To all you animal protein, atkins diet etc fans

This isn't a "scientific" website you ****ing nerd.

This hurt my feelings. And, I'm quite certain, the feelings of every other real nerd, everywhere.

Sort of like how a gorilla would feel if you called an epileptic baby suricate a silverback.

Edit: Also, Phate, are you sure you know what Hafiz means? I mean it sort of makes sense, given the context, but when employing a takbir it is generally better to go with Allahu Akbar.
 
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As much as you say this isn't a scientific website, it is. I know you say 'fuk science', but you're the only one.

Getting back on topic, every have a read (condensed for your reading enjoyment ;)):

By the title, one would expect The China Study to contain objective and complete information derived from the China Study. Page one touts "real science" above "junk science" and "fad diets." Yet Campbell consistently presents only half the story at best through the duration of the book. In Part II, Campbell presents the evidence incriminating animal products as the cause of nearly every disease. He cites several health care practitioners, including Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn Jr. and Dr. Dean Ornish, who claim to have been able to reverse heart disease with plant-based diets,34 and cites the Papua New Guinea Highlanders as an example of a traditional society without the occurrence of heart disease, but makes no mention of George Mann’s and other researcherS’ extensive study of the Masai or the healthy primitives of Weston Price. That the programs of Ornish and Esselstyn involved more than abstention from animal foods--especially the program of Ornish, of which diet is only a small part--is not seen as a confounding factor that detracts from our ability to incriminate animal foods in heart disease. Nor does he bother to mention the cannibalism or the swollen bellies of children that accompanies the protein-starved diet of the New Guinea Highlanders.35

In Campbell’s discussion of diabetes, he concludes that "high-fiber, whole, plant-based foods protect against diabetes, and high-fat, high-protein, animal-based foods promote diabetes."36 He discusses the possible role of cow’s milk in causing Type 1 diabetes via an autoimmune reaction,37 but makes no mention that wheat gluten has been implicated in Type 1 diabetes by a similar process.38 He similarly fails to mention the role of fructose consumption in causing insulin resistance,39,40 and the increase in high fructose corn syrup consumption that has paralleled the increase in diabetes.

Campbell discusses the role of animal foods in causing prostate cancer,41 but makes no mention of the potent preventative role current research is attributing to vitamin A, a nutrient found in animal foods.42 He devotes 19 pages to discussing the role of cow’s milk in causing autoimmune diseases,43 but zero pages to the role of wheat gluten in causing autoimmune diseases.44 Campbell suggests that dietary fat and cholesterol contribute to Alzheimer’s and discusses the potential protective effects of plant foods,45 but makes no mention of the protective effect of DHA, an animal-based nutrient, currently under investigation.46

The China Study frequently ignores the contribution of animal foods to certain classes of nutrients, such as B vitamins and carotenes. Both classes of nutrients are assumed to come from plant foods, despite egg yolks and milk from pastured animals being a good source of carotenes, and the high B vitamin content of liver. But the most curious of such statements is one found on page 220, where Campbell declares, "Folic acid is a compound derived exclusively from plant-based foods such as green and leafy vegetables."47 This is a fascinating statement, considering that chicken liver contains 5.76 mcg/g of folate, compared to 1.46 mcg/g for spinach!48 A cursory look through the USDA database reveals that the most folate-dense foods are organ meats.

The China Study contains many excellent points in its criticism of the health care system, the overemphasis on reductionism in nutritional research, the influence of industry on research, and the necessity of obtaining nutrients from foods. But its bias against animal products and in favor of veganism permeates every chapter and every page. Less than a page of comments are spent in total discussing the harms of refined carbohydrate products. Campbell exercises caution when generalizing from casein to plant proteins, but freely generalizes from casein to animal protein. He entirely ignores the role of wheat gluten, a plant product, in autoimmune diseases, so he can emphasize the role of milk protein, an animal product. The book, while not entirely without value, is not about the China Study, nor is it a comprehensive look at the current state of health research. It would be more aptly titled, A Comprehensive Case for the Vegan Diet, and the reader should be cautioned that the evidence is selected, presented, and interpreted with the goal of making that case in mind.
 
so you say there's not enough scientific discussion on this site, but when you try to make an argument you don't back it up with any science what so ever, just a book? That's why I say post some studies. If you want to discuss science, then you must make a point with science, that is why I tell you to post a study in support of your view.
 
Khoda Hafiz = Good bye in Persian.

Actually, it means something like, "I leave you in the protection of God." Just as Salaam Aleykum means something like, "Peace be upon you." Used like goodbye, sure, but that's not actually what it "means".

It certainly works either way, but Hafiz can also mean one who is extremely versed in the Qur'an. So we could interpret what you said to have been calling young matt a peerless dogmatist. Which is very funny, I think, given his interactions here. I wasn't correcting you so much as hoping for this possibility. :p

Allahu akbar or Salaam Aleykum on the other hand don't really leave room for any other interpretation. But I suppose that wouldn't be much fun, now, would it?
 
so you say there's not enough scientific discussion on this site, but when you try to make an argument you don't back it up with any science what so ever, just a book? That's why I say post some studies. If you want to discuss science, then you must make a point with science, that is why I tell you to post a study in support of your view.

See. Whats the point though?

He posts a study that proves his view, then you find another study that proves your view. And it just keeps going on and on trying to disprove each other with these "scientific studies". Such a waste of time.

Mreik: There might be a lot of scientific discussion on this website that deals with nutrition ( and some of it is pretty useful ) but the rest are just...ugh.
 
Actually, it means something like, "I leave you in the protection of God." Just as Salaam Aleykum means something like, "Peace be upon you." Used like goodbye, sure, but that's not actually what it "means".

It certainly works either way, but Hafiz can also mean one who is extremely versed in the Qur'an. So we could interpret what you said to have been calling young matt a peerless dogmatist. Which is very funny, I think, given his interactions here. I wasn't correcting you so much as hoping for this possibility. :p

Allahu akbar or Salaam Aleykum on the other hand don't really leave room for any other interpretation. But I suppose that wouldn't be much fun, now, would it?

Look. I know you like to have fun googling words you don't understand and try to challenge me. But I am pretty sure you don't speak Farsi fluently and don't understand the culture and context Khoda Hafiz and Salaam alaikum is used in. Just like salaam alaikum means peace be upon you and Khoda ( god ) Hafiz means whatever you just said. In our language they are used the same as "good bye".
 
See. Whats the point though?

He posts a study that proves his view, then you find another study that proves your view. And it just keeps going on and on trying to disprove each other with these "scientific studies". Such a waste of time.

Not really. There aren't any studies that prove his view. And tons of studies, and plenty of anecdotal evidence (or the "experience" you're so fond of - like it's any different, lol) to contradict it. However, as Karks says, the onus is on him to prove what he says, not us to disprove it. He won't do so, however, as his intent is not discourse, but rather discord. ;)

Mreik: There might be a lot of scientific discussion on this website that deals with nutrition ( and some of it is pretty useful ) but the rest are just...ugh.

Experience is science. See above.
 
Not really. There aren't any studies that prove his view. And tons of studies, and plenty of anecdotal evidence (or the "experience" you're so fond of - like it's any different, lol) to contradict it. However, as Karks says, the onus is on him to prove what he says, not us to disprove it. He won't do so, however, as his intent is not discourse, but rather discord. ;)



Experience is science. See above.

See thats my point. Instead of fighting over an idea that is best for EVERYBODY why don't people do what works for them?

If you notice that you are healthier eating-read meat and a high fat/protein diet. And that your strength increases, your cholestrol goes down, etc. Then eat meat.

If you notice your blood pressure or cholestrol rises, then don't eat meat.

You people are trying to generalize everything, and its not like that because everyone is different. I've met people who went on the Anabolic diet eating tons of eggs, red meat, fatty foods ( not processed ) and their health dramatically improved.

I've also met people that went on the same diet and their blood pressure and cholestrol went through the roof.

So, make experience your science. Thats my point.
 
Look. I know you like to have fun googling words you don't understand and try to challenge me. But I am pretty sure you don't speak Farsi fluently and don't understand the culture and context Khoda Hafiz and Salaam alaikum is used in. Just like salaam alaikum means peace be upon you and Khoda ( god ) Hafiz means whatever you just said. In our language they are used the same as "good bye".

Uhm, Phate. Point of fact: I have been speaking Farsi since I was 8 months old. Well before you learned to crawl, I suspect. I am also an "Iranian" citizen, who was born in that land, and can trace my lineage back to the time of Zoroaster. I'm more Persian than anyone!

Now, what I'm pretty sure of is that you like to make silly assumptions because you get your panties in a twist every time someone says anything rational or even remotely conflicting, or both. I suspect this is because you have what is called an inferiority complex. Or as Jung would put it, your shadow is showing.

Anyway, settle down.
 
Uhm, Phate. Point of fact: I have been speaking Farsi since I was 8 months old. Well before you learned to crawl, I suspect. I am also an "Iranian" citizen, who was born in that land, and can trace my lineage back to the time of Zoroaster. I'm more Persian than anyone!

Now, what I'm pretty sure of is that you like to make silly assumptions because you get your panties in a twist every time someone says anything rational or even remotely conflicting, or both. I suspect this is because you have what is called an inferiority complex. Or as Jung would put it, your shadow is showing.

Anyway, settle down.

Then you would know that Khoda Hafiz is used as good-bye......................
 
So, make experience your science. Thats my point.

Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with that at all. I agree 100%. You've just never expressed it this cogently before.

Where we disagree is in your insistence on a differentiation between "science" and "experience", like they aren't synonyms. From what you've just said, you believe that cookie cutting is stupid, which I think we can all agree upon, but have a great regard for the scientific method.

Thing is, though, without the generalities you seem to despise so much, how would you know what to try in the first place? Random instinct? Do you really believe it makes more sense for every generation to reinvent the wheel before making progress rather than standing on the shoulders of the giants that came before?
 
Then you would know that Khoda Hafiz is used as good-bye......................

Sometimes I really worry about your reading comprehension. Do something for me? Look back and tell me where I said anything about Khoda Hafiz not being typically used in place of good-bye. You said it "mean"s goodbye. That's something very different. Then I said it doesn't "mean" goodbye, but not even as a correction - rather to segue into what I thought was an amusinteresting tidbit.

Turn down the sensitivity, turn up the attention to detail please. :)
 
See. Whats the point though?

He posts a study that proves his view, then you find another study that proves your view. And it just keeps going on and on trying to disprove each other with these "scientific studies". Such a waste of time.

Mreik: There might be a lot of scientific discussion on this website that deals with nutrition ( and some of it is pretty useful ) but the rest are just...ugh.

No, he posts a study that backs his view, I read it and find out that the study doesn't take all the variables into account. Too many studies are done with tons of people, some eat red meat, some don't, then you see after 20 years who is dead, sick, etc, then you make a conclusion about that. Now the only thing you know is who ate read and who ate white meat. You don't know which group drank the most, smoked, etc. Studies like this with pretty much no control don't mean anything and don't prove anything.

Now this was an extreme example, sometimes more factors are controlled, but you can't control everything in long time studies.

A lot of people make the argument that most vegetarians live longer than non vegetarians, well, guess what, most vegetarians are A LOT more conscious about what they eat than non vegatarians, so they will usually eat healthier. If you took people who ate meat and people who didn't and both groups were equally conscious about eating, I'm willing to bet you'd get different results.
 
Have you ever heard anyone ever using Khoda Hafiz in any other context than good bye?

Yes. I'm sure when he was particularly obnoxious about his preaching or reciting the various poems he'd memorized, his family, friends and teachers would occasionally say something like, "Khoda, Hafiz! Khafeh sho!"
 
Bebakhshid. I grew up learning that Khoda Hafiz means good-bye ( since it's used as good bye ) with our families. Didn't know it has any other meaning.
 
Bebakhshid. I grew up learning that Khoda Hafiz means good-bye ( since it's used as good bye ) with our families. Didn't know it has any other meaning.

I was actually mostly kidding about that last part. But let's have some fun with allegory. I hope you can see how this is directly related to everything I've been trying to impart to you just now:

A man moves to America from China, to a small town called Lulzville, where everyone he meets greets him with, "Duck!" After some months, he visits a neighboring village where he tells a man, "Duck!" The man immediately falls flat to the floor. Some time later, after a good laugh, the man tries to explain to him that the word duck doesn't actually mean hello, but he refuses to believe him, as all of his previous experience indicates that the word duck is a simple greeting. After a couple of pleasant years living in Lulzville, this man moves to a bigger community called Rofltown. Shortly after he steps out of the taxi, he sees a man, and the man yells, "Duck!" He thinks to himself, "My, these people are very friendly. I think I shall like it here." Then a piano falls on him, crushing every organ in his body and shattering every bone. He is killed instantly. The coroners who prepare his body start a betting pool as to why he died with a big ****-eating grin on his face.

^ This is why we can't have nice things.

P.S. The Persian word for goodbye is bedrood. Just for future reference, there, Captain Tight Pants.
 
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Actually there's quite overwhelming evidence that red meat is associated with disease - particularly colon cancer. You only have to type it in google to save me from posting it.

We aren't designed to eat red meat anyway, contrary to what many people believe. So show me your proof Phate you dumbc***. ;)
 
Actually there's quite overwhelming evidence that red meat is associated with disease - particularly colon cancer. You only have to type it in google to save me from posting it.

We aren't designed to eat red meat anyway, contrary to what many people believe. So show me your proof Phate you dumbc***. ;)

Why so serious?

Evidently, you didn't read a word I said and you aren't worth it either.

Chill out and eat a salad matty boy rofl
 
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