A little fact that nobody thinks about...

Or perhaps this is just something worth discussing....

First-off...I'm going to state outright that I am NOT suggesting that we not weight-lift or try to gain muscle, nor am I suggesting that cardio isn't valuable. We all know how critical both are!!!

You'll constnatly hear how each pound of lean muscle requires calories just to exist on your body...even if not in use. Just a couple years ago we'd hear big numbers like "each pound of additional muscle will burn 80 calories per day even when not being used"....well, those numbers have been dramatically reduced...down to 12-25 calories per day, depending on where that muscle is and other factors. All I know is that my nutritionist said the calorie demand of the additional muscle tissue is MUCH less then science previously indicated. Okay, suffice it so say...more muscle means more calories burned each day...and so the theory goes that you can either eat more OR you will lose weight faster because you essentially have a bigger engine. Great. Makes sense...we're all "there".

Well...after 2 years of long & hard work and fighting every darn ounce to get off my body, I'd like to share something that may seem obvious...but we often neglect to factor that in.

It all falls into the category of "The body attempts to maintain an equillibrium"

Yes, each additional pound of added muscle will burn calories each day....BUT your body is very well aware of this demand and in the same like manner your body will entirely respond to this "bigger engine" by simply increasing the drive & demand for you to eat more calories!!!

Let's face it..smokers don't "need" to smoke...they can just not do it...but our bodies require nutrients; we can't simply stop eating....and so each day we must make decisions and wage a battle against our appetite. You know, appetite, that thing that drives us to eat.

You ever eat a HUGE meal and notice how you have absolutely no interest in eating ANYTHING...even the most delicious stuff in the world falls entirely into the category of "disinterested" when you're totally (almost morbidly) full. And on the flip-side...when you're starving hungry...you just can't get that food into your mouth fast enough. Fact is, our bodies are in more control then we realize: we eat to appease this hunger. Sure, we can exercise discipline and control things...but still, for most of us..each day is a war against our bodies inclination towards consumption.

What I've found is the same holds true for cardio. I've peddled my bike for hours and watched the heart-rate monitor's calorie-counter reach over 2,500 calories. Do you really think the body isn't aware of those calories being burned????? It knows the glycogen has been burned and some fat depleted: it wll entirely compel you to replace those calories...and all too often we over-estimate just how many calories we really burned AND we rationalize that we've done our exercise and deserve it (well, I don't....I just think of the deficit I've created and then estimate how much would be ideal in terms of replacement). It's easy to eat-back the calories we've burned.

And here's the kicker...if you ignore your hunger now...it's still there in 5 minutes, 20 minutes and so-on.

So add muscle...and your body seeks to compensate by increasing the drive for consumption & calories. Do cardio and burn thousands of calories....same thing, you're body will drive you to replace 'em.

In the end, my conclusion is that the cardio will help your circulatory, respiratory and a host of other critical systems...and weights will help tone, build and define your muscular build....BUT in the end, it's the exercise you do with a fork that dictates the body-fat percentage of your body. That doesn't mean you should eat with a spoon or no utensils at all...but the point is, what you put in your mouth, more then anything, is what ultimately dictates the amount of fat on your body!

Learn it, love it, live it.....and if you aren't making progress, put your diet under the microscope! Most people far underestmate their calories! I go out to lunch with my nutrionist every month and we play a game called "count the calories"...and I'm telling you, even he underestimates the calories. There is more calories in food then we imagine and our bodies burn less calories then we'd like to think...and all those little snacks add-up big-time!

So if someone tells you they do everything right and they just can't lose weight (me and my poor metabolism)....don't even give them the time of day unless they keep a food journal. More often then not their "ideal day" is one a couple days a week and the rest of the time their eating more and not factoring-in those snacks and times thet ate-out.

DIET IS EVERYTHING....
 
do you have an abridged version?
 
DIET IS EVERYTHING....



Hardly.
Thin does not mean healthy. Life is about balance and that goes for weight loss too.
Consider this....the act of buiding muscle or doing cardo burns calories. So who is healthier? The one who ate more nutrients and exercised to burn some off. Or the one who took in less nutrients and lost weight.

Diet is crucial. But nothing is everything.
 
I read a few sentences.. and you get hungry from not eating too :p

Did you know that it's better to be overweight and fit than to have a normal weight and be unfit?
 
First-off...I'm going to state outright that I am NOT suggesting that we not weight-lift or try to gain muscle, nor am I suggesting that cardio isn't valuable. We all know how critical both are!!!


I think you guys are rather missing the point. This is the weight-loss section.

When you say the word "diet" to an athlete...it generally relates to their nutrient intake; what they're eating, which foods, nutrients, fats/carbs/protein, etc. It's their diet, what they are consuming.

When you say the word "diet" to the average person who is overweight and trying to lose 25-100 pounds (ya know, like the forum members who lurk this WEIGHT LOSS section of the forum)....it generally relates to "being on a diet" and to them "diet" is about a program designed to help you lose weight through caloric restriction.

My point is simple: in so far as weight-loss (and if you want to knit-pick it further....fat-loss) is concerned...diet is everything!

It doesn't do any good to cardio 2,000 calories off your body if you're just going to eat it back. It doesn't do any good to add 5.5 pounds of lean muscle if you're just going to eat-back the additional calories required to sustain that muscle. It's all a wash. As my nutrionist Alan Aragon AND undefeated World Kick-Boxing Champion Don "The Dragon" Wilson both told me: DIET IS EVERYTHING.

Come on guys....does that mean you can rob a liquor store but it's okay, because diet is everything? Does it mean you can run a red-light, but it's okay, diet is everything? Of course not. I even started the thread by stating that exercise, both cardio & weight-lifting, is critical.....

This is the reason so many people are hesitant to post here, a few too many people like to criticize and tear everyone else down in some kind of contest in who knows it all. Sure, it's probably better to have a bit too much fat on your body but be able to exercise and eat healthy...rather then just eating junk food and eating so little you can see your rib cage. That's absolutely not my point.

So for those of you who indulge in knit-picking, let me restate & elaborate for clarification: IN SO FAR AS FAT-LOSS IS CONCERNED, DIET IS EVERYTHING....and if you want to take that out of context and abrasively start your post with "Hardly"...then so be it. The people I'm trying to reach will read, understand and connect with what I'm trying to relate.
 
I read a few sentences.. and you get hungry from not eating too :p

Did you know that it's better to be overweight and fit than to have a normal weight and be unfit?

Not necessarily for lifespan.

A 1994 study of 7,000 former players by the National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health found linemen had a 52 percent greater risk of dying from heart disease than the general population. While U.S. life expectancy is 77.6 years, recent studies suggest the average for NFL players is 55, 52 for linemen.



Steve, sorry for the hijack:)
 
Steve, sorry for the hijack:)


Richard....you couldn't annoy or upset me if you tried! :)


I think science has pretty much proven that a maximum lifespan can be achieved by being almost on the brink of starvation. Well, not quite the brink...but a few steps away from it. That's what they found with lab rats and in human studies.

You can find, read and interpret a lot. I just read a bit article where a scientist spent a lot of time going to what he called "blue zones"...parts of the world where people tend to live the longest, over 100. Very interesting reading his findings...some of what I recollect:

The more meat you eat, the sooner you die...and yes, that goes for lean fish, turkey and ANY meat. Meat is bad for longevity. Yes, we have the enzymes to digest it and the mouth to devour it...we were designed to cope with flesh tissue...but a sooner death does it bring us.

Moderate exercise....gardening being the best all-body workout. Excessively active people wear parts out; there's a fine line between getting enough movement & exercise to be beneficial...and doing so much that it's working against you. I know I'm doing more then what's ideal...I'm borrowing against future mobility.

Other stuff...like cities kill us with everything: air, chemicals, pollution.


BUT I will again state my position when it comes to people who say they can't lose weight and try, try, try...diet is really the most key thing. You can gain muscle, but your body will adopt a greater hunger to support that muscle. You can exercise 2,000 calories...but your body will strive to replace those calories. After my own 2 years of struggling I've found the diet to be the key. Sure....I worked-out harder, swam longer, biked further, played racquetball more often...but most my results really came when I put the diet under the microscope, and it wasn't about carbs, protein or other stuff..just calories!
 
What an odd assortment of responses!

BSL, I thought that was very well written and totally true, probably not a word I would disagree with.

Cardio has great health benefits but it shouldn't be treated as the holy grail of fat loss as diet is the key.

I got a bit of stick on here a few weeks back for saying that diet was as important/maybe more important than weight lifting for muscle growth but I stick by the idea that no fitness goal is in range unless the diet is sorted out first, as the top priority, as no amount of hard work will bring results until that's adequate
 
I agree with most of what you said, and actually, I think we all not only knew this, but think of it as the first thing in reference to losing weight (at least I do). I always always always look at the diet first when someone, or myself, has an issue losing weight. I would never condone attempting weight loss without weight training (and cardio, though not totally necessary), but theoretically it is definitely possible. As others said, one who lacked exercise would definitely not be in nearly as good as condition as one who did, and probably has a much smaller longevity, but diet still allows the weight to remain constant.

So, I think we all do think of this, and I certainly knew that diet was the most important. That being said, I do pretty much agree with the information you threw out there. I think the people asking the questions are the ones that don't realize this, but the ones answering the questions usually do :)

PS: Aragon is your nutritionist?!?
 
I to agree, nutrition is 80% of any weight lose program, and i also believe everything you eat should be documented, by keeping a daily journal.=======YOU CAN,T OUT TRAIN BAD NUTRITION!
 
A few points you neglect in your discussion:
1. You left out the hormone changes caused by exercise and how they affect weight loss (although I would argue the correct goal for health should be fat loss). Excessive cardio causes an increase in the hormone cortisone, which signals the body to store fat. Excessive cardio, without caloire deprevation, CAUSES fat gain.
2. Calorie deprevation without exercise results in loss of lean body mass, NOT fat loss.
3. You should think in terms of lifestyle changes, not diets. Calorie deprevation diets can result in short term weight loss, but will inevitably fail in the long run, becasue at some point you will stop dieting and gain fat again, usually faster than before because of the effects of reduced BMR caused by calorie deprevation and the anabolic effect of increased food intake.
 
this brings up an interesting question.. once you reach your desired weight.. how do you regulate your body to stay at that weight?.. it kind of plays into BikeSwimLaugh's theme: diet is everything.. but dswithers brought up some interesting points about weight gain after weight loss.. just throwin' ideas out there.. interested.

-Chris
 
Okay.....major edit or clarification (for those who didn't quite catch my phrasing right)...cause stuff can get lost in the text.

Guys...when I say "diet is EVERYTHING"....I'm not suggesting that diet is the ONLY thing you need be concerned with. It's an exaggerated catch-all phrase to suggest the critical role of diet. What I'm saying is that you can exercise, weight-train, do cardio, take supplements, meditate and and even climb the highest mountain...BUT in so far as losing fat, diet is CRITICAL and more often then not the culprit behind plateau's and people who claim they can't make headway...or just about anyone.

After 2 years of hard work I've found this to be more true then anything. Some of you are familar with my routine: I take a spin-class, run the treadmill for 2 miles (killing time), then take a 2nd spin-class, then swim a mile...I go for about 3.5 hours and burn a projected 2,150 calories on average. I do this 2-3x per week and weight-train in-between days. I play racquetball, mountain bike and stay very active. With all this exercise, averaging about 18-22 hours per week, I will not lose an ounce of fat if I "listen to my body" which tries its hardest to replenish every darn calorie I've burned...and then some! The body strives towards equillibrium or "set-point". All my best progress has come while maintaining a strong sense of what I put in my mouth and this is the message I want to pass to newbie-dieters visiting this site.

Example: in my daughters Karate class there's this fat little boy who marginally does his stuff and then mommy rewards him with a Haagan-Daz ice-cream treat. She figures his being active will help him lose weight. That ice-cream probably has more calories then junior even burned...but like so many people, they don't realize how little calories the exercise burned AND how many calories that little ice-cream treat has.

We're all on the same page and at this point we're knit-picking....but it's fun and this is what we do here...so let's do it! :)



BSL, I thought that was very well written and totally true, probably not a word I would disagree with.

Cardio has great health benefits but it shouldn't be treated as the holy grail of fat loss as diet is the key.

I got a bit of stick on here a few weeks back for saying that diet was as important/maybe more important than weight lifting for muscle growth but I stick by the idea that no fitness goal is in range unless the diet is sorted out first, as the top priority, as no amount of hard work will bring results until that's adequate

And I'm inclined to entirely agree with you...which in and of itself is scary ;)

It's not your point, but I'm very interested in learning more about how cardio affects the body in a manner that can actually increase fat-retention or be counter productive, I believe dwithers touched on that....I've got him quoted below...let's chew the fat on that!


PS: Aragon is your nutritionist?!?

No biggy. He's right next to my gym over in Thousand Oaks, I've known him for about 2 years now. Like any nutritionist he's avaialable to anyone at a very reasonable cost. I have a unique situation with him; we meet once per month for weight, measurement and BF% evaluation....then we go for lunch and have sushi and play "guess how many calories we just ate" :D

If you want his ph#, just toss me a pm...he's quite available to anyone and many of his clients are out of state.

A few points you neglect in your discussion:
1. You left out the hormone changes caused by exercise and how they affect weight loss (although I would argue the correct goal for health should be fat loss). Excessive cardio causes an increase in the hormone cortisone, which signals the body to store fat. Excessive cardio, without caloire deprevation, CAUSES fat gain.
2. Calorie deprevation without exercise results in loss of lean body mass, NOT fat loss.
3. You should think in terms of lifestyle changes, not diets. Calorie deprevation diets can result in short term weight loss, but will inevitably fail in the long run, becasue at some point you will stop dieting and gain fat again, usually faster than before because of the effects of reduced BMR caused by calorie deprevation and the anabolic effect of increased food intake.

I have to agree with you across the board....but my lack of covering such issues is hardly "neglect"....it's just that I already write some of the longest post on the forum (short of Chillen) and it wouldn't be right for me to write a whole novel on diet. But addressing your points:

Excessive cardio causes an increase in the hormone cortisone, which signals the body to store fat.

That's very intersting and I've heard this before...that a demand for cardio endurnace will trigger the body to build a bigger fuel-tank, BUT a fat-based fuel tank is still a tank that burns and brings-up "fuel" at too slow a rate to support activity with such demand. Wouldn't the body be better served by increasing glycogen storage? Glycgoen is stored in the blood, liver and around the muscle (as I understand). Are you sure about that increase in cortisone and how it affects the body? What studies have been done, how does this work?

It's been suggested that my big cardio will inhibit my fat loss and possibly be counter-productive...but these are also the same people who might suggest I need to eat more in order to lose fat, and believe me: any time I've eaten more my fat-loss efforts have diminished...so I'm very skeptical when people try to suggest doing more exercise is counter-productive. My nutritionist says "exercise is exercise, it burns calories"...but that's in the short run, it does not address how the body might hormonally respond and affect things in the long run. It sounds like your suggesting we can do big cardio, but be extremely watchful on how much we then eat for fear it could be counter-productive and actually cause an increase not in fat, but in our body's inclination towards wanting to store fat? I'm not trying to challenge or defy you, but please elaborate & substantiate...inquiring dieters wanna know! :)


Calorie deprevation without exercise results in loss of lean body mass, NOT fat loss.

Okay...I'm going to have to disagree with you on this call. More then a few forum member will rip on ya for that one too....

Current research suggests that as much as 30% of weight-loss while dieting comes from loss of lean muscle...most people will lose lean body mass while dieting, and this is exactly why weight-training is so critical; to preserve lean muscle and essentially tell the body that we are using and need this muscle, the message to the body: do not drop the muslce as a means of coping with the calorie deficit....and so yes: exercise while under calorie restriction will inhibit the loss of lean body mass, but it's wrong to say that calorie deprivation without exercise will result in loss of lean body mass and NOT fat loss.

If you diet without exercise, then you will lose as much as 30% from lean body mass...but you absolutely will also lose from body fat as well. Nothing stop the body from burning fat...


You should think in terms of lifestyle changes, not diets. Calorie deprevation diets can result in short term weight loss, but will inevitably fail in the long run, becasue at some point you will stop dieting and gain fat again, usually faster than before because of the effects of reduced BMR caused by calorie deprevation and the anabolic effect of increased food intake

Big-time concur on that call. Statistics show that 85% of diets fail. My nutrionist has a technical term for it, but essentialy a body that undergoes an extreme change of diet generally lacks a certain base to maintian that loss and weight comes back. And that brings me to something else I'd like to add to my whole experience (thank you for reminding me of this)...

Over the last 2 years I've had many friends, neighbors and associates go on diets...many of them have had very impressive results. I myself have always had impressive loses of BF% while often maintaining weight...we've all heard me bitch about how I work so hard and the scale won't budge. Yes, yes....muscle weighs more then fat and I'm over that issue...but my point is that every one of those neighbors, friends and associates that have gone on Atkins, Weight-Watchers, Jenny Craig or even one guy who had some vitamin injections: they all eventually put it all back!!!!!! Every one of them!!!!

It's not just about changing your diet, it's about changing your body and mind...but it essentialy comes down to a change in life-style. But in some manner I have to disagree with that notion, and here's why:

As I've said, the body strives towards equillibrim. I feel my body has visciously fought me with every step of the way...and I will mention that my younger brother was diagnosed with a thyroid issue, so I probably have some genetic thing working against me too. I describe my weight-loss efforts as trying to ride my bike up a very steep hill in a strong headwind...HUGE effort for tiny results...but I've won the battle by staying the course 90% of the time for over 700 days!

What I've experienced lends toward "Set-Point Theory"...in that the body attempts to maintain a certain weight. It seems true...I can eat a bit much or a bit less and my weight remains about the same! I went on a vacation to Hawaii and by the 3rd day was "indulging"...and yet when I returned, I hardly put-on any weight. It's that equillbrium thing I'm talking about.

The key, at least for me, is to move that set-point and push my body to a lower weight: but how do we do that? Well....it's a deliberate WAR, battle and fight against your body, just as Johnnysolo said "it's a dance with the devil". I need to push that set-point and I generally do that with intervals of doing a "lifestyle change" where I eat healthy and shoot for a lean diet, but then I'll do 3-6 days of intense "DIET" where I'm really on the cut and deliberately eating lean: this is not a lifestyle, this is a body-altering head-on intervention where I'm pushing that set-point much in the way a football player might tackle a sled during practice.

So for me the "lifestyle change" is about the maintenance....but changing my body and losing weight is more about a temporary non-permanent & deliberate battle that could and should not be sustained on a regular basis...hence, it's not just a lifestyle change.

A person could argue that you should eat towards your ideal weight: figure out what you want to weigh and then eat appropriately towards those calories. Well, my body is a bit resistant and most people with weight issues are in the same boat. Fact is, you can't just "listen to your body"...because your body wants to maintain it's weight and it doesn't realize you have food available to you 24/7 and so it instinctively falls into the knack of figuring we have a famine coming next year. Add to that the stresses of today's life and the gratification that comes from eating...factor-in today's super-foods that they didn't have 5,000 years ago: pizza, doritos, snickers bar, lasange and anything from the four basic food groups: cake, candy, coke & cookies!

So in conclusion, it's a combination of lifestyle change....but a battle of dieting & exercise in order to get there.

Sorry for the long post...but if I wasn't doing this, I'd be working! :confused:
 
Last edited:
I love this line personally:
"The body attempts to maintain an equillibrium"

I hated it when I was trying to drop weight or gain some more mass but during maintaince routine / diet weeks, it sure does make life easy. Easier meaning that once you are lean and eat a lot, you will crap a lot while some some bf only. Getting to being "lean" is a nasty process though.

Good write btw, BSL. I agree with most if not all those points. Btw, split it into chapters next time please. Took me like 10 days to finish reading it. :) English is my 2nd language afterall.
 
Getting to being "lean" is a nasty process though.

That pretty much sums-up my whole basis of thought in 9 words! :D :D

LOL.......

Ya know, my sole basis for this thread was simply addressing this notion:

"by adding more muscle you can eat more and not gain weight OR you can eat the same and catch that calorie deficit! :D

Truth is, if you add 5 pounds of muscle, your body knows the muscle is there and your appetite & drive to eat more increases to meet that demand. It doesn't become any easier.

And then of course people start misconstruing my thoughts to figure I'm suggesting we don't need to weight-train, do cardio or exercise...or we start discussing diet. :action:

After 2 years of fierce battle with getting in shape, I've gained lots of muscle and I do what doctors & fitness trainers describe as "excessive cardio"....and in the end, my best progress in terms of losing fat came from diet and running the calorie deficit. Doing all that cardio won't do any good if you eat-back the calories & replenish...and your body drives you to do this. And so I say "diet is everything"...which is an expression merely to suggest the critical nature and component that diet is.....and then, of course, members misconstrue that to figure I literally mean diet is "everything" and the only thing. :confused:

I'm telling ya...a member has to go way out on a limb to try to write anything helpful; the propencity for others to pick things apart and knit-pick is just ridiculous. Still, I'm all for discussing things and if I can help anyone, then I'm glad. It is the way of The Chillin.
 
I say "diet is everything"... the propencity for others to pick things apart and knit-pick is just ridiculous.
How very true. But that's just what web discussions are like. Now you know you shouldn't have put it that way. Nits, by way of further nitpicking, are the eggs of head lice.
 
Back
Top