Difference between strength and muscle?

[Oldspice]

I've heard speculation that you can gain muscle, without gaining weight and eating over maintenance. Well, you would gain weight, but very slowly and not much at all. Is this true?

Apparently, if you eat protein 1g per lb of body weight and a normal diet, you can gain muscle. But, to gain weight/muscle/fat, you have to eat over maintenance. Eating a normal diet will take longer, but you can actually build muscle while eating a normal diet, since you are lifting weights and making your muscles stronger. I know your supposed to eat over maintenance to gain additional weight and muscle together, but if your happy with your weight and want to just gain some muscle, isn't this a logical solution, rather than getting bigger and having to cut excess body fat?

Everyone wants to get bigger..But, what about an athletic build? How do you get that toned athletic body? It can't be through diet, because they have muscle...Although, it's not body building, because they wouldn't be flexible...Their has to be some middle ground, or supplements, steroids, etc...Otherwise, it just doesn't make too much sense...

Or, do you HAVE to eat more calories do get stronger and gain muscle? Personally, i don't know if i believe this, because when i first started i weighed 143lbs and i could overhead shoulder press 30lb dumbbells. Now, i can overhead shoulder press 60lb dumbbells in each hand, but only weigh 147lbs. I don't eat over maintenance...I've also increased everything...My squat went from 85 and being sore, to 185 and not being sore...

Would this be considered newbie gains, or is it possible you can gain muscle without gaining fat slowly...Because i count calories and i am 100% positive i do not eat over maintenance and i do HIIT cardio 2x a week. If i haven't gained muscle, i've obviously gained strength...Is their a difference between strength and muscle?

 

[limestix]

I've heard speculation that you can gain muscle, without gaining weight and eating over maintenance. Well, you would gain weight, but very slowly and not much at all. Is this true?

Apparently, if you eat protein 1g per lb of body weight and a normal diet, you can gain muscle. But, to gain weight/muscle/fat, you have to eat over maintenance. Eating a normal diet will take longer, but you can actually build muscle while eating a normal diet, since you are lifting weights and making your muscles stronger. I know your supposed to eat over maintenance to gain additional weight and muscle together, but if your happy with your weight and want to just gain some muscle, isn't this a logical solution, rather than getting bigger and having to cut excess body fat?

You can eat under maintenance and build muscle if your genetics lets you, but most people can't. And you do not have to gain fat to gain muscle. If you want to get stronger, while gaining a small amount of muscle, and little to no fat, do a clean bulk, and lift very heavy. Eat only 300-500 calories over maintenance, and do it with clean foods. Aim for 1-2 pounds each month.

Everyone wants to get bigger..But, what about an athletic build? How do you get that toned athletic body? It can't be through diet, because they have muscle...Although, it's not body building, because they wouldn't be flexible...Their has to be some middle ground, or supplements, steroids, etc...Otherwise, it just doesn't make too much sense...

Body building does not make you inflexible. In fact body building has been proven through many studies to increase flexibility. It is through general activity. You can build a lot of muscle without ever hitting a gym. You just need to be very active in something, like a difficult sport, in order to give your muscles stimulation to grow. And most athletes have low bodyfat because they are very active. No steroids or supplements needed.

Or, do you HAVE to eat more calories do get stronger and gain muscle? Personally, i don't know if i believe this, because when i first started i weighed 143lbs and i could overhead shoulder press 30lb dumbbells. Now, i can overhead shoulder press 60lb dumbbells in each hand, but only weigh 147lbs. I don't eat over maintenance...I've also increased everything...My squat went from 85 and being sore, to 185 and not being sore...

Would this be considered newbie gains, or is it possible you can gain muscle without gaining fat slowly...Because i count calories and i am 100% positive i do not eat over maintenance and i do HIIT cardio 2x a week. If i haven't gained muscle, i've obviously gained strength...Is their a difference between strength and muscle?

Strength and muscle walk hand in hand, but if you want maximal strength gain for minimal weight gain, take a page out of the power lifters book because they compete for maximum strength at lowest possible weight class.

 

[malkore]

and frankly muscle and strength are not synonymous. strength is more about the ability to maximize the muscles force potential by optimally contracting all muscle fibers simultaneously.

comparing body builders and power lifters is a great way to illustrate this. power lifters have a lot of strength but often appear 'athletic'. Body builders have a lot of muscle mass, and look like He-Man action figures...but they may not necessarily have the strength of a 'smaller' power lifter.

their goals and workouts/diets are different.

its the reason some 'wirey' guys can have hellacious strength, and why you sometimes see huge body builders only curling 30lb dumbbells.

strength has a lot to do with mind/muscle connection. muscle mass helps, but only if your brain can use it

 

[Oldspice]

and frankly muscle and strength are not synonymous. strength is more about the ability to maximize the muscles force potential by optimally contracting all muscle fibers simultaneously.

comparing body builders and power lifters is a great way to illustrate this. power lifters have a lot of strength but often appear 'athletic'. Body builders have a lot of muscle mass, and look like He-Man action figures...but they may not necessarily have the strength of a 'smaller' power lifter.

their goals and workouts/diets are different.

its the reason some 'wirey' guys can have hellacious strength, and why you sometimes see huge body builders only curling 30lb dumbbells.

strength has a lot to do with mind/muscle connection. muscle mass helps, but only if your brain can use it

Hmm, this is a good point. So basically to get bigger and get bigger arms, i have to eat a lot. (over maintenance, continue lifting and put some fat on) Keeping in mind I'm an endomorph, so i will gain fat in my gut. Although, I'll continue to get stronger and build muscle. If i don't eat over maintenance, I'll continue to get stronger slowly, but my size won't really change, because I'm not supplying my body with enough nutrients. Is this right?

Lol, i do think it's funny though. (Strength and muscle) Today, i saw this pretty big muscular guy pick up 55lb dumbbells and struggle doing about 8 reps. I know he did 3 sets. It must have looked funny, because my measly 5'7 147lbs came over and did the same exercise and did 60lb dumbbells on the first set doing 12 reps. I bumped up the weight on the next two. That kind of stuff just always confuses me...

 

[tic]

The muscluar guy migh be doing what I am doing, which is glycogen depletion workout so their diet is lacking carbs. Bascially, I am working out with only 50% of my normal weights that i would do and STRUGGLING big time. For example, I was benching 270 lbs with 5 reps at 5 sets and now barley can do 185 with 10-12 reps at 4 sets.

As for the muscle gain, after you go out of the newbie stage; its pretty hard to gain muscle and not put on fat. So basically, you will have to eat above maintaince. There are tricks to manipulate your diet in a MACRO sense to gain muscle while losing fat or not gaining fat BUT it's strict dieting + excercise with carb cycling, etc... fun stuff.

Another thing about power-lifting vs bodybuilder. I noticed that when I Power train, I am EXPLODING into my movement vs when I am bodybuilding, my movement is slower and I squeeze and hold. It's a whole different beast from pace/ form/ diet and routine.

 

[Oldspice]

The muscluar guy migh be doing what I am doing, which is glycogen depletion workout so their diet is lacking carbs. Bascially, I am working out with only 50% of my normal weights that i would do and STRUGGLING big time. For example, I was benching 270 lbs with 5 reps at 5 sets and now barley can do 185 with 10-12 reps at 4 sets.

As for the muscle gain, after you go out of the newbie stage; its pretty hard to gain muscle and not put on fat. So basically, you will have to eat above maintaince. There are tricks to manipulate your diet in a MACRO sense to gain muscle while losing fat or not gaining fat BUT it's strict dieting + excercise with carb cycling, etc... fun stuff.

Another thing about power-lifting vs bodybuilder. I noticed that when I Power train, I am EXPLODING into my movement vs when I am bodybuilding, my movement is slower and I squeeze and hold. It's a whole different beast from pace/ form/ diet and routine.

As of now, i think my best bet is to eat over maintenance, gain some fat and muscle, then cut. Therefore, when i cut i'll have some bigger muscles to show...Rather then if i cut now, i'll have very low body fat, but look like i just got out of pow camp...I can't gain muscle and get low body fat at the same time, so this only makes sense...

 

[tic]

If you are going to excess in calories, just remember that excess of CARBS+FAT will cause the body to retain more of the calories into fat. It's a big recipe. In other word, keep the carbs high and the fat moderate to low while you are trying to gain muscle. Eat 1 to 1.5g of protein per Lean Body Mass, LBM.

 

[Oldspice]

If you are going to excess in calories, just remember that excess of CARBS+FAT will cause the body to retain more of the calories into fat. It's a big recipe. In other word, keep the carbs high and the fat moderate to low while you are trying to gain muscle. Eat 1 to 1.5g of protein per Lean Body Mass, LBM.

Really? Hmm...I've been doing this wrong. I've been eating low carbs, high fat and protein...(Good fats)

I'll have about 100g of carbs a day.

Should i change this?

 

[tic]

I am not 100% sure on this, double check it but I think its a 40% protein, 30% carbs, and 30% fat diet (good fat), in term of calories. Here is some conversion info:

Macronutrients Calories
Per Gram
Protein 4 calories
Carbohydrates 4 calories
Fat 9 calories

Say you are on a 2,000 calorie diet, its:
0.40x2000 = 800 calorie / 4 = 200 g of protein (all you really need is 1g protein per 1 lbs LBM)

With your current 100g of carbs = 400 calories from it; ya, you might want to up that and decrease the fat.

I am confident that you can figure out the rest but try to keep the fat + carbs balance, I think. Another diet that some use is: 35% protein, 45% carbs, and 20% fats.

 

[Karky]

If you are going to excess in calories, just remember that excess of CARBS+FAT will cause the body to retain more of the calories into fat. It's a big recipe. In other word, keep the carbs high and the fat moderate to low while you are trying to gain muscle. Eat 1 to 1.5g of protein per Lean Body Mass, LBM.

why does carbs + fat make your body retain more calories into fat than if you ate the same amount of calories low carb or low fat?

 

[Oldspice]

why does carbs + fat make your body retain more calories into fat than if you ate the same amount of calories low carb or low fat?

I think this is somewhat inaccurate...Your body doesn't need carbohydrates and will burn fat if you consume fat. (Ironic) It's proven that people can live on 0g of carbs a day. Although, if you exercise, it's recommended to consume a little bit of carbs for energy.

I don't see how excess fat, will make you fatter. It makes sense that excess fat + carbs isn't good. Because this assumes most of the carbs will be bad..(no nutritional value)

Here is more on the subject.

 

[Karky]

well let's see if Tic has a theory. I know what's good and bad, but if Tic knows something I don't, I want to hear about it.

IMO, too much excess calories is bad, regardless of their source. Fat just gets a bad name because it has more calories per gram than the other macros.

 

[matt182]

I think this is somewhat inaccurate...Your body doesn't need carbohydrates and will burn fat if you consume fat. (Ironic) It's proven that people can live on 0g of carbs a day. Although, if you exercise, it's recommended to consume a little bit of carbs for energy.

I don't see how excess fat, will make you fatter. It makes sense that excess fat + carbs isn't good. Because this assumes most of the carbs will be bad..(no nutritional value)

Here is more on the subject.

That's like saying my car doesn't need unleaded petrol, considering it is designed for it. Sure the car may run, but performance will be decreased and problems with come earlier rather than later.

 

[tic]

Lets get back to the point here though guys. Oldspice, you should intake more carbs. My low carb / low calorie diet is making it hard for me remember everything in detail but carb intake is essential for muscle growth man.

Extra carbs will first feed/restore glycogen in liver + muslce, then be used for energy, and finally be turned into fat. I am not 100% sure but the muscle want glycogen level to be restored (to what point, I don't know) before it effective build muscle (just my guess).

As for high carbs+high fat diet = BAD for fat gain, I read that in real text from Lyle Mcdonald. My guess is that once the glycogen level in muscle is restored, the fat consumed will be stored verse extra carbs might be used for energy and that energy might be stored; so the fat skip steps (just my guess on mechanism, but the actual concept is from text).

Sorry that I cannot give more detailed answer guys, low-carb + glycogen depletion workout is BAD. Anyhow, increase the carb intake bud.. I don't know how you can manage a 100g carb a day diet btw. I am counting carbs and it's hard to get anywhere near 100g; shoot, I'd be happy with 150g carbs. For example, whey protein scope has 4g carbs and banana has 29g carb...

Try writing down everything, I mean everything that you eat for next 3 days and look up the carb content; you might be surprised. Btw, a large bagel has 79g carbs...

 

[buzz]

You can eat under maintenance and build muscle if your genetics lets you, but most people can't.

genetics has nothing to do with it,you simply cant gain in a defecit,how can you build something out of nothing it isnt physicaly possible.

do a clean bulk, and lift very heavy. Eat only 300-500 calories over maintenance, and do it with clean foods.

whats a clean bulk:confused4: a bulk means eating in exess,wether its 300cls of fat or 300cls of protein its still 300cls exess,and you will gain the same amount of fat by being in that exess.

 

[Chillen]

Here is a very good post, by Steve (stroughtman81 on this forum); a person I respect a lot:

OK, here's the philosophy 101 for you to help you understand what's going on when someone gets stronger without getting bigger.

The weight you lift is an external stressor. When applied properly, it forces the body to adapt. Most commonly, the body adapts anatomically; increased muscle mass and the like. This is what most are familiar with.

However, the body also adapts to this external stress by way of neurological adaptation. And the thing is, both forms of adaptation occur.... it's just the latter is less often talked about.

When you go to lift a weight, you're muscle responds by way of a 'message' sent from the brain. The central nervous system sends electrical impulses through the peripheral nervous system by way of motor neurons until it reaches the motor unit. The motor unit is the point where the motor neuron and muscle meet. The motor unit is classically defined as the alpha motor neuron and all the muscle fibers it innervates.

Sounds fancy, but it's not. Really, it's simply saying:

CNS ----------> Motor Unit -----------> Muscle Fibers

CNS sends impulse, impulse travels through the PNS eventually reaching the end motor neuron where said neuron links itself to the fibers comprising the muscle stimulating a muscular response (contraction).

There are a number of ways the nervous system adapts translating into increased strength. Most commonly discussed are factors such as rate coding, recruitment, and synchronization.

We call the frequency of electrical stimulation from the CNS to the muscle rate coding. As one of the adaptations to strength training, rate coding can increase, which simply means the brain is sending more signals to the muscle per unit of time activating a response. As rate coding is increased so is muscular tension or STRENGTH.

Recruitment is similar in that each impulse will recruit more MUs as it positively adapts leading to more fibers contracting per impulse; this means more strength. A prime example is when you bring someone untrained into the gym and put them on a balanced strength training program. Strength increases drastically over the first month, but muscle mass usually doesn't change much. Untrained individuals have a hard time activating all of their muscle fibers. As they train consistently for the first few weeks, the rate of strength gain can be huge most likely due to the improved coordination of just learning how to recruit more fibers.

The list goes on and on.... but in reality, strength is a complex phenomenon. It's not just about bigger muscles moving bigger weights.


Best wishes,

Chillen

 

[Oldspice]

Lets get back to the point here though guys. Oldspice, you should intake more carbs. My low carb / low calorie diet is making it hard for me remember everything in detail but carb intake is essential for muscle growth man.

Extra carbs will first feed/restore glycogen in liver + muslce, then be used for energy, and finally be turned into fat. I am not 100% sure but the muscle want glycogen level to be restored (to what point, I don't know) before it effective build muscle (just my guess).

As for high carbs+high fat diet = BAD for fat gain, I read that in real text from Lyle Mcdonald. My guess is that once the glycogen level in muscle is restored, the fat consumed will be stored verse extra carbs might be used for energy and that energy might be stored; so the fat skip steps (just my guess on mechanism, but the actual concept is from text).

Sorry that I cannot give more detailed answer guys, low-carb + glycogen depletion workout is BAD. Anyhow, increase the carb intake bud.. I don't know how you can manage a 100g carb a day diet btw. I am counting carbs and it's hard to get anywhere near 100g; shoot, I'd be happy with 150g carbs. For example, whey protein scope has 4g carbs and banana has 29g carb...

Try writing down everything, I mean everything that you eat for next 3 days and look up the carb content; you might be surprised. Btw, a large bagel has 79g carbs...

I count carbs on point bro. I have a protein shake and oatmeal in the morning. 5g of carbs from peanut butter i add and 54g of carbs from the oatmeal. (Technically, your supposed to subtract fiber, but I'm not going to right now) I'll have almonds as a snack, 6g carbs. Tuna mixed with mayo and a few eggs for lunch. A little turkey and peanut butter as a snack. Maybe 3g carbs. Dinner will be a generous amount of chicken breast and vegetables...Veggies barely have any carbs and it's fiber...

How should i increase my carbs? What food sources should i start eating with carbs? Maybe have a bit more oatmeal and some double fiber whole wheat bread? It's hard for me to find good carbs without sugar...

 

[Oldspice]

Here is a very good post, by Steve (stroughtman81 on this forum); a person I respect a lot:

OK, here's the philosophy 101 for you to help you understand what's going on when someone gets stronger without getting bigger.

The weight you lift is an external stressor. When applied properly, it forces the body to adapt. Most commonly, the body adapts anatomically; increased muscle mass and the like. This is what most are familiar with.

However, the body also adapts to this external stress by way of neurological adaptation. And the thing is, both forms of adaptation occur.... it's just the latter is less often talked about.

When you go to lift a weight, you're muscle responds by way of a 'message' sent from the brain. The central nervous system sends electrical impulses through the peripheral nervous system by way of motor neurons until it reaches the motor unit. The motor unit is the point where the motor neuron and muscle meet. The motor unit is classically defined as the alpha motor neuron and all the muscle fibers it innervates.

Sounds fancy, but it's not. Really, it's simply saying:

CNS ----------> Motor Unit -----------> Muscle Fibers

CNS sends impulse, impulse travels through the PNS eventually reaching the end motor neuron where said neuron links itself to the fibers comprising the muscle stimulating a muscular response (contraction).

There are a number of ways the nervous system adapts translating into increased strength. Most commonly discussed are factors such as rate coding, recruitment, and synchronization.

We call the frequency of electrical stimulation from the CNS to the muscle rate coding. As one of the adaptations to strength training, rate coding can increase, which simply means the brain is sending more signals to the muscle per unit of time activating a response. As rate coding is increased so is muscular tension or STRENGTH.

Recruitment is similar in that each impulse will recruit more MUs as it positively adapts leading to more fibers contracting per impulse; this means more strength. A prime example is when you bring someone untrained into the gym and put them on a balanced strength training program. Strength increases drastically over the first month, but muscle mass usually doesn't change much. Untrained individuals have a hard time activating all of their muscle fibers. As they train consistently for the first few weeks, the rate of strength gain can be huge most likely due to the improved coordination of just learning how to recruit more fibers.

The list goes on and on.... but in reality, strength is a complex phenomenon. It's not just about bigger muscles moving bigger weights.


Best wishes,

Chillen

Gotcha, so if you gain strength, that's great, but what about size? The only way is eating over maintenance and rest?

Also, in your opinion what is the best way to eat over maintenance? More carbs, less fat? More fat, less carbs? Regardless, both assume at least 1g of protein per body weight.

 

[tic]

Another thing about strength is that the body have Gogli sensories that stop the body from lifting too much or else it will hurt themselves. Now, there are cases where people (mom) lifitng cars up and saving their child. What happened there is that the brain ignore the Gogli response and went for an all out effort. The child was saved but the mother probably tore a lot of muslce and hurt herself, from a muslce stand point.

Damn, that is a tight diet, Oldspice. Man, I don't know how you can eat so little in a day. I try my butt of to get on that kind of diet but it's very difficult for me; HATS off to you especially since you do not sneak in any "snack."

As for clean carbs, I perfer the slow digesting carbs: Oatmeal, bagels, wheat whole grain, starches (potatoe, corn). Add a little more and spread it thoughout the whole day. It's 4 calore per gram of carbs; fyi. Here is something that I got to doing last year that I used to not do and still feel arkwad doing it; eating 1 cup of cottage cheese before bed. When the body is sleeping, it repairs and rebuild (release a ton of hormones) so eating slow digesting protein (building block for the body) before bed is great. If you can try to eat that within 1 hour of bed. Here is my opinion on % diet: 30 protein, 50 carb, and 20 fat. Yup you actually need 1-1.5 g of protein per LBM so 1g protein per bodyweight will work.

 

[buzz]

It is not really confusing as people make. Get stronger and you will get bigger!!

You will not find too many skinny guys who can bench 400 pounds.

correct but only if you eat enough.