EC+EGCG Stack, Low Int or High, + Weight Training.

[enz660]

Just started an EC+EGCG Stack after spending way too much money on Lipo 6, just have a bunch of questions regarding cutting and which methods would work best.

1. Low Intensity burns more fat? Your kidding right?
I tried low intensity cardio today on my elliptical, I nearly fell asleep. The only thing that kept me awake was trying to keep my heart rate under 120bpm. Since ive started cutting, I went from roughly 180 to 170 in one month on Lipo 6 and Doing 20min of Medium-High Intensity Cardio, which burns around 200 calories (according to the screen on my eliptical) I would imagine myself needing to spend a good hour or so burning the same amount of calories doing LI Cardio? Will this really make a huge negative difference if I opt for the High Intensity vs Low?

2. Low Intensity after Weight Training?
Obviously I will be low on energy after weight training, but want to start doing cardio after to boost fat burning results. How many minutes is optimal for some increased fat burning for post weight training situations? Or should I simply skip it and eat instead?

Here is what my training routine looks like:

Sun: Rest
Mon: 20-30min Cardio (Medium-High Intensity) ~250cals burned
Tues: 60min Weight Training
Wed:20-30min Cardio (Medium-High Intensity) ~250cals burned
Thurs:20-30min Cardio (Medium-High Intensity) ~250cals burned
Fri:60min Weight Training
Sat:20-30min Cardio (Medium-High Intensity) ~250cals burned


I don't want to wait too long after I workout to get some food in my stomach, if I do cardio after, will it lengthen my post workout meal opportunity?

3. Pre, During, and Post Nutrition.

Here is what I sill probably start doing...

-CARDIO:

Protein Shake (25g) Before Cardio, No Carbs to ensure that fat us USED

30min Medium-High Intensity cardio

Protein After(25g), Wait 90min before eating carbs...

-WEIGHT TRAINING

Protein Shake (25g) & Carbs (small meal, eg. apple, banana) Before for energy

SIP on protein shake (25g) DURING workout (+ Lots of Water)

Protein Shake (25g) & Large Carb + Protein Meal

**based on this article**



For my protein shakes, I use Optimum Nutrition 100% Whey, so its got some BCAA's and other good stuff other than protein thrown in. I read that if you do High Intensity cardio, you can eat carbs right after and it will simply refill glycogen levels and the cardio session wont be wasted? Is this true?


IS this too much protein? Too little Carbs? etc..

Any & All input would be greatly appreciated.

*note: my calorie intake is around 1800-2000 cals for cutting

 

[enz660]

bump


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[BikeSwimLaugh]

Questions regarding cutting and which methods would work best.

1. Low Intensity burns more fat? Your kidding right?
I tried low intensity cardio today on my elliptical, I nearly fell asleep. The only thing that kept me awake was trying to keep my heart rate under 120bpm. Will this really make a huge negative difference if I opt for the High Intensity vs Low?

No dude....no!

Low-intensity may burn a greater percentage of fat (relative to glycogen)....but overall you'll burn more fat with a higher-intensity exercise.

Let me illustrate with a weird analogy:

Let's say low-intensity is a box that contains 5 units of fat-burn and 3 units of glycogen-burn. And high-intensity is a box that contains 3 units of fat-burn and 6 units of glycogen-burn.

So if you only carry ONE box, then carrying a low-intensity box will result in more fat being burned....but low-intensity happens at a slow-rate, let's say you can only carry 2 boxes in an hour....so in an hour you've burned (2x5) 10 units of fat-burn.

Now, when you carry high-intensity you're moving faster, you can carry 5 boxes per hour, so after one hour you've burned (5x3) 15 units of fat-burn.

So I hope you get it...low-intensity does burn a great proportion of fat, but overall, high-intensity will burn MORE overall fat....

Additionally, low-intensity only burns calories/fat as you perform the exercise....whereas high-intensity generally burns calories/fat as you perform the exercise AND your body continues to burn calories for a prolonged period after you're done exercising (EPOC).

Dude...if you've got the energy, hit it! Hit it hard, pound the cardio and get it in. More IS more. I run medium intensity with interval burst of high-intensity. Low intensity and long walks are for senior citizens, obese people starting-out in horrible shape or people who eat junk food. Melt that damn fat off your body, sweat till your saturated and be righteous!!

2. Low Intensity after Weight Training?
Obviously I will be low on energy after weight training, but want to start doing cardio after to boost fat burning results.

It's a good idea. The theory follows that weight-training requires a great deal of energy and ideally you shouldn't perform weight-training for more then an hour: after an hour you're energy supplies are pretty tapped and your blood-sugar is low....all the blood-sugar, glycogen in the liver and muscle-stored glycogen is tapped. Continuing to do hard work could result (in theory) in catabolism...where your body de-natures the protein in surrounding muscle-tissue to help fuel the needs. Not good to continue.....BUT, a low-intensity exercise would be fine because (in theory) your body can burn fat fast enough to fuel low-intensity exercise...and so many people will do 30-minutes or an hour of light-cardio to follow-up their weight-training in an effort to make the most of their low blood-sugar condition and wease some fat-burn.

If you don't mind me adding this....we can talk science, thoery and approach all day long, but in the end it's really just as simple as eating healthy, working the muscles, getting-in some cardio and (to lose weight) taking in less calories then are exerted. That and fantasizing about the Swedish Bikini Team!

 

[enz660]

It's a good idea. The theory follows that weight-training requires a great deal of energy and ideally you shouldn't perform weight-training for more then an hour: after an hour you're energy supplies are pretty tapped and your blood-sugar is low....all the blood-sugar, glycogen in the liver and muscle-stored glycogen is tapped. Continuing to do hard work could result (in theory) in catabolism...where your body de-natures the protein in surrounding muscle-tissue to help fuel the needs. Not good to continue.....BUT, a low-intensity exercise would be fine because (in theory) your body can burn fat fast enough to fuel low-intensity exercise...and so many people will do 30-minutes or an hour of light-cardio to follow-up their weight-training in an effort to make the most of their low blood-sugar condition and wease some fat-burn.

If you don't mind me adding this....we can talk science, thoery and approach all day long, but in the end it's really just as simple as eating healthy, working the muscles, getting-in some cardio and (to lose weight) taking in less calories then are exerted. That and fantasizing about the Swedish Bikini Team!

What about the post workout meal window? Isn't it around 30min after weight training? Why do people lift weights and instead of eating right away, they do an hour of cardio and lose their post workout meal opportunity?

 

[Wrangell]

Just started an EC+EGCG Stack after spending way too much money on Lipo 6, just have a bunch of questions regarding cutting and which methods would work best.

1. Low Intensity burns more fat? Your kidding right?
I tried low intensity cardio today on my elliptical, I nearly fell asleep. The only thing that kept me awake was trying to keep my heart rate under 120bpm. Since ive started cutting, I went from roughly 180 to 170 in one month on Lipo 6 and Doing 20min of Medium-High Intensity Cardio, which burns around 200 calories (according to the screen on my eliptical) I would imagine myself needing to spend a good hour or so burning the same amount of calories doing LI Cardio? Will this really make a huge negative difference if I opt for the High Intensity vs Low?

Losing fat is all about losing calories.

Generally speaking, the harder - i.e the more' intensely ' you exercise - the more calories you burn / lose. And, the more calories you lose via exercise, the more fat you will lose.

So, when given a choice with respect to optimizing fat loss, I'd opt for High Intensity.

2. Low Intensity after Weight Training?
Obviously I will be low on energy after weight training, but want to start doing cardio after to boost fat burning results. How many minutes is optimal for some increased fat burning for post weight training situations? Or should I simply skip it and eat instead?

Again, you want to burn as many calories as you can for given period of time of actual exercise ( and afterwards ) to optimize fat loss, so if you want to optimize fat loss , I'd do HIIT ( 20 - 30 minutes ) after weight training.

-CARDIO:

Protein Shake (25g) Before Cardio, No Carbs to ensure that fat us USED

30min Medium-High Intensity cardio

I wasn't able to launch your link.

If you need no carbs before, then why do you need so much protein before cardio ?

btw - how soon ( i.e minutes ) ' before cardio ' are you talking about here ?

Protein After(25g), Wait 90min before eating carbs.

What is the rationale for waiting 90 minutes. ?.

-WEIGHT TRAINING

Protein Shake (25g) & Carbs (small meal, eg. apple, banana) Before for energy

SIP on protein shake (25g) DURING workout (+ Lots of Water)

Protein Shake (25g) & Large Carb + Protein Meal

Do you have to wait for 90 minutes in this case as well ? If not, why not ?

For my protein shakes, I use Optimum Nutrition 100% Whey, so its got some BCAA's and other good stuff other than protein thrown in. I read that if you do High Intensity cardio, you can eat carbs right after and it will simply refill glycogen levels and the cardio session wont be wasted? Is this true?

What do you mean by " the cardio session wont be wasted " exactly ?

 

[enz660]

alright I updated the links. Basically I think the article stated that you don't want to eat carbs before cardio because you wont burn anything, instead you will simply use the carbs you just ate.

"Before Eating nothing before cardio has always been the ideal. Cardio uses bodyfat as fuel and the amount of carbohydrates in the bloodstream influences your body's ability to maximize fat burning. If there are a lot of carbs in your bloodstream from a recent meal, then fat-burning decreases. If there's but a scant amount of carbs in your blood, fat-burning skyrockets. That's what makes cardio in the morning on an empty stomach so effective. No carbs in the blood--especially after an overnight fast--elevates your ability to melt away bodyfat."

New research shows that fat burning can be enhanced even further if you take amino acids before your cardio workout. We recommend going with three to six grams (g) of an amino acid product that contains alanine, arginine, cysteine, glutamic acid, glycine, histidine, isoleucine, leucine, lysine, methionine, phenylalanine, serine, threonine, tryptophan, tyrosine and valine. Another option is to go with 10-20 g of pure whey protein isolate or hydrolysate. Just be sure the product contains no carbs or fat."

After Consume plenty of protein. Even cardio work can create a catabolic state, and protein can help put an end to that. Specifically, whey protein and egg whites top the list as premier postcardio protein sources. They hit the bloodstream faster than any other amino acid source, helping to prevent muscle loss. You need some carbohydrates after cardio, but it's best to wait 90 minutes before ingesting them. That's because carbs cause a rise in insulin, which may override the fat-burning hormones released from cardio. At the 90-minute mark, you may eat carbs. Specifically, go for slow-burning ones such as oatmeal, rye bread, yams or yogurt. Take in 40-80 g of carbs and eat these with a whole-food protein source such as meat, steak or eggs. These carbs cause a more moderate release of insulin. Keeping insulin levels in check after cardio is important in burning as much fat as possible."

the 90min mark doesn't apply for weight training nutrition because the goal isn't to burn fat really.

 

[Wrangell]

alright I updated the links. Basically I think the article stated that you don't want to eat carbs before cardio because you wont burn anything, instead you will simply use the carbs you just ate.

"Before Eating nothing before cardio has always been the ideal. Cardio uses bodyfat as fuel and the amount of carbohydrates in the bloodstream influences your body's ability to maximize fat burning. If there are a lot of carbs in your bloodstream from a recent meal, then fat-burning decreases. If there's but a scant amount of carbs in your blood, fat-burning skyrockets. That's what makes cardio in the morning on an empty stomach so effective. No carbs in the blood--especially after an overnight fast--elevates your ability to melt away bodyfat.".

Alan Aragon would take issue with that sort of ' broad brush ' conclusion....

" • At low intensities (25-50% VO2 max), carbs during exercise reduce fat oxidation compared to fasted trainees.
• At moderate intensities (63-68% VO2 max) carbs during exercise may reduce fat oxidation in untrained subjects, but do not reduce fat oxidation in trained subjects for at least the first 80-120 minutes of exercise.
• Carbohydrate during exercise spares liver glycogen, which is among the most critical factors for anticatabolism during hypocaloric & other conditions of metabolic stress. This protective hepatic effect is absent in fasted cardio.
• At the established intensity level of peak fat oxidation (~63% VO2 max), carbohydrate increases performance without any suppression of fat oxidation in trained subjects. "​

...suggesting that fasted cardio has benefits perhaps in only limited situations.

New research shows that fat burning can be enhanced even further if you take amino acids before your cardio workout. We recommend going with three to six grams (g) of an amino acid product that contains alanine, arginine, cysteine, glutamic acid, glycine, histidine, isoleucine, leucine, lysine, methionine, phenylalanine, serine, threonine, tryptophan, tyrosine and valine. Another option is to go with 10-20 g of pure whey protein isolate or hydrolysate. Just be sure the product contains no carbs or fat."

And what happens if you simply don't have any protein, carbs or fat before cardio ?

In fact, didn't he say ..." Eating nothing before cardio has always been the ideal " ?

After Consume plenty of protein. Even cardio work can create a catabolic state, and protein can help put an end to that. Specifically, whey protein and egg whites top the list as premier postcardio protein sources.

But if you take 25 grams of protein before cardio - why do you then have to also take yet another 25 grams a scant 30 minutes afterwards as well ?

There should be plenty of amino acids still in your bloodstream after cardio ( due to your pre-workout protein ) without needing protein after cardio as well don't you think ?

And the only time your body turns to protein for energy - in a big way - is when your glycogen stores a very low and or your cortisol levels are elevated...and this is usually only prevalent during more demanding endurance cardio.

I doubt that 20-30min Cardio (Medium-High Intensity) - as you're now doing - is going to draw on protein as an energy source in any significant sort of way to warrant taking 50 grams of protein.

They hit the bloodstream faster than any other amino acid source, helping to prevent muscle loss. You need some carbohydrates after cardio, but it's best to wait 90 minutes before ingesting them. That's because carbs cause a rise in insulin, which may override the fat-burning hormones released from cardio. At the 90-minute mark, you may eat carbs.

Then again, the sooner you ingest carbs, the sooner your body can convert those carbs to glucose and the sooner it can burn fat ( to get the energy it needs ) to convert that glucose to replace ( create ) the glycogen you used up during exercise. And ,the enzymes your body uses to create this glycogen are most readily available within 15 minutes after cardio- not after 90 minutes.

 

[enz660]

so what would you suggest I do pre and post cardio? What should I intake before and after and how many minutes before and after? What I used to do is eat an apple 30min before medium-high intensity cardio, then have a protein shake and some lean carbs (small salad, no dressing) I try to replace complex starchy carbs with veggies, ideally, going throughout the day without eating any bread.

 

[Wrangell]

so what would you suggest I do pre cardio?

What should I intake before and after and how many minutes before and after?

If possible, you just want something around 200 - 300 of easily digested calories ( mostly carbs ), with a bit of protein and fat, if you can, ideally taken about an hour or so before you do your cardio. Some ideas might include....

- energy bar and a sports drink
- cup of yogurt and some fruit
- bagel with banana and peanut butter....or cheese
- glass of juice and banana & peanut butter
- crackers, apple and a yogurt or cottage cheese
- jam filled cereal bar / granola bar with skim milk​

.....and after cardio, you can pretty much stick to the same basic script IMO .....a snack or small meal consisting mostly of carbs with a bit of protein and fat. And you can have a snack either in the locker room right after your workout or simply wait to have it when you get home.

What I used to do is eat an apple 30min before medium-high intensity cardio, then have a protein shake and some lean carbs (small salad, no dressing) I try to replace complex starchy carbs with veggies, ideally, going throughout the day without eating any bread.

Not sure I follow...what is wrong with complex starchy carbs & bread ?

They're both excellent sources of carbs to fuel training.

 

[BikeSwimLaugh]

"Before Eating nothing before cardio has always been the ideal. Cardio uses bodyfat as fuel and the amount of carbohydrates in the bloodstream influences your body's ability to maximize fat burning. If there are a lot of carbs in your bloodstream from a recent meal, then fat-burning decreases. If there's but a scant amount of carbs in your blood, fat-burning skyrockets. That's what makes cardio in the morning on an empty stomach so effective. No carbs in the blood--especially after an overnight fast--elevates your ability to melt away bodyfat."

New research shows that fat burning can be enhanced even further if you take amino acids before your cardio workout. We recommend going with three to six grams (g) of an amino acid product that contains alanine, arginine, cysteine, glutamic acid, glycine, histidine, isoleucine, leucine, lysine, methionine, phenylalanine, serine, threonine, tryptophan, tyrosine and valine. Another option is to go with 10-20 g of pure whey protein isolate or hydrolysate. Just be sure the product contains no carbs or fat."

After Consume plenty of protein. Even cardio work can create a catabolic state, and protein can help put an end to that. Specifically, whey protein and egg whites top the list as premier postcardio protein sources. They hit the bloodstream faster than any other amino acid source, helping to prevent muscle loss. You need some carbohydrates after cardio, but it's best to wait 90 minutes before ingesting them. That's because carbs cause a rise in insulin, which may override the fat-burning hormones released from cardio. At the 90-minute mark, you may eat carbs. Specifically, go for slow-burning ones such as oatmeal, rye bread, yams or yogurt. Take in 40-80 g of carbs and eat these with a whole-food protein source such as meat, steak or eggs. These carbs cause a more moderate release of insulin. Keeping insulin levels in check after cardio is important in burning as much fat as possible."

I've come across this theory/approach before.....it certainly sounds good and it rather makes sense...but it's now "old-school" and not quite accurate.

Have you heard the saying "Fat burns in a carbohydrate flame"??? Something along the lines to suggest you need some carbs in your system in order to facilitate the fat-burning even more. I believe this to be the case. Working-out and/or doing aerobics on an empty stomach is disco (outdated).

I've ridden my bike for 2 hours on an empty stomach, and I've done other aerobics like swimming as well....all in the name of starting-out with low blood-sugar with the notion of forcing the body to sooner and more so burn fat. In theory is sounds good, but in practice my riding and aerobic activity was weak; far weaker then had I eaten a bit before hitting it.

When I ate before my exercise, I found I was more powerful and had more endurance then when I exercised w/o eating before hand. In fact, I found that I burned more calories overall because I had more energy and could push harder/longer. In a fasted state it didn't take long for me to feel weak, depleted and tired.

Example:

Fasted spinning/swimming 1,560 calories burned over 3 hours
Fed spinning/swimming 2,270 calories burned over 3 hours

In my fed state, I would eat an apple on the way in, then drink some protein-shake with fruit-juice 1 hour in, then the remainder of the shake 2 hours in. In all, my caloric intake from the apple & protein shake summed about 380....so the net was (2,270 - 380) 1,890...which is 330 more overall calories then my un-fed workout...PLUS, by working-out harder I'm sure I got more out of my workout in terms of EPOC (where you continue to burn calories and have an accelerated metabolism for hours/day afterwards). I'd also leave the gym feeling energetic and ready to take on the world. I'd be somewhat hungry, but not bad. In the un-fed state, I left the gym feeling like a tornado hit me and I could only count the seconds until I got myself in front of my refrigerator....ya see where this is going??

But hey, if you wake up in the morning and figure you'll do 20-30 minutes on the elliptical machine...fine, do it fasted....but otherwise plan on eating something before just about any activity.

The whole concept behind this theory is trying to force your body into burning more fat by manipulation. What if I don't eat? What if I take a fat-burner? How about drinking unsweetened grapefruit juice? How about coffee or tea?...I'd sit there and try to figure out some magic formula that will somehow make the fat melt faster.....it just doesn't exist. My nutritionist, who is Alan Aragon, told me to just get out there & exercise, and eat sensibly. In his most recent article, Alan reviews in depth nutrient timing and in sum, using Wrangell's words; it just doesn't apply to the average gym enthusiast...even those of us on an intense path. As I previously said....

....we can talk science, thoery and approach all day long, but in the end it's really just as simple as eating healthy, working the muscles, getting-in some cardio and (to lose weight) taking in less calories then are exerted. That and fantasizing about the Swedish Bikini Team!

What about the post workout meal window? Isn't it around 30min after weight training? Why do people lift weights and instead of eating right away, they do an hour of cardio and lose their post workout meal opportunity?

As I mentioned before, after weight-training you've depleted your body of a lot of blood-sugar and your body is in the state of burning fat as part of what continues to fuel your exercise....this is basically the same concept as doing aerobics on an empty stomach; you're taking advantage of a low blood-sugar condition and weasing a bit more fat-burn before shutting it down and walking out of the gym.

The interesting conflict is that after weight-training you're supposed to immediately "put it back" and get the carbs & protein into your body. I believe Wrangell made reference to a 15-minute window, but I've heard it's as much as 45 minutes to an hour. Still, it would seem to fly in the face of this concept to then engage in some aerobics in lieu of eating. When I asked Alan about this he heistated and just looked at me (probably thinking, damn this guy asks a lot of questions!!)...and then he just said; after doing heavy weights, it's okay to get in some light cardio, but keep it to 30 minutes and then eat immediately afterwards.

I admire that you're trying to get the most from your workout, but fret not: we're just splitting hairs.

 

[Wrangell]

My nutritionist, who is Alan Aragon, told me to just ...

get out there & exercise, and eat sensibly.........

it just doesn't apply to the average gym enthusiast​

...even those of us on an intense path.

Well said.

That's pretty much it ...in a nutshell ...... IMO.

I agree with Alan...... 110%.

 

[BikeSwimLaugh]

Yeah....and it just so happens to be the same advice you gave me some 4-5 months ago

 

[enz660]

yeah, whenever I lift or diet, I like to be all or nothing, thats why I like to learn about these small details so I don't waste my time with anything.

Today I did some cardio in the morning, then weight training for two hours after (I know, a bit long, but I included specific back & abs workouts this time). Drank 25g of protein plus 200mg of caffine + 25mg ephedrine, 25g of protein sipped during the workout, then 25g of protein after, and half a sandwich after. My hands were shaking after all this, I felt like I was about to pass out I worked myself so hard. I deff. have the will power do do anything required for a goal, just want proper info, thats all. can't wait to get to 5% body fat!!!

 

[BikeSwimLaugh]

Make sure you get some rest & recovery, and be sure to drink plenty of water! You could also pop some BCAA's before your workout...in theory is discourages catabolism and will help facilitate some better fat metabolism.

 

[enz660]

Make sure you get some rest & recovery, and be sure to drink plenty of water! You could also pop some BCAA's before your workout...in theory is discourages catabolism and will help facilitate some better fat metabolism.

Every serving of the protein shake has 5g of BCAA's included. If I have thee servings around my workout, thats about 15g, is that enough or should I purchase something in addition to that?

Note* Yesterday was the first time I have drank protein before and during the workout, for some reason I could go on longer, maybe it was the EC Stack?

 

[Wrangell]

yeah, whenever I lift or diet, I like to be all or nothing, thats why I like to learn about these small details so I don't waste my time with anything.

Today I did some cardio in the morning, then weight training for two hours after (I know, a bit long, but I included specific back & abs workouts this time).

Perhaps, but you can do a full body workout ( that also includes some back and ab work ) in 45 minutes to 1 hour. Did you do a full body workout ?

Curious - how can just putting some additional emphasis on back and abs push your workout to 2 hours ?

Drank 25g of protein plus 200mg of caffine + 25mg ephedrine, 25g of protein sipped during the workout, then 25g of protein after, and half a sandwich after.

What is the reason you take so much protein - 75 grams ? Wouldn't one post workout shake of protein be sufficient ?

My hands were shaking after all this, I felt like I was about to pass out I worked myself so hard. I deff. have the will power do do anything required for a goal, just want proper info, thats all. can't wait to get to 5% body fat!!!

Are you gearing up for a competition ?

 

[cobra03terminat]

hey guys whats bcaa?

 

[Wrangell]

hey guys whats bcaa?

' branched-chain amino acids ' or BCAA

 

[cobra03terminat]

ohh i see... thanks!!

 

[enz660]

is 5% too low or unhealthy? It would sure look great, depending on how difficult it will be to attain, I would like to get there. No, its not for competition, just for general fitness.