Knee Problems..

[i_love_muscle]

and that's where leg extensions can be healthy: LIGHT, and rehab. Most trainers will use those for the VMO, usually doing the last 10-20 degrees of motion to help target that better.

Another way to go, which might feel a little sissy for some people, is doing half or quarter squats. I've even used half or quarter SPLIT squats or bulgarian squats with some success. This, however, is anectodal, and I haven't seen any articles or research on this, just applying how the body works. As soo as you start to feel comfortable enough, start going down a little bit more. One set you can use your feet pointed straight forward, and the other set you can have your feet pointed more to the sides.

Another thing which has been suggested, or doing hamstring exercises. I'm a fan of RDLs and leg curls (only when the legs are propped on a stability ball---> I have no explaination for this, I don't like prone leg curls on a machine)

Warm-ups can also help with stretching out the hamstrings, so you may want to look into some DYNAMIC stretches for the hams.

You won't find an sports physician/orthopedic surgeon up here that will allow any of their patients do leg extensions, particularly in rehab situations after ACL or MCL surgical repairs. They are absolutely verboten due to the load placed on the joint. I love it when my BF sees people doing leg extensions in the gym. He just smiles and says to me "They can see me now or they can see me later. But they'll end up seeing me at some point with a knee problem. Guaranteed."

T-Nation.com | The Truth About Leg Extensions

The half squats are good for rehab, particularly where ROM has been compromised somewhat. Eventually, the individual usually re-establishes optimal ROM.

 

[Karky]

But if you use a light load there won't be a big load placed on the joint. I suppose to point made against the leg press and the load at the knee is that the leg press makes you have a very long lever arm? Well, if you lower the load at the end of the lever arm, the load at the knee will be lowered aswell. Though there are other ways to get that last part of the leg extension ROM to emphasise the VMO, for example with terminal knee extensions (TKE) (stand upright, put a band around your knee, attach it to something in front of you, walk back to put tension in the band, flex the knee slightly and extend it.) I guess doing those would put very little load on the knee while emphasising the VMO.

Also, anyone ever heard anything about VMO activity at the deeper ROM of the squat? I heard somewhere that VMO activity would increase when you got very deep.. but I'm not sure, I just found one study that said there was no difference, but I was wondering if anyone here had heard anything about that?

 

[FunctionalTrain]

You won't find an sports physician/orthopedic surgeon up here that will allow any of their patients do leg extensions, particularly in rehab situations after ACL or MCL surgical repairs. They are absolutely verboten due to the load placed on the joint. I love it when my BF sees people doing leg extensions in the gym. He just smiles and says to me "They can see me now or they can see me later. But they'll end up seeing me at some point with a knee problem. Guaranteed."

T-Nation.com | The Truth About Leg Extensions

The half squats are good for rehab, particularly where ROM has been compromised somewhat. Eventually, the individual usually re-establishes optimal ROM.

I'm not advocating them. I'm with your BF. But I was only expressing why/when/how they are used.

 

[i_love_muscle]

I'm not advocating them. I'm with your BF. But I was only expressing why/when/how they are used.

Gotcha

Karky, I've been told that the best way to fire the VMO first in any leg movement is to consciously put more weight on your heels, like when you're doing a squat. If you have good form (leg placement), you'll feel the VMO firing up first, then the VL, the VR, etc.

 

[FunctionalTrain]

Also, anyone ever heard anything about VMO activity at the deeper ROM of the squat? I heard somewhere that VMO activity would increase when you got very deep.. but I'm not sure, I just found one study that said there was no difference, but I was wondering if anyone here had heard anything about that?

Same here. There hasn't been any conclusive evidence that shows increased VMO activation the lower you go in squats...you'd only find articles showing that hip extensor activation increases the lower you go. Now, let me see if there are studies out there that show stance width and toe direction for VMO activation.

 

[Karky]

Gotcha

Karky, I've been told that the best way to fire the VMO first in any leg movement is to consciously put more weight on your heels, like when you're doing a squat. If you have good form (leg placement), you'll feel the VMO firing up first, then the VL, the VR, etc.

That's the way they should fire? I don't think mine fires that way, couldn't that be due to issues with activating the VMO? I've heard a lot of people have that. Maybe I should start doing some TKEs before my leg workouts..

 

[i_love_muscle]

That's the way they should fire? I don't think mine fires that way, couldn't that be due to issues with activating the VMO? I've heard a lot of people have that. Maybe I should start doing some TKEs before my leg workouts..

Sorry, I didn't make myself very clear there ...

What I should have said was IF you want your VMO to fire first, then you could do it that way.

When you're doing squats, I think everything should be firing up at the same time, especially if you've got some serious weight on your shoulders

Functional, I don't know if this will help you in your search, but when I did ballet, I had relatively massive VMOs (and VLs). Everything in ballet is done with the feet and hips rotated outwards.

And biomechanically, I believe Sumo style deadlifts/squats use less lower back and more hip flexor/knee/quad strength. So there might be something to the placement of the legs/feet.

 

[Karky]

Sorry, I didn't make myself very clear there ...

What I should have said was IF you want your VMO to fire first, then you could do it that way.

When you're doing squats, I think everything should be firing up at the same time, especially if you've got some serious weight on your shoulders

Functional, I don't know if this will help you in your search, but when I did ballet, I had relatively massive VMOs (and VLs). Everything in ballet is done with the feet and hips rotated outwards.

And biomechanically, I believe Sumo style deadlifts/squats use less lower back and more hip flexor/knee/quad strength. So there might be something to the placement of the legs/feet.

I think sumo squats actually put less quad and more hams and back. But it depends a bit what you mean by sumo squat.. The way I think of it is:
A broad stance, very sit back type of squat. You won't be putting your knees much over your toes, some people can almost keep their shins perpendulicar to the floor with this squat, making the quads take less of the torque and transfering the torque more to the hips and lower back (lower back because you have to lean forward more in order to maintain balance when you don't push the knees out much)

 

[FunctionalTrain]

Functional, I don't know if this will help you in your search, but when I did ballet, I had relatively massive VMOs (and VLs). Everything in ballet is done with the feet and hips rotated outwards.

Exactly what I was thinking! This makes me think of plie squats that I see a lot of women do (hate to generalize) to do away with those pesky inner thighs.

 

[i_love_muscle]

I think sumo squats actually put less quad and more hams and back. But it depends a bit what you mean by sumo squat.. The way I think of it is:
A broad stance, very sit back type of squat. You won't be putting your knees much over your toes, some people can almost keep their shins perpendulicar to the floor with this squat, making the quads take less of the torque and transfering the torque more to the hips and lower back (lower back because you have to lean forward more in order to maintain balance when you don't push the knees out much)

Yep. But if you have a crappy lower back, Sumo squats/DLs are actually easier to do than regular squats/DLs. I prefer Sumo squats to regular squats because they are easier for me to do. And I always keep my knees over my second toe, regardless of my stance

Here's something I found:
And another one: (that was the Special Olympics ...)
And yet another: But that's just for knees

 

[Karky]

Yep. But if you have a crappy lower back, Sumo squats/DLs are actually easier to do than regular squats/DLs. I prefer Sumo squats to regular squats because they are easier for me to do. And I always keep my knees over my second toe, regardless of my stance

Here's something I found:
And another one: (that was the Special Olympics ...)
And yet another: But that's just for knees

SUmo DLs would be easier since it allows you to keep the back more upright. But sumo squats, the way I described them, would put more weight on the lower back. But again, that's just from what I associate with the sumo squat, I don't know exactly what you mean.

 

[Karky]

James, check this out on the rotation thing:
Squat Analysis
I know you've read that before, but it cites someone on the rotation issue, so that might be a place to start looking.

 

[FunctionalTrain]

agreed. and love that website. I actually had the chance to meet the author of the study cited, Steven Fleck, last year at a strength and conditioning clinic in Wisconsin. Him and another collegue were presenting proper foot mechanics in squats, plyometrics, agility drills...etc. And one of the big messages that was taken from this was "keep your toes pointed forward...always." Risk of injury and muscle imbalances are the prime concerns.

I will disagree, however, that this type of squat reduces stability. Maybe at a specific joint. IMO, you are increasing your BASE of support when you point toes outward.

I will quote the article

foot rotation to selectively strengthen individual muscles of the quadriceps is not supported by the literature

and follow up with this guy:



a little more recent. And the study from ExRx, I read as it will not TARGET a specific quad muscle. But that is not the saying that it doesn't activate certain muscles more.

 

[Karky]

I thought it wasn't toes pointing forward, but toes pointing in the same direction as the knees.. Most people will use a stance wider than hip width when squatting making their femurs have to not only flex straigth up but also a bit to the side (please excuse me not knowing enough about planes of motion to explain this correctly.. a short lecture would be nice ) if the femur and knees are pointed a bit outward like that, wouldn't pointing the toes straigth ahead actually be internal rotation?

 

[FunctionalTrain]

I thought it wasn't toes pointing forward, but toes pointing in the same direction as the knees.. Most people will use a stance wider than hip width when squatting making their femurs have to not only flex straigth up but also a bit to the side (please excuse me not knowing enough about planes of motion to explain this correctly.. a short lecture would be nice ) if the femur and knees are pointed a bit outward like that, wouldn't pointing the toes straigth ahead actually be internal rotation?

When people use a wide stance, femur is abducted. With femur abducted from the original anatomical position, the toes should still be pointed forward. To get the toes pointed outward, they externally rotate the femur. If the knees and toes aren't pointed in the same direction, then you could have some serious issues.

 

[i_love_muscle]

SUmo DLs would be easier since it allows you to keep the back more upright. But sumo squats, the way I described them, would put more weight on the lower back. But again, that's just from what I associate with the sumo squat, I don't know exactly what you mean.

I mean a wider-stance squat with feet angled at about 45°. So when I go down, my knees follow my second toe all the way down and all the way up. They don't move forward at all when I come up.

I can keep a pretty straight back doing that because my hips and ankles are really flexible. My lower back isn't so flexible anymore. I have to keep it perfectly neutral and as erect as possible.

So my hips/knees take most of the punishment. And I feel it. But my back is happy

 

[Big_Idiot]

Well had a positive nice physio sesh

The lass who did it, is one of the people at my gym whos just come first in a BB comp and shes in her 40's! I was getting horny when she was massaging my quads because i was in my boxers and she kept sliding her hands up and touching my balls

Anyway, she reckons its just my quad thats had too much stress on it and one of the muscles in it maybe weaker than the others. She did checks to see if it was my knee directly but there was no pain so its not that.

She massaged my quads for a while and did this ultra scan sh1t to help heal scar tissue that could be there.

She even advises that i keep training legs, but go up gradually in weight and work of perfect form and technique. Also she said break your leg session up for now instead of doing all the lifts in one session. Because of all stress on the lower part of my quad.

So hopefully we shoud be good

 

[FunctionalTrain]

well that good to hear, Big T. At least she said it wasn't a huge problem, and that it wasn't specifically your knee. Try to keep the other Big T down if you have to go see her again. Use strong tape or something.

I'm kinda pumped because that's the sort of stuff I'll be doing in about 2 years...minus the ball messages.

 

[Big_Idiot]

Lmao FT

 

[Karky]

When people use a wide stance, femur is abducted. With femur abducted from the original anatomical position, the toes should still be pointed forward. To get the toes pointed outward, they externally rotate the femur. If the knees and toes aren't pointed in the same direction, then you could have some serious issues.

If you take a wide stance without externally rotating your femur (so you keep the toes pointed straight ahead) the tibia would have to rotate as you descend, wouldn't it? That being if your knees travel in a way that keeps them over the foot, not on the inside of the foot (which would be done by just pushing the knees forward + hip motion of course, which would mean that the feet are placed further out than the knees, which could again cause problems with the knees)

It's really hard to explain what I'm thinking, but basically, if your knees are pointed outward (which they will be unless you descend like I described above, by just pushing your knees out straight forward, + hip motion of course), and your toes straight ahead, there has to be rotation somewhere since the feet are normally in line with the knees. So thus, keeping the feet in line with the knees would be a good recommendation.

In other words, when taking a wide stance you should externally rotate the femur. I think we agree, but I'm not sure