HIIT works, but friend says aerobics is bad?

[BikeSwimLaugh]

I just came back from my daughters birthday party. A friend came up to me and complimented me on my weight-loss (always nice)....he asked me what I was doing and then went on to explain that he was doing the similar thing until he started doing "Bursting".

Bursting???? So I asked him to describe it and he starts explaing how you go super-hard for a couple minutes, followed by a brief rest and then back to super-hard. Hello???? We call it HIIT. This guy is a semi-pro tennis player and looks amazing. He says he was doing okay until he started Bursting and it made all the difference. He swears it'll take me to the next phase.

Okay...I'm cool with HIIT, I know it works and effort-wise, time-wise it's the most effective thing going....BUT then he starts telling me something a bit disturbing. He says aerobics is the "biggest lie" and that doing long stretches of aerobics actually teaches the body to store more fat. Yep, he says my 3 hour rides on the bike place a demand on the body to store enough energy to provide me with that kind of demand: so my bike riding (albeit I'm sweating and burning calories) is counter-productive to what I'm trying to achieve....it's actually prompting my body to have greater storage capacity. What's more, right now I'm eating light so I'll lose weight, but as soon as I eat anything more then base needs, I'll gleefully put on weight for bike rides in the future.

Okay, I know it's not quite right.....but there is some merit to the notion that my body, given these long rides, will develop and adapt to the demand in some way as to store more energy/capacity. So here is my theory and tell me if I'm right:

He's wrong. Longer or more intense exercise helps create more efficient mitochondria (which are the powerhouses that produce energy in the cells)...this is what increases my bodies capacity to product energy so I can feed the muscles the energy they need.

I say, and from what I've learned here on this forum....calories in vs. calories out. Exercise burns calories, period. Some exercise (HIIT) can help burn calories even after you are done performing the exercise, but still...ALL exercise helps burn fat and when contrasted against caloric intake...there it is. Yeah?

 

[theleip]

I just came back from my daughters birthday party. A friend came up to me and complimented me on my weight-loss (always nice)....he asked me what I was doing and then went on to explain that he was doing the similar thing until he started doing "Bursting".

Bursting???? So I asked him to describe it and he starts explaing how you go super-hard for a couple minutes, followed by a brief rest and then back to super-hard. Hello???? We call it HIIT. This guy is a semi-pro tennis player and looks amazing. He says he was doing okay until he started Bursting and it made all the difference. He swears it'll take me to the next phase.

Okay...I'm cool with HIIT, I know it works and effort-wise, time-wise it's the most effective thing going....BUT then he starts telling me something a bit disturbing. He says aerobics is the "biggest lie" and that doing long stretches of aerobics actually teaches the body to store more fat. Yep, he says my 3 hour rides on the bike place a demand on the body to store enough energy to provide me with that kind of demand: so my bike riding (albeit I'm sweating and burning calories) is counter-productive to what I'm trying to achieve....it's actually prompting my body to have greater storage capacity. What's more, right now I'm eating light so I'll lose weight, but as soon as I eat anything more then base needs, I'll gleefully put on weight for bike rides in the future.

Okay, I know it's not quite right.....but there is some merit to the notion that my body, given these long rides, will develop and adapt to the demand in some way as to store more energy/capacity. So here is my theory and tell me if I'm right:

He's wrong. Longer or more intense exercise helps create more efficient mitochondria (which are the powerhouses that produce energy in the cells)...this is what increases my bodies capacity to product energy so I can feed the muscles the energy they need.

I say, and from what I've learned here on this forum....calories in vs. calories out. Exercise burns calories, period. Some exercise (HIIT) can help burn calories even after you are done performing the exercise, but still...ALL exercise helps burn fat and when contrasted against caloric intake...there it is. Yeah?

In the nicest way possible, you are both off.

Training for an extended period of time does tax the system and start to produce excess levels of cortisol, too much of this excess in cortisol can cause a relay of problems that can make your "in and out" function be altered from what it's normal state is. If you are feeding however during these sessions and re-balancing your electrolytes properly and maintaining certain levels of fuel then this become less and less of a issue and you can train more and more.

The EPOC of TRUE HIIT (which is not what he explained or what most people understand it to be) is mild anyway. With standard or even aggressive interval training no different then a hill walk.

Fat loss is about energy expenditure. Be it gardening or plyo drills you can achieve a negative expenditure. HIIT is not for everyone, and most people who do long cardio are doing it wrong and doing more damage then good. You may be one of them, I have no idea as I do not know how you train. Even high level athletes do it wrong which is why, sadly, someone will just burn out or injury to the point of no repair and they are out of the game.

Train Hard, Eat Harder.

Whatever method you use for fat loss, just be smart about it and do ONLY what you have to.

 

[BikeSwimLaugh]

In the nicest way possible, you are both off.

Training for an extended period of time does tax the system and start to produce excess levels of cortisol, too much of this excess in cortisol can cause a relay of problems that can make your "in and out" function be altered from what it's normal state is. If you are feeding however during these sessions and re-balancing your electrolytes properly and maintaining certain levels of fuel then this become less and less of a issue and you can train more and more.

I'm very good with fueling, supplements and even sleep.

The EPOC of TRUE HIIT (which is not what he explained or what most people understand it to be) is mild anyway. With standard or even aggressive interval training no different then a hill walk.

Eww....that's gonna stir-up a few forum members.

Fat loss is about energy expenditure. Be it gardening or plyo drills you can achieve a negative expenditure. HIIT is not for everyone, and most people who do long cardio are doing it wrong and doing more damage then good.

I don't doubt what you say....but I'd really like to hear some examples of such mistakes where people are doing more harm then good. Or how people doing cardio are doing it wrong. Again, not doubting you, just curious for some hard examples as a means of better understanding.

FWIW...I had a chat with my trainer/nutrionist. He says there are benefits to both High Intensity Interval Training (HIIT) and Low Intensity Sustained State (LIIS) exercise. His suggestion: mix it up but don't think one is better then the other, in the end it's a toss-up and actually equal in overall fat-burning.

The one thing he was clear on is that the empty-stomach approach is counter-productive and fed people burn more calories during AND afterwards!

EXCELLENT LINK... Read all 3 articles.

 

[theleip]

I don't doubt what you say....but I'd really like to hear some examples of such mistakes where people are doing more harm then good. Or how people doing cardio are doing it wrong. Again, not doubting you, just curious for some hard examples as a means of better understanding.

I would be hard pressed to show you people that HAVEN'T done damage or aerobic training in the wrong capacity. Excess aerobic training is the basis of most if my research in those with metabolic disorders. Beyond that you can't ignore protein synthesis and muscle tissue breakdown alone from training too long without feeds. Sorry this is just too broad of a subject, I am fine with discussing but you will have to state more specific questions.

FWIW...I had a chat with my trainer/nutrionist. He says there are benefits to both High Intensity Interval Training (HIIT) and Low Intensity Sustained State (LIIS) exercise. His suggestion: mix it up but don't think one is better then the other, in the end it's a toss-up and actually equal in overall fat-burning.

I agree that all aerobic training levels offer benefit. Like with most things some respond better than others to different styles of training.

EXCELLENT LINK... Read all 3 articles

I am aware of Alan's work, look for an interview soon.

 

[matt182]

I agree that post oxygen consumption in HIIT is hardly significant, thats a fact.

Tell your mate that he should stick to his bursts ;p
its clear he doesnt know much about aerobic training which is understanding (tennis)

It doesnt teach the body to store fat, and dont be concerned about cortisol as scary mawhaha

Did you know that the hormone increases recpetors on cells to INCREASE fat metablism.

I agree also about specific questions ;p

 

[BikeSwimLaugh]

I would be hard pressed to show you people that HAVEN'T done damage or aerobic training in the wrong capacity. Sorry this is just too broad of a subject, I am fine with discussing but you will have to state more specific questions.

That sounds pretty scary, I'd hate to think I'm doing damage. How about this: just give us some examples of good practices that we may not be aware of. What are the ABC's of good habits and what are some of the downfalls and common mistakes well-intentioned people do make? Like when I asked the doctor which supplements are good, he said "take a multi-vitamin and some fish oil"....can ya throw out anything? common mistakes, overlooked pointers, anything? I'm not asking you to prove anything, just wanna learn!

I am aware of Alan's work, look for an interview soon.

Alan is my "guy"....I see him every 3 weeks on a regular basis, he's my trainer/dietician/nutrionist...more cert's, degree's & qualificiations then anyone I've ever met. So why am I here? Just fun to chat and contrast info.

 

[theleip]

Dude then just read some girth and leave it at that, seriously being in Alan's hands is as bout as good as it gets.

As for pointers really if you are going to train that hard you need to eat hard, even if in a deficit. Overtraining is really undereating. Some quick take home points if training that hard...

-After 60 mins of straight training start getting fuel in (carb/protein mix)
-Have complete rest days often
-Don't neglect resistance and mobility training as importance to your aerobic and fat loss goals.
-It's all a big system of connect the dots, meaning everything is just as important as the next
-Don't restrict carbs unless you absolutely have to. I know for sure me and Alan are on the same page here.

My point is that it is okay to take a 3 hour bike ride in a caloric deficit, but feed yourself during it. Fat loss is about energy loss overall, not about how much you can burn yourself out in one session. Exercise in fat loss is just a means to burn energy and if done right preserve or gain muscle. When you burn into muscle or tax your CNS too much you are just defeating your purpose.

 

[buzz]

how to do cardio if you must,its a good read

 

[BikeSwimLaugh]

-After 60 mins of straight training start getting fuel in (carb/protein mix)
-Have complete rest days often
-Don't neglect resistance and mobility training as importance to your aerobic and fat loss goals.
-It's all a big system of connect the dots, meaning everything is just as important as the next
-Don't restrict carbs unless you absolutely have to. I know for sure me and Alan are on the same page here.

My point is that it is okay to take a 3 hour bike ride in a caloric deficit, but feed yourself during it. Fat loss is about energy loss overall, not about how much you can burn yourself out in one session. Exercise in fat loss is just a means to burn energy and if done right preserve or gain muscle. When you burn into muscle or tax your CNS too much you are just defeating your purpose.

REALLY good & solid advice....thanks!

Btw....here, from that article reference above, is the heart of my concern:

Endurance training has another ugly side – although fat oxidation increases in trained athletes, with conditioning, more and more of this fat comes from muscle triglyceride (23) – meaning less and less comes from adipose tissue. It seems the body learns to store muscle triglyceride where it’s being used (24), so it’s available for energy more quickly that it would be from adipose tissue – a phenomenon Charles Poliquin so eloquently describes as “Kobe beef thighs and butt, all plump and marbled with fat inside”.

So these long rides are essentially, to some degree, training my body (or prompting it to adapt) to store energy...and it would seem it may become difficult for me to rely on it to continue to lean me out. Still...as suggested, I'll just mix it up with my routines, continue to eat right and watch the caloric intake vs. output. So long as my progress continues to head in a positive direction, it's all good. Thanks all for the thoughts/tips!

 

[Wrangell]

REALLY good & solid advice....thanks!

Btw....here, from that article reference above, is the heart of my concern:

So these long rides are essentially, to some degree, training my body (or prompting it to adapt) to store energy...and it would seem it may become difficult for me to rely on it to continue to lean me out. Still...as suggested, I'll just mix it up with my routines, continue to eat right and watch the caloric intake vs. output. So long as my progress continues to head in a positive direction, it's all good. Thanks all for the thoughts/tips!

STORE energy ?

I know what you mean by that, but tell me, how many calories would you say you burn during one of these long rides ?

I mean you're only taking in 1,800 calories a day as it is - so along with those long rides that make up your 12 hours of training a week you should be generating a pretty healthy calorie deficit for the week wouldn't you say ?

 

[BikeSwimLaugh]

I know what you mean by that, but tell me, how many calories would you say you burn during one of these long rides ?

Great question. I wear a heart-rate monitor when I ride. Depending on which trail I ride (length, hill-steepness, intensity) my rides tend to burn about 650-700 calories per hour...which is pretty consistent with most calorie/exercise charts (given my height, weight, age, etc).

I will concede that over time my total calories-burned have decreased quite a bit. My original ride used to require 1,200 calories & 2 hours... it now takes about 850 calories and I'm done in 1.6 hours! Over time my speed has increased from a grunting grind to a moving-along pace...and I'm churning much higher gears, so I just peddle harder and keep the HR up...but then I get done faster! That's why I found new trails that run longer. To answer your question, my average ride depletes me of about 1,700 calories +/-. Some days I push hard, other days I cruise...mix it up. My longest ride when pushed hard indicates 2,400 calories over 2.8 hours....that's when I'm almost racing my record and cranking 160-165 HR. Cruise days are at 140 HR.

In all fairness, on those "ride" days I'm consuming more like 2,400 calories. I don't eat based on a set menu...I try to listen to my body, eat slowly, eat healthy and keep portions lean & light. Based on how much I exercise and how much I eat...I really feel I should be dropping weight faster. But I don't drop weight fast, I drop body-fat and somehow my weight just descends at a slow & gradual rate with occassional gains! Over the course of 8 months I've only seen the scale go down 27-pounds...that seems pretty lame for a guy working-out & exercising so much AND eating light. But then we look at my 14.2% body-fat loss and factor in muscle-gain offset and I suppose the picture looks better. We've covered this.

I mean you're only taking in 1,800 calories a day as it is - so along with those long rides that make up your 12 hours of training a week you should be generating a pretty healthy calorie deficit for the week wouldn't you say ?

I would ENTIRELY say I create all sorts of calorie deficit along with a stimulated metabolism and the right supplements and everything....which is pretty much why I come here whining about why I'm not getting the results I feel I should see.

I'm going in to get evaluated in another week. Over the last 3 weeks I've eaten light, worked-out, exercised and done everything right. When I go in, I will appear lighter & leaner....but you watch & see: the scale will not have dropped a frigin' pound and my body-fat will likely go down about .07%

Why won't that darn scale drop? How much muscle will my body add before it level's-off? I'm afraid if I scale-back on my exercise I won't get any results at all...as if my body has adjusted to this level and if I don't keep it up I'll reinflate. It's like I'm struggling with all my effort & might to make mediocre progress upstream against a heavy current....it's slow, hard and painstakingly difficult...and any hesitation will result in catastrophic setbacks. I know in my heart this isn't accurate, but this is how it feels.