:
Back Squat (lower push)
Bench Press (upper push)
Pull Ups (upper pull) superset with Hyperextension (hinge/lower pull)
Circuit of Calf Raise, Bicep Curls, Tricep Extensions and Abs

Day B:
Front Squat (lower push)
Overhead Press (upper push) superset with Rows (upper pull)
Deadlift (lower pull)
Circuit of Shoulder Isolations and Abs

Perform Day A on Monday and Friday, Day B on Wednesday. Do the 3x10/3x8/5x5 progression for back squats, bench press, overhead press and deadlifts. Do 1 set of pull ups or rows for each set of bench press or overhead press on the day; the number of reps you complete for these two exercises isn't as important as balancing out the number of sets between them and the pushes. Stick to 2-3 sets on front squats, and do 2x10-20 on the circuit exercises. In a circuit, you do each exercise back to back, so it'd be 10-20 calf raises followed immediately by 10-20 curls followed immediately by 10-20 tricep extensions followed immediately by 10-20 reps (or roughly 1min) of an ab exercise, rest a minute then do it all again for a second set.

When doing any lift (well, as a generalisation; there are exceptions to this), but especially pulls, one of the most important things is that you're opening your chest throughout the movement. Your upper back should be in extension while doing rows and pull ups; if you find yourself letting your upper back and chest round forwards, you're using the wrong muscles for the exercises, and so they won't have the desired effect.