muscle soreness

So the reason we want to constrict bloodflow is because we don't want fluids to go where they shouldn't be? Obviously, fluids being where they shouldn't be isn't good.

So heat comes into the picture when the swelling is gone to improve circulation and thus repair?

Now this is all for injuries, but why no heat treatment for DOMS? DOMS doesn't make you swell up, does it? Or was the heat thing just for alternating heat and cold, like doing contrast showers (which are often recommended) because it ruptures capiliaries?
 
the ice is strictly to reduce imflammation
 
Valentine817 said:
Yes, I've read many contradicting studies about stretching when you are experiencing soreness from micro tears to the fibers. I don't know what is true and what is not about this subjuct anymore.
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There's a large amount of research done on this subject right now, much of which is as inconclusive as the older research.

I tend to rely on the theories involved here, as I don't believe that there is any way to honestly have a control group here, as every individual's reaction to exercise (and resulting tissue damage), not to mention pain thresholds, are different.

The theories are fairly sound: exercise causes microtears, which leads to DOMS and tissue regeneration and adaptation, stretching aids circulation and keeps muscles warm, increased circulation aids in tissue repair (as long as there isn't swelling:sad2:), promoting muscle repair more quickly.

I feel like this is going to be one of the red herrings of the exercise science world for a while to come, until the scientific method allows for qualitative analysis of the rate of tissue repair and adaptation, based upon the individual studied.
 
Karky said:
So the reason we want to constrict bloodflow is because we don't want fluids to go where they shouldn't be? Obviously, fluids being where they shouldn't be isn't good.

So heat comes into the picture when the swelling is gone to improve circulation and thus repair?

Now this is all for injuries, but why no heat treatment for DOMS? DOMS doesn't make you swell up, does it? Or was the heat thing just for alternating heat and cold, like doing contrast showers (which are often recommended) because it ruptures capiliaries?
Click to expand...

The no-heat thing is just for the alternating hot/cold treatment. As far as I've read, DOMS has no intertissue swelling and shouldn't require cold treatment, so the stretching and heat therapy should be used to promote circulation.
 
illiniphase4 said:
There's a large amount of research done on this subject right now, much of which is as inconclusive as the older research.

I tend to rely on the theories involved here, as I don't believe that there is any way to honestly have a control group here, as every individual's reaction to exercise (and resulting tissue damage), not to mention pain thresholds, are different.

The theories are fairly sound: exercise causes microtears, which leads to DOMS and tissue regeneration and adaptation, stretching aids circulation and keeps muscles warm, increased circulation aids in tissue repair (as long as there isn't swelling:sad2:), promoting muscle repair more quickly.

I feel like this is going to be one of the red herrings of the exercise science world for a while to come, until the scientific method allows for qualitative analysis of the rate of tissue repair and adaptation, based upon the individual studied.
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When you say stretching, do you mean stretching after a workout, or stretching throughout the day/days you have DOMS?
If stretching keeps your muscles warm and improves bloodflow, then surely the short time after a workout these factors are improved are very short.

And one simple way to figure this out would be to use the same people in the control group as the other group. Do squats, stretch one quad but not the other. Now, of course, there could be differences between the two muscles, but I bet it would be way better than comparing different people!
 
Karky said:
When you say stretching, do you mean stretching after a workout, or stretching throughout the day/days you have DOMS?
If stretching keeps your muscles warm and improves bloodflow, then surely the short time after a workout these factors are improved are very short.

And one simple way to figure this out would be to use the same people in the control group as the other group. Do squats, stretch one quad but not the other. Now, of course, there could be differences between the two muscles, but I bet it would be way better than comparing different people!
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I've not read anything as to whether or not you can prevent DOMS in any way, and I don't believe that stretching immediately after a workout can affect this. Stretching immediately after a workout is really more for preventing inter/intra-muscular blood pooling and swelling by cooling down muscles in a controlled fashion, which is more for preventing immediate post-workout injury and swelling.

I definitely like your research idea though... now only if I had a PhD and a huge grant to make it happen :).
 
illiniphase4 said:
I've not read anything as to whether or not you can prevent DOMS in any way, and I don't believe that stretching immediately after a workout can affect this. Stretching immediately after a workout is really more for preventing inter/intra-muscular blood pooling and swelling by cooling down muscles in a controlled fashion, which is more for preventing immediate post-workout injury and swelling.

I definitely like your research idea though... now only if I had a PhD and a huge grant to make it happen :).
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lol, I never should have told you the idea, should have waited until I am to write my masters (if I ever will)

However, it has been done before, though not as a means to figure out a way to minimize doms (that I know of) In a study I read people walked down stairs, one leg at a time. With their right leg they went over two steps in one go and with the left leg they just took one step, then they compared DOMS in the two groups. The study was to figure out if the length of the eccentric made a difference to DOMS. (soreness in the supporting leg, of course, the one that does the eccentric) The research was about the "popping sarcomere hypothesis" quite interesting.

Just in case your interested:
 
No problem! I find that hypothesis to be quite interesting. Maybe our muscles adapt quickly to what length we use them at..

Now what I have been thinking about is this: IF the popping sarcomere hypothesis is true, and doing eccentric exercises with large ROM will cause the muscle to increase the number of sarcomeres in series, would that lead to a muscle that is more flexible? Could this then be used to fix posture. For example, could someone with very tight pecs do eccentric DB flyes to increase the flexibility of his pecs and thus help him keep his shoulders back?

I don't know how numbers of sarcomeres in series relates to how flexible, moble, etc a muscle is. But I have heard that the reason we get for example "tight" hip flexors when we sit is because the hip flexors cut sarcomeres in series in order to adapt to them so often being in a shortened position.

Bill Hartman Guest Blog: Stiffness vs. Shortness
Today we have a guest blog from my business partner and physical therapist extraordinaire Bill Hartman. This is a key concept when it comes to designing more effective training programs and getting the intended response.

Enjoy!
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I think it’s important to distinguish between whether a muscle is short or if it is stiff when determining a corrective plan. Treat each case the same and only half of your clients will improve.

A short muscle lacks length. It may be that the muscle is positioned in a shortened position frequently and the muscle fibers have dropped sarcomeres in series or the connective tissues have adaptively shortened.

If you actively and/or passively stabilize the proximal attachment of the muscle and move the joint into a position to stretch the muscle, the proximal attachment will move well before reaching the end range of motion of the joint.

A stiff muscle has greater resistance to stretch. This may be due to hypertrophy or a greater quantity of connective tissues. Think of two rubber bands made of the same material, but one rubber band is wider than the other. The materials would have equal extensibility but because one has greater width, it take more force to stretch it the same length as a thinner band.

In the case of a stiff muscle, if you actively and/or passively stabilize the proximal attachment and move the joint into a position to stretch the muscle, The joint will move through it’s full range of motion without movement at the proximal attachment assuming enough force is applied to stretch the muscle.

Short muscles require repetitive, prolonged stretching to encourage creep of connective tissues and the addition of sarcomeres in series to add length.

Stiff muscles can be corrected by balancing the stiffness across a joint by strengthening their antagonists and by holding the antagonists in a shortened position as they may have been adaptively lengthened over time.

Bill
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from:
 
http://www.liangdianup.com/tobacciana_z.htm

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