Some new Tri pics, Chillen
- Thread starter Chillen
- Start date
I'd prefer to get back to the health and fitness topics myself. As I said before, I was simply curious about learning more about some of your diet and training philosophies - nothing more.
That said, I was curious about your goal of putting on weight - muscle mass - while at the same not adding any measurable amount of fat beyond where you are now ...which is somewhere around 7% bf or so. Everything I've read both elsewhere on on this forum suggests it it very difficult to add any significant mas without adding some fat along the way - if not impossible.
In Lou Schuler's book " New Rules of Liftiing " ( NROL ) , he discusses the topic of lean athletes and their attempts to add muscle mass. He cites research which suggests if you currently do strength training and are LEAN - as you are - you need about 20 calories per pound of bodyweight JUST TO MAINTAIN the muscle mass you have and not lose it - let alone to add any muscle mass. Lou suggests that to ensure muscle GAINS if you are lean, it's more like 25 calories per pound of bodyweight. Which makes sense to me at least, since the rule of thumb I've seen for most ' average ' gym rats with normal body fat levels ( i.e 13% - 17 % ...or more ) is something like 16 calories per pound of bodyweight just to maintain your weight where it is.
So, in your case, you weight something like 153 lbs.at a very lean 7%. Using the NROL would put your ' muscle maintenance ' level of a calories at 3,060 calories and ' muscle growth ' level of calories at about 3,800 calories. I noticed though that you said you are now in the process of trying to add weight ( muscle ) and during this process you said you vary between 1,900 calories a day on on-exercise days and 2,400+ or so on days when ou do train.
Do you think it is possible at your weight of 153 lbs. - given how lean you are at 7% - to add any significant muscle mass at a 2,400 calorie level ?
Also, returning to my earlier question. My long term target bf% is 13% +/-.......something I've been at for about 20+ years so far.
Is there a bf% you want to keep close to for the next 10++++ years ?
Is it this 7 % / 8 % that you are now at your long term goal that you want to maintain ? Or is this 7 % / 8 % just some kind of ' short term cutting ' bf % you are now in ?
This is acceptable. And more akin to the integrity of the forum.
I am familiar with NROL. I used this in what I call my stupid bulk phase, where I wasnt listening to my bodily response---adequately. Now, I appropriately do, but this error did assist the road to the current condition. This assisted in narrowing down my MT Line, as I tracked the weight gain and the caloric content allong the way. 3,000c can even be high--dependent on the day we are talking. Sometimes with work being a killer, this can be low.
I have to train and then get to work, but I will impart information to your questions when I return. In the 2400c example, remember the day's activity and remember this is a caloric MT, that is "particular" for that day. No I could not gain any significant muscle growth theoretically at 2400c for this particular MT line. One has to consider, that the MT line for the next day could be higher than 2400c from the previous day (as an example). So the answer is no. I would theoretically have to look at the MT line of each day, and go over (of course) a fair amount. Law of energy balance.
Armed with the knowledge of the bulk, 3,800 is extremely high on ANY DAY (less exceptions of course)---with current activities when it pertains to the unwanted fat to muscle tissue growth ratio. If I hover around 3,000c when the 2400c is the MT line on the example I gave you, I will gain weight approximated close to the math equivelant of 1lb over time if----this day was the SAME everyday. The MT Line I have in excel fits me like a glove.
Theoretically, if I were to do an even bulk (meaning no flexing in calories), and using the 2400c as an example, I would range this between 2400c to 3,000c and not go over 3,000c. Another example for a DIFFERENT DAY, is 2600c (work day, with major training, etc), I then would mathematically do the same thing: range from 2600c to 3200c (in there somewhere), I would tend to favor the lower end of the surplus (like consuming about 3,000) for the 2600c example. Staying at 3000c to 3800 is not correct for me---everyday---I will blow up like a baloon in time.
Let me give you an example: In the bulk stage where I was reletively not very smart (lol), I ate averagely between 3000 to 4000c. I gained 20lbs in just over 3 months. (I just come of a defict diet mind you---so this played a role in this) From 155 approx to 175 approx. I was wearing large shirts, and was pretty good size--BUT, I did not like the muscle to fat tissue ratio, the fat accumulation out produced the muscle tissue. (and my pecs accumulated the middle age lower fat deposits we tend to get over 40, and I didnt like that). So I retreated, evaluated, and deficited it back off, and learned alot.
The bulk data suggests I gained just a tad over 1lb in one week over 12 weeks (3 months). On the surface, people would say this is great! But this is deceptive. Maybe age, maybe being older and slowing metabolism (even with training increasing this), lower testosterone, etc) the muscle to fat gain was not acceptable, it was more fat than muscle. The "flexes" in the MT line that varied, kept the gaining aspect lower, as some were higher and some were lower, so it evened out to a over a 1 pound per week.
Bare in mind, that the stupid part of the equation is I paid no mind to the MT line at the time, I just ate in the range specified.
Therefore some days could have been in deficit and others......were way over in the excess of 1300c per day. If you see what I am saying. So now I am paying attention to the MT line narrowed down, and this is smart. All I have is time. My arms were 16.5 (cold), waist 35, chest 45 at the time. Now, arm is 15.4 (cold), waist 29 to 30, and chest 43 (and lean). As a comparison. A slight loss yes, of course. But not a great one in the muscle sense. The retreat brought the reverse. good fat loss to muscle loss (with fat loss being better than the muscle loss--at least sort of, depends on how you look at it). On the surface it appears I should weigh more, but my leg size suffer, and they have been TOUGH to grow even in bulk, and have suffered the most in deficit, though I do squats, and gain strength (250lbs squat, 6 times, at 153lbs, is pretty good for a small guy)
The same MT lines for a 'particular' day was used, I averagely backed off about -300, and paralelled the mathematical equivelent of fat tissue loss in excel. It virtually matched it. Yes, muscle loss occurred, but not that great. With the bulk attempt and the deficit retreat, this is how I KNOW the MT line is fairly accurate. The data on both sides told me a great deal.
My body responds real well for nearly 50, really. My body responds very well with simple diet manipulations, this time if I bulk, I am armed with my errors of the past, and with my success in defcit dieting, and THIS is what its about. So, Im taking it slow with this education, and understand my optimum bulk area.
Anyway, this wont answer all your questions, but I will be back later, and continue. This type of dialogue is welcome. This discussion could help others on the forum.
Thanks for the reply--type wrangell Got to run
I am familiar with NROL. I used this in what I call my stupid bulk phase, where I wasnt listening to my bodily response---adequately. Now, I appropriately do, but this error did assist the road to the current condition. This assisted in narrowing down my MT Line, as I tracked the weight gain and the caloric content allong the way. 3,000c can even be high--dependent on the day we are talking. Sometimes with work being a killer, this can be low.
I have to train and then get to work, but I will impart information to your questions when I return. In the 2400c example, remember the day's activity and remember this is a caloric MT, that is "particular" for that day. No I could not gain any significant muscle growth theoretically at 2400c for this particular MT line. One has to consider, that the MT line for the next day could be higher than 2400c from the previous day (as an example). So the answer is no. I would theoretically have to look at the MT line of each day, and go over (of course) a fair amount. Law of energy balance.
Armed with the knowledge of the bulk, 3,800 is extremely high on ANY DAY (less exceptions of course)---with current activities when it pertains to the unwanted fat to muscle tissue growth ratio. If I hover around 3,000c when the 2400c is the MT line on the example I gave you, I will gain weight approximated close to the math equivelant of 1lb over time if----this day was the SAME everyday. The MT Line I have in excel fits me like a glove.
Theoretically, if I were to do an even bulk (meaning no flexing in calories), and using the 2400c as an example, I would range this between 2400c to 3,000c and not go over 3,000c. Another example for a DIFFERENT DAY, is 2600c (work day, with major training, etc), I then would mathematically do the same thing: range from 2600c to 3200c (in there somewhere), I would tend to favor the lower end of the surplus (like consuming about 3,000) for the 2600c example. Staying at 3000c to 3800 is not correct for me---everyday---I will blow up like a baloon in time.
Let me give you an example: In the bulk stage where I was reletively not very smart (lol), I ate averagely between 3000 to 4000c. I gained 20lbs in just over 3 months. (I just come of a defict diet mind you---so this played a role in this) From 155 approx to 175 approx. I was wearing large shirts, and was pretty good size--BUT, I did not like the muscle to fat tissue ratio, the fat accumulation out produced the muscle tissue. (and my pecs accumulated the middle age lower fat deposits we tend to get over 40, and I didnt like that). So I retreated, evaluated, and deficited it back off, and learned alot.
The bulk data suggests I gained just a tad over 1lb in one week over 12 weeks (3 months). On the surface, people would say this is great! But this is deceptive. Maybe age, maybe being older and slowing metabolism (even with training increasing this), lower testosterone, etc) the muscle to fat gain was not acceptable, it was more fat than muscle. The "flexes" in the MT line that varied, kept the gaining aspect lower, as some were higher and some were lower, so it evened out to a over a 1 pound per week.
Bare in mind, that the stupid part of the equation is I paid no mind to the MT line at the time, I just ate in the range specified.
Therefore some days could have been in deficit and others......were way over in the excess of 1300c per day. If you see what I am saying. So now I am paying attention to the MT line narrowed down, and this is smart. All I have is time. My arms were 16.5 (cold), waist 35, chest 45 at the time. Now, arm is 15.4 (cold), waist 29 to 30, and chest 43 (and lean). As a comparison. A slight loss yes, of course. But not a great one in the muscle sense. The retreat brought the reverse. good fat loss to muscle loss (with fat loss being better than the muscle loss--at least sort of, depends on how you look at it). On the surface it appears I should weigh more, but my leg size suffer, and they have been TOUGH to grow even in bulk, and have suffered the most in deficit, though I do squats, and gain strength (250lbs squat, 6 times, at 153lbs, is pretty good for a small guy)
The same MT lines for a 'particular' day was used, I averagely backed off about -300, and paralelled the mathematical equivelent of fat tissue loss in excel. It virtually matched it. Yes, muscle loss occurred, but not that great. With the bulk attempt and the deficit retreat, this is how I KNOW the MT line is fairly accurate. The data on both sides told me a great deal.
My body responds real well for nearly 50, really. My body responds very well with simple diet manipulations, this time if I bulk, I am armed with my errors of the past, and with my success in defcit dieting, and THIS is what its about. So, Im taking it slow with this education, and understand my optimum bulk area.
Anyway, this wont answer all your questions, but I will be back later, and continue. This type of dialogue is welcome. This discussion could help others on the forum.
Thanks for the reply--type wrangell Got to run
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sweet. i read the whole thing.
and what i dont get is when NROL talks about the 20 calories per pound of body weight to maintain. i weigh 160. that means i would need 3200 to maintain? that sounds high even for a bulk for ME(dont want to put on so fast)
i think that the 20 calorie/lb bw is way too broad a statement. it could be accurate if my metabolism was FAST but people are all different. we all dont need the same amount of energy.
and chillen. i did the same "stupid bulk" thing too. sounds exactly like what i did lol. i was gaining real fast. my noob gains got me from 118 to around 150 in a couple months. of course i put on some fat, but i stayed under 15% thats all i know.
the next bulk phase i do, is going to be a slow and steady bulk.
chillen. in my honest opinion(and i am seeing your side of the story too), i really hope that you do a slow bulk sometime. even if you go up to 10% bf, that is still very lean! you will still look great especially with the added muscle! in my eyes, maintaining 6-8% bf is really tough on yourself. i would allow a "season" for steady bulking, a "season" for cutting, and a "season" for maintenance if you only want strength.
its FUN to bulk anyway!!!! have some fun, you old coot!!!! hahaha just pokin fun, chillen!
obvoiusly, its up to you what you decide; you know what will make you happy
and what i dont get is when NROL talks about the 20 calories per pound of body weight to maintain. i weigh 160. that means i would need 3200 to maintain? that sounds high even for a bulk for ME(dont want to put on so fast)
i think that the 20 calorie/lb bw is way too broad a statement. it could be accurate if my metabolism was FAST but people are all different. we all dont need the same amount of energy.
and chillen. i did the same "stupid bulk" thing too. sounds exactly like what i did lol. i was gaining real fast. my noob gains got me from 118 to around 150 in a couple months. of course i put on some fat, but i stayed under 15% thats all i know.
the next bulk phase i do, is going to be a slow and steady bulk.
chillen. in my honest opinion(and i am seeing your side of the story too), i really hope that you do a slow bulk sometime. even if you go up to 10% bf, that is still very lean! you will still look great especially with the added muscle! in my eyes, maintaining 6-8% bf is really tough on yourself. i would allow a "season" for steady bulking, a "season" for cutting, and a "season" for maintenance if you only want strength.
its FUN to bulk anyway!!!! have some fun, you old coot!!!! hahaha just pokin fun, chillen!
obvoiusly, its up to you what you decide; you know what will make you happy
PLz help
Hey srry to bother u but do u have any idea on how to up my bench quickly??any advice would be appreciated
Hey srry to bother u but do u have any idea on how to up my bench quickly??any advice would be appreciated
An all out picture assault in the COL is forth coming, soon. At sub 8% BF. They are doing rather well. I have no complaints on overall body progress.
EDIT: They look better then these pics. I will let you know when I post the pics.
Thanks for asking!
ROCK ON!
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I agree. Post a new thread in the appropriate space on the forum, and myself and the others will assist you as much as we can.
There isnt enough information in your post to help you. I believe we need just enough diet and training history to provide more accurate assistance.
Best wishes to you, and be sure to make this thread.
Chillen
Yea, I am short sh@t, he, he.
While in the process of losing 30 pounds of unwanted fat tissue, I changed my goal plans. I love being lean. I never inspired to be big, rather medium, muscular, and lean. Diet and fitness has changed my life. I want others to feel this.
I am living proof that ones middle aged can change their bodies, if they want it bad enough. We only have one body and we must take care of it so it will take care of you.
I never knew even young and in my prime the sort of genetics I had. I never allowed my age to get in the way. I work with the things I can change and dont worry about the things I cant.
I hope you can inspire your Father to a healthier lifestyle. I wish you the best of luck.
Chillen
LOL, that's hilarious, he goes and finds a nearly year old topic about chillen's triceps and asks him about bench? Wha?
Just seems a pretty random place to ask about bench press ya know? haha.
I'd take it as a compliment Chillen
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